Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

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Anthony P.
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Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Anthony P. » Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:55 am

Brian Howlett would like to see these changes in the supps for Historic 1.

HISTORIC 1 (HST1)
Any category car, prepared in accordance with the SCCA National Solo Rule Book and/or the SCCA 2016 supplemental HCS Class, with the following exceptions:
a. All cars of 1974 vintage or older, the following cars are eligible regardless of year of manufacture due to similarity to eligible 1974 cars and may use the current National PAX/RTP Index for HCS:

Alfa Romeo Spider (series 2 thru 1983, Alfa Romeo GTA, BMW 02 Series (all), Corvair (all), Ford Cortina (all) thru TC Mark III), Jensen Healey (all), Lotus Europa (type 46, 54 & 74), Lotus Elan (Type 26, 36, 45 & 50 only), Lotus Cortina (all), Datsun 1600 & 2000, Datsun 240Z, 260Z & 280Z(S30 models), MGB (all), MGC, MGB V8GT (all), MG Midget (all), Morgan +4 (all), 4/4 (all) & Plus 8 thru 1995, Porsche 914 (all), Porsche 911 thru Carrera 2.7 MFI and CIS, Porsche 912 (all), Triumph TR2 thru 6 (all) & Spitfire (all), VW Beetle (old thru 1979)
[Cars may be added or deleted by written appeal to the Board of Directors]


b. Class results are based on the entrant’s best time multiplied by the current National PAX/RTP Index for their SCCA Solo class plus any penalty. This Index is published in North American Pylon and other sources and is listed in Appendix C.

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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Anthony P. » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:03 pm

These are the rules of HCS as modified by the following clubs. Based on my research, I would propose these rules for HCS for within HIST 1.

Heritage Classic Class Rules
As developed by Tidewater Sports Car Club, Old Dominion Region SCCA, and Virginia Motorsport Club
(Differences from SCCA Heritage Classic Rules in italics)


Rationale: The purpose of Heritage Classic (HC) is to enable enthusiasts of sports cars, coupes, and
sedans from the early years of the SCCA to participate at SCCA Solo events with cars of similar
technology. This participation can range from those just wanting to drive these cars in a
competition setting, to those wanting to drive their classic car aggressively for a trophy position.
The core objective is to provide a fun experience at the local level for Heritage Classic car
enthusiasts through SCCA Regions offering this opportunity using a common set of rules.

Background: These cars from the 1940’s through the early 1970’s are an important part of
the history of not only the SCCA, but of the American automotive scene and are worthy of
being a part of the SCCA today so this history is not forgotten. The Heritage Classic category
is intended to encourage the use and enjoyment of these cars by their owners and other
event attendees.

Eligible Vehicles: Vehicles must be from model year 1974 or older and not produced by a
United States based manufacturer with engine displacement not exceeding 2650cc. Models
newer than 1974 but of the same generation will be permitted as a “continuation car” if not
fundamentally different from the 1974 model.


Vehicle must pass the mandatory safety inspection (tech) and be in compliance with
Section 3, of the current SCCA® National Solo® Rules

Classes: There are two classes; Heritage Classic Street (HCS) and Heritage Classic Race
(HCR). HCS is for street legal vehicles competing on street tires with common enthusiast
modifications. HCR is for race prepared vehicles competing on any tires with modifications
similar to those common “back in the day”. Additional safety requirements will apply to
HCR.

Local Region Options: The classes above and the rules that follow are offered for Regions
to use as shown OR Regions may modify them to suit their local needs. This includes the
number of classes, vehicles included/excluded, and/or specific allowances/restrictions
contained in the rules. The core objective is described in the “Rationale” above, but
specifics may be adjusted to fit the needs of the local participants so they can have fun with
their Heritage cars

Heritage Classic Street (HCS)
Authorized Modifications:
- All Solo® Rules Street Category allowances, plus allowances and requirements below.
- Vehicle must be considered “street legal” with normal road touring equipment (lights, wipers,
etc.) and capable of being licensed for normal road use in the United States.
- All modifications done shall be consistent with period correctness for the time (late 60s-early 70s). Safety items such as seats, harnesses, roll bars, etc. are not held to this expectation.
Body Allowances
- Body panels may be replaced with an OE equivalent and the original fenders may be flared provided no material is added or removed.
- Interior panels (door panels, kick panels, etc.) and headliner may be replaced with an OE equivalent and must cover any opening(s) the original panel(s) concealed. Seats may be replaced.
- Dash may be modified to accommodate alternate or additional gauges and switches, but must be complete and cover the original area.
- Steering wheel and steering column may be replaced.
- Spoilers and splitters are permitted, but shall be cosmetic only (does not exceed 3.5in from body in any direction) and/or period correct for the 70s or earlier. Any OEM or dealer-optional aero devices are permitted, regardless of dimensions.
Wheel and Tire Allowances
- Any wheels are allowed up to 15in diameter and up to 7in width.
-Any tires that are 200 TW or higher with a maximum width of 245mm as listed by the tire manufacture.
Body Electrical System Allowances
- Components and wiring are unrestricted. Alternator/generator may be replaced/upgraded (but not removed).
Brake System Allowances
- Components, lines, and hoses are unrestricted except for the following:
- Rotors must be of ferrous material.
- Rotors and drums must remain in original locations (outboard vs. inboard).
- ABS may not be fitted unless original.
Suspension and Steering Allowances
- Alternate springs are allowed, but must be of the same type as OE and attach at original locations.
- Lever shock absorbers may be modified. They may be replaced with tube shocks unless they also serve as suspension component such as a control arm (Example; front shocks on an MGB).
- Alternate bushings may be used in original location.
- Hydraulic power steering may be added if steering gear is a direct fit and steering geometry is not altered.
Engine and Drive Train Allowances
- Engine may be updated to any available from the manufacturer (provided it does not exceed the 2650cc displacement limit) for that model through its generations up to the 1974 model year.
- EXAMPLE #1: a 1275 cc engine from a late model Sprite/Midget may be used in a Bugeye Sprite, however, a Spitfire or MGB motor would NOT be allowed).
- EXAMPLE #2: a 1972 Honda Civic with 1168cc engine may upgrade to the 1275cc engine from the 1974 model year, but not the 1488cc engine (debuted in 1975).
- Engine must be externally stock appearing, with engine internals unrestricted.
- Induction system must be same type as original to the vehicle, as available up to 1974 (fuel injection, mechanical injection, or carbs), but individual components (intake manifold, carbs, injectors, controllers, etc.) are unrestricted. Note: Turbocharger or supercharger (if equipped) must remain original.
- Electronic ignition is allowed, but the trigger and distribution of spark must be from the distributor, unless the standard system was otherwise. Individual components of the ignition system may be replaced or upgraded.
- Exhaust manifold and exhaust system may be replaced with alternate components. - Original drivetrain layout must be preserved.
- Any alternate production car transmission are allowed. No racing gearboxes.
- Clutch components, driveshaft, and mounts are unrestricted
- Cooling system components and emission control components/systems may be modified, replaced, or removed.
- Battery may be replaced and relocated.

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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by David Barrish » Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:57 pm

Brian and Anthony,

This looks like a great start.

Given the list of additional cars, I would request the addition of: E21 BMW (all). The cars were produced from 1977-1983.

Anthony,

The posted attachment makes no mention of tread ware for the tires, will we using those listed as 200 or harder?

Under Body Allowances, it is stated;
- Body panels may be replaced with an OE equivalent and the original fenders may be flared provided no material is added or removed.

I would request that we remove "no material is added or removed". If a Mini Cooper upgrades from 10" front wheels to 12"/13" they are going to remove a portion off the fenders. If an Austin Healy Sprite attempts to add larger tires to the rear of their car they are going to have to add material to reshape the fenders. It goes on for these narrow fended older cars.

Engine and Drive Train Allowances
- Engine may be updated to any available from the manufacturer (provided it does not exceed the 2650cc displacement limit) for that model through its generations up to the 1974 model year.

Will we be limiting the engine displacement to 2650cc? Cars with 164 cubic inches. or larger are already over this limit?

Induction system must be same type as original to the vehicle, as available up to 1974 (fuel injection, mechanical injection, or carbs), but individual components (intake manifold, carbs, injectors, controllers, etc.) are unrestricted.

Will newer cars be allowed to replace the fuel injection systems with carburetors?

Will older cars be allowed to replace their carburetors with fuel injection?

Suspension and Steering Allowances
- Alternate springs are allowed, but must be of the same type as OE and attach at original locations.

Would this mean that the addition of an adjustable spring perch is not legal?

Would it also mean that the upper spring hat has to be as installed in the car from the manufacture? No adjustable upper spring Hat?


Again, I have a 1982 BMW E21 that I have run with the group and would like to continue to do so at this time. Am I "good to go given the above proposal?

David

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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Anthony P. » Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:42 pm

David Barrish wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:57 pm
Brian and Anthony,
This looks like a great start.
Thank you -
David Barrish wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:57 pm
The posted attachment makes no mention of tread ware for the tires, will we using those listed as 200 or harder?

For HCS yes, ill add it.
David Barrish wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:57 pm
I would request that we remove "no material is added or removed".
They are welcome to go SP if they are going to chop up their car. I think the limitation is reasonable to keep people from having to modify their fenders. But im sure others will chime in.
David Barrish wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:57 pm
Engine and Drive Train Allowances
Will we be limiting the engine displacement to 2650cc? Cars with 164 cubic inches. or larger are already over this limit?
If they want to run the HCS index then yes. Again, all other national classes would still be eligible for HIST 1.
David Barrish wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:57 pm
Induction system must be same type as original to the vehicle, as available up to 1974 (fuel injection, mechanical injection, or carbs), but individual components (intake manifold, carbs, injectors, controllers, etc.) are unrestricted.
Will older cars be allowed to replace their carburetors with fuel injection?
Will newer cars be allowed to replace the fuel injection systems with carburetors?
It would seem no as they must remain the same "type" , but you could upgrade said fuel injectors. or carbs
David Barrish wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:57 pm
Suspension and Steering Allowances
- Alternate springs are allowed, but must be of the same type as OE and attach at original locations.
Would this mean that the addition of an adjustable spring perch is not legal?
No it means you could add them, but they must remain at the stock location. Kinda like street class.
David Barrish wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:57 pm
Would it also mean that the upper spring hat has to be as installed in the car from the manufacture? No adjustable upper spring Hat?
Correct.
David Barrish wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:57 pm
Again, I have a 1982 BMW E21 that I have run with the group and would like to continue to do so at this time. Am I "good to go given the above proposal?
Im certainly not going to protest you, although until its added I suppose someone could. Probably not until you start winning right? I would support adding the BMW to the list.

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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by David Barrish » Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:41 pm

Ok, Taking Brian's list of cars that can run our local Historic 1 we are embracing displacement larger than 2650 cc?

Not sure I get the adjustable spring perch. If I am running a coil over replacement for the stock spring I get the adjustable spring perch? I understand the stock, non adjustable top spring hat.

Again, locally we are ok with fender flairs in Historic 1?

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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Brian Howlett » Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:06 am

Hello,

Anthony 1st and foremost were not here to build a car for David Barrish. I submitted a proposal to allow HCS prepared cars in Historic 1 and I also included a number of cars that should qualify based on similarity of platform to cars manufactured prior to 1974. The HCS rules you publish are NOT the SCCA published version that I proposed and what we have been running under for the last 3 years. Please do not muddy the waters at this time by posting a modified HCS set of rules from some other region.

2ndly David Barrish has been repeatedly told that his car does NOT qualify for inclusion in Historic 1 and/or HCS Class. He should be running in Historic 2 and I believe he is the one that initiated that class to begin with.

Anthony please remove the Modified version of the HCS rules and post the SCCA version.

Brian
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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Anthony P. » Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:21 am

Sorry Brian,

Someone could easily take advantage of those rules to dominate historic class. This has been done in regions on the East Coast. I will not withdraw what is essentially a proposal of HCS wording. The other option I see is no HCS, since there are no advisory committees to write to and no rule changes since its proposal.

What I have read thus far. HCS was created by a vocal minority as a place for the GP cars to run after civics were added. I fail to see how Hist1 falls apart with national indexing.

I'm looking for the most effective, durable solution, that will last.

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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by David Barrish » Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:26 am

Brian,

Thank you for the clarification for cars built up to to 1974 and our Historic 1 run group. The HCS states; Eligible Vehicles: Vehicle must be from model year 1974 or older and not produced by a United States based manufacturer.

I do not see the displacement limit in the SCCA version of the HCS rules, that settles that.

My goal with the questions starts with helping provide a resource for those that might be thinking about joining the class. If we are building and running a local class we should make sure that participants understand the HCS rules are a guide line and our local Historic 1 configuration is the "go to" for rules.

If someone builds a car to the National level of preparation and finds themselves at a competitive disadvantage they should be able to understand why.

Would the inclusion of cars built from beyond 1974 with ever increasing displacement and manufactures options be better served in the next class, Historic 2?

David

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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Brian Howlett » Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:57 am

Directors,

I'm good with using the HCS rules used by the Tidewater Sports Car Club, Old Dominion Region SCCA for our Historic 1 class as long as we allow all the cars I listed as being eligible. Some of those cars have larger displacements than what they allow at 2650 cc. If we have a car that dominates then we do have the option "Cars may be added or deleted by written appeal to the Board of Directors" of removing said car.

Brian
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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by David Barrish » Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:47 pm

Attached, a link to the HCS rules that Brian referenced.

http://www.odr-scca.org/content/view/74/1/

Given that we have both Historic 1 and 2 on the books, we could have all cars that are "1975 and newer, as well as all cars, early and later, with displacement greater than 2650cc" run in Historic 2.

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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Anthony P. » Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:28 pm

David Barrish wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:47 pm
Attached, a link to the HCS rules that Brian referenced.

http://www.odr-scca.org/content/view/74/1/

Given that we have both Historic 1 and 2 on the books, we could have all cars that are "1975 and newer, as well as all cars, early and later, with displacement greater than 2650cc" run in Historic 2.
Seems reasonable. Helps take care of the big bore situation.

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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Brian Howlett » Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:21 pm

That makes absolutely no sense to me! Please let the cars I proposed run in Historic 1 regardless of displacement
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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Anthony P. » Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:50 pm

So the other thing worth noting is that in the HCS rules that also include cars like Doug T's since it started manufacture in 1974. I noticed he was competing in HIST1 but not on your list. Is that by design?

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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Doug Teulie » Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:40 pm

Brian Howlett wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:57 am
.... "Cars may be added or deleted by written appeal to the Board of Directors" of removing said car.
Brian
This is some of my observations. Thank you Brian and Anthony for taking the time to bring this issue to a conversation for consideration. For those who don’t know much about HCS or HIST1 I have listed some points for consideration. I have no intent in building a class for me personally but I do have interest in our club providing a place for classic cars to play and drivers to enjoy the sport. HIST1 as a class can change or remain the same however I do think we can make some improvements.

Background:
HIST1 is run as a PAX class with cars that are from a defined manufactured period.
The PAX values that are available in HIST1 include Street (SS-HS), Street Prepared (SSP-FSP), Street Mod categories, Prep categories (XP-FP), Mod categories (?) and CST. CST is a set of car modification allowances that covers a wide breath. HCS is a proposed additional set of car modification allowances for use within HIST1 that covers a wide breath.

It appears to me that HCS has been used to allow older cars to have a place in Solo in other regions. I have found HCS used as a "CLASS" in other regions. I have looked at several regions and found that most of the time, one car is registered in the HCS Class. Sometimes that Class has two drivers using the same car. The typical cars that run in the HCS Classes in other regions are 4 cylinder, low horse power cars with minimal prep that do not take full advantage of the allowances. When PAX is calculated they look at participation and if mostly slow cars make up the field the PAX is adjusted to be soft (HCS 2020 = .794).

To put the HCS PAX index into perspective look at GS=.792 , ES=.793 and HCS=.794. If an ES “stock/street” car runs in HIST1 using the ES allowances it has very little PAX margin in comparison (.001) to the same ES car that has taken the full advantage of the HCS performance allowances. HCS modification allowances make running “street PAX” difficult to justify in HIST1. With the addition of HCS it is likely that the HIST1 class will become a .794 mod scratch class like CST.

I think it is to our advantage to look ahead when making changes. Changes can be good but we should be responsible when possible.
HCS is a set of car modification allowances. If adopted, car owners can build or modify cars to a spec that is unique and outside the rest of the Solo 2 prep rules. After a car is modified to the extent of the HCS allowances it will be difficult and potentially expensive to reconfigure it back to SCCA Street or Street Prepared. It will be a sad day if someone, using the “rules,” spends the time and money to develop a car (that is 50 years old) to take full advantage of the HCS modification allowances only to find that the car is singled out as an over dog and removed from the HCS listing. I believe that car would then be eligible for HIST1 with a CST index of .858 (.064 setback adjustment).
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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Brian Howlett » Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:12 pm

Direcetors,
Please allow HCS as it is stated in the SCCA classification to run in Historic 1 for the remainder of the 2020 season (as we have been doing for the past 3 years). We can work on a work around for the future years with modifications as some people seem to want. At this time there is NO car that has taken advantage of our HCS rules and I see no reason to over react at this time. PLEASE allow us to run as we have.
Thank You,
Brian
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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by xrotaryguy » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:22 pm

Anthony,

It was nice chatting with you at practice Saturday. As others have pointed out, and as the 2016 HC rules state, the purpose of Heritage Classic HCS (the race class is mostly unused here in SoCal) is to enable enthusiasts of early sports carts to enjoy competition with similar cars and a common set of rules. If not for HC, cars like Morgans, MGs, and even Corvairs have nowhere else to be competitive, especially when modestly prepared. Racing with CalClub is great because of the way this class is organized. When I race in Phoenix, there are always cars like Midgets, 914s, etc. but not necessarily a class for them to run in - a real letdown!

There have been a couple changes along the way, all of which were aimed at allowing more, similar cars into the class. First the cutoff year was changed from 1969 to 1974. This allowed a broader range of cars which were not necessarily as competitive elsewhere. Then we began allowing US cars under 3.0 liters. Or at least it was explained to me this way. I have never seen any regional version of the HCS rules in print. Anyway, this rule allowed my Corvair and could also bring in the Pinto or Vega. I view all these changes as being positive and good for the health of the class.

I understand the concern that a person could "abuse" the rules to build a ringer and dominate HST/HCS. I understand the desire to look forward. Though I do believe this should be done in such a way that we continue to attract early sports cars, coupes, and sedans.

Anthony[/b], you commented on Saturday that you see no reason why a 50 year old car couldn't simply PAX in a national class like FSP or similar. Here are a couple reasons why that doesn't work well for older cars.
1. For example, my Corvair has a carburetor. There's no modern class that makes any relevant reference to carburetors or the things that make them work well. My Corvair wasn't even supposed to have "a" carburetor. It was supposed to have FOUR carburetors! Back in the day, swapping a single Holley 4-barrel carb for a stock multi-carb setup was commonplace. Kits included different manifolds and a whole host of bits and pieces that ST, SP, and SM don't mention. My car even has an additional intake manifold which feeds the two stock manifolds which are cast into the cylinder head. Autocross rules back then took these things into account but now they don't. If we adhere to the rules I end up in... SM? Even then my car is full of mysterious parts the class doesn't address.
2. Or my quick steering arms. Those aren't allowed until Street Mod. Honestly, the fast arms make the Corvair steering barely acceptable. The stock steering is like driving a dump truck, just as you'd expect from 1969.
3. We're just scratching the surface here. Old cars are FULL of parts and modifications that make no sense in today's classing system.

Anthony, you also mentioned on Saturday that HST/HCS hasn't drawn many cars, which is really what we want. Granted, it's not quite as full as CAM. However, there have been days when HST/HCS had 7 or 8 cars. The class isn't exactly small. It's growing.
Brian Howlett wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:12 pm
Direcetors,
Please allow HCS as it is stated in the SCCA classification to run in Historic 1 for the remainder of the 2020 season (as we have been doing for the past 3 years). We can work on a work around for the future years with modifications as some people seem to want. At this time there is NO car that has taken advantage of our HCS rules and I see no reason to over react at this time. PLEASE allow us to run as we have.
SUGGESTION: I certainly agree.
RATIONAL: Whatever rules changes, if any, I feel we should finish the season as is. Just seems fair.
Brian Howlett wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:57 am
I'm good with using the HCS rules used by the Tidewater Sports Car Club, Old Dominion Region SCCA for our Historic 1 class as long as we allow all the cars I listed as being eligible. Some of those cars have larger displacements than what they allow at 2650 cc.
SUGGESTION: No 2650 cc limit
RATIONAL: I personally would like to keep cars like the Datsun 280Z and my Corvair in HST. Again, the objective is to bring cars in and 2650 cc omits quite a few cars right away. We've got several Z cars which have come to the events off and on and I don't want to chase them away. I really thought we had a "US cars under 3000 cc" rule in place. If we want a displacement restriction (US cars certainly need a displacement restriction), I would prefer 3000 cc.

SUGGESTION: Don't start with the Tidewater rules set. If any changes are made, we should continue with, and modify the SCCA rules set that we've been using all this time.
RATIONAL: All the competitors thus far have been referring to the current rules and it wouldn't be fair to suddenly throw a wrench into the competition.
https://www.scca.com/pages/solo-cars-and-rules
https://cdn.connectsites.net/user_files ... 1464904752
If we have a car that dominates then we do have the option "Cars may be added or deleted by written appeal to the Board of Directors" of removing said car.
SUGGESTION: None
RATIONAL: If it makes the rest of the drivers happy, I guess an appeal would be fine.
Any wheels are allowed up to 15in diameter and up to 7in width.
SUGGESTION: Leave wheel dimensions unrestricted, ESPECIALLY wheel diameter.
RATIONAL: Obsolete tires

Tall profile 200TW tires don't exist which makes period-correct wheels for the Corvair obsolete. The final drive ratio is effectively made lower. I'd be stuck fabricating a new ring gear or welding a different 2nd gear ratio into my transmission to avoid shifting into 3rd gear on CalClub's fast autocross tracks. Technically transmission internals and differential internals are unrestricted in HCS but custom gears cost big bucks! Gear box internals for these old cars were more available back in the 70s but they were not common. Now they're made of unobtainium. I realize 17" wheels were not common in the 60s but neither were 40 series tires.
Note: Turbocharger or supercharger (if equipped) must remain original.
SUGGESTION: Good!
RATIONAL: This is the only gem from the Tidewater rules. I don't know what import car had a turbo back then. However, GM turbo'd the Corvair from '62 to '66 and CalClub modified the regional sub regs to allow the Corvair and other US cars under 3.0 liters. I've considered a twin scroll turbo more than once. Please help me save my money!
Brian Howlett wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:06 am
Please do not muddy the waters at this time by posting a modified HCS set of rules from some other region.
SUGGESTION: Agreed
RATIONAL: The cars we're all driving are all already prepped for CalClub's / SCCA's version of the rules. (though again, the turbo restriction is fair)
https://www.scca.com/pages/solo-cars-and-rules
https://cdn.connectsites.net/user_files ... 1464904752

Note:
HST-2 is not listed when going through registration. I seem to recall that being by design from one of the Tuesday conference calls. The year limit for HST-1 bumped up from 69 to 74 and HST-2 went bye-bye. David Barrish is currently stuck racing his E21 in ES or something similar where he is not competitive. He's not legal in HCS at all. Maybe it's time to bring back HST-2 for older, 80s vintage cars like David Barrish's car. The 80s cars are rising in value and soon they'll all want a place to race. HST-2 is not a PAX but at least it's a place where 80s hardware could compete.
Brian Jackson
69 Chevy Corvair Monza

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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Anthony P. » Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:14 am

I wont quote what's listed above regarding carbs n stuff. But its completely open in SP.... do what ever you want to your intake up to the head.

From SP
15 engine
"Induction allowances are as follows: 1. Carburetors, fuel injection, and intake manifolds are unrestricted subject to Section 15.10.D. Alternate throttle linkage and connections to facilitate installation of allowed induction systems are permitted but may serve no other purpose. If an induction system item is allowed to be removed and its original mounting bracket can be removed by simply unbolting it, the bracket may be removed as well."

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Ed T
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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Ed T » Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:13 pm

I have been following this discussion closely online and offline with the rest of the board. I want to clarify that my personal position is for Cal Club to be inclusive and flexible enough for all Historic competitors to have a fun and fair place to play.

That being said, I find the intricacies of HCS difficult to follow in the posts. I count there are 4 separate threads on the issue, two public and two internal within the board. The opposing opinions means some people will be unhappy, but that is also a hallmark of compromise.

Would it be possible for the Historics competitors to call in to our February monthly meeting and discuss what they want? I think a call would really flesh out the issues better than the long posts on these forums. Our next call is February 18 at 7:00pm. The call-in instructions is on solo2.com's front page calendar. I encourage all those concerned to call in and participate in the process. If you choose not to call in, then your position on how the Historics class shall move forward may be unrepresented.
ES #711 2003 Toyota MR2 Spyder

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Rick Brown
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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Rick Brown » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:31 pm

After reading through this and talking with several people, my opinion is to approve Brian's suggestion in the first post, assuming this is something all Historic competitors agree with. However, remove the reference to SCCA 2016 supplemental HCS Class. First, it is not a supplemental SCCA class, and second the PAX index for it seems highly flawed. My mistake adding it to MSR thinking it was a supplemental class. I think we stick with what we have and adjust as the Historic 1 competitors recommend.
Since light is faster than sound...many people look bright until they speak...

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Sean Fenstermacher
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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Sean Fenstermacher » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:54 pm

What will HCS's index be under this new proposal?

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Doug Teulie
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Car#: 99
Location: Orange County CA

Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Doug Teulie » Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:17 pm

Sean Fenstermacher wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:54 pm
What will HCS's index be under this new proposal?
Doug Teulie wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:40 pm
To put the HCS PAX index into perspective look at GS=.792 , ES=.793 and HCS=.794. If an ES “stock/street” Morgan runs in HIST1 using the ES allowances it has very little PAX margin in comparison (.001) to an ES Morgan that has taken the full advantage of the HCS performance allowances. HCS modification allowances make running “street PAX” difficult to justify in HIST1. With the addition of HCS it is likely that the HIST1 class will become a .794 mod scratch class like CST.
What would HCS=.794 look like if a 2527lb Porsche 911 Carrera 2.7 starting with 210 hp ran with all the HCS modification allowances that include any bore/stroke/compression/intake with open carbs or FI/ any trans ratios/ springs/ any wheel....? WOW!
Doug T
PSCC CSCC #99 /SCNAX SD #151 LT Points 20,955.
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TEAM DHE/FAST 1980 KARMANN 8V FSP MK1 RED SCIROCCO
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David Barrish
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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by David Barrish » Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:47 pm

Heritage Classic Street (HCS)
Authorized Modifications:
- All Solo® Rules Street Category allowances, plus allowances and requirements below.
- Vehicle must be considered “street legal” with normal road touring equipment (lights, wipers,
etc.) and capable of being licensed for normal road use in the United States.
- All modifications done shall be consistent with period correctness for the time (late 60s-early 70s). Safety items such as seats, harnesses, roll bars, etc. are not held to this expectation.

As stated "Heritage Classic Street" [HCS] are Authorized Modifications, to the cars listed by class, in the "Street" section of the SCCA rule book. These "Authorized Modification" reflect the reality that these older cars are not exactly as the were delivered by the manufactures. Add to that the tires that were available "in the day" are no longer being manufactured.

Our mix of older cars fall into a blend of "Street", "Prepared" and "Mod". Again, each of these have an established index, by class. The list of "Authorized Modifications" is the key that allows older cars to run in other than OE.

Historic 1, is for cars manufactured up to the end of 1974.

Historic 2, would be for cars manufactured from 1975.

David Barrish
Last edited by David Barrish on Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Doug Teulie
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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Doug Teulie » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:29 pm

David Barrish wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:47 pm
Heritage Classic Street (HCS)
Authorized Modifications:
- All Solo® Rules Street Category allowances, plus allowances and requirements below.
- Vehicle must be considered “street legal” with normal road touring equipment (lights, wipers,
etc.) and capable of being licensed for normal road use in the United States.
- All modifications done shall be consistent with period correctness for the time (late 60s-early 70s). Safety items such as seats, harnesses, roll bars, etc. are not held to this expectation.

As stated "Heritage Classic Street" [HCS] are Authorized Modifications, to the cars listed by class, in the "Street" section of the SCCA rule book. These "Authorized Modification" reflect the reality that these older cars are not exactly as the were delivered by the manufactures. Add to that the tires that were available "in the day" are no longer being manufactured.

Our mix of older cars fall into a blend of "Street", "Prepared" and "Mod". Again, each of these have an established index, by class. The list of "Authorized Modifications" is the key that allows older cars to run in other than OE.

Historic 1, is for cars manufactured up to 1974.

Historic 2, would be for cars manufactured from 1975.

David Barrish
David, That looks like a new proposal up for conversation.
Doug T
PSCC CSCC #99 /SCNAX SD #151 LT Points 20,955.
TEAM DHE/FAST 1976 KARMANN 8V FSP MK1 SILVER SCIROCCO
TEAM DHE/FAST 1980 KARMANN 8V FSP MK1 RED SCIROCCO
Need VW parts?--->http://www.parts4vws.com Need Wax?--> Mother's

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xrotaryguy
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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by xrotaryguy » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:10 pm

Doug,

A 911 could certainly be prepped to be extremely fast, especially a turbocharged and fuel injected 74 model. At least one region actually excludes the 911, probably for this very reason.

Adding US cars means a turbocharged Corvair with enough mods could yield the same results. A good reason to keep turbos stock.

At the same time, we want to bring in as many cars as possible and most cars will show up already modified from 20+ years ago.

I think the ability to protest a car is one good way to handle both situations and still allow as many cars as possible.

I think David's proposals may be a good way to blend 80s cars into the mix as well. However, it's probably wise to take this one step at a time.
Brian Jackson
69 Chevy Corvair Monza

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xrotaryguy
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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by xrotaryguy » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:26 pm

Perhaps I'm mistaken about the 911 exclusion from some regions. The Old Dominion Region SCCA excludes the 914/6 (and a TVR plus some others). That may be what I was remembering.
Brian Jackson
69 Chevy Corvair Monza

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