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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:59 pm
by Doug Teulie
xrotaryguy wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:10 pm
Doug,

A 911 could certainly be prepped to be extremely fast, especially a turbocharged and fuel injected 74 model. At least one region actually excludes the 911, probably for this very reason.
Brian,
Updating the Cal Club supplementary regulations can bring some positive changes and this conversation is a step toward making improvements.

I am not sure you understand the point of my post above so forgive me if I am wrong about that.

First we have many auto-x 911s in Southern California that have modifications that are not far from HCS allowances. I enjoy seeing them run and I know several of the drivers. We attend meets and go on drives with some of them. I would love to see 20 of them run in HIST1 at every event.

My point is that the PAX for HCS is so soft it is not in alignment with any SCCA Solo2 class in the National Solo rule book. HCS is not listed in the Solo2 rule book and the SEB does not maintain Heritage Classic. The CAL CLUB 2020 Supplementary Regulations do not have an allowance for driver's to use HCS. It is up to the regions to adopt or reject HCS in part or in whole. As presented by Howard Duncan, HCS was created as a street tire scratch class for consideration at only the local level and a stepping stone to PREPAIRD to appease the former GP participants. This is a very different charter from HIST using Solo2 PAX in Cal Club even if HCS is presented as place for pre 75 cars to run. HCS if adopted is really a catch all class like XP or CST. The motor modification allowances are for PREPAIRD classes.

The modification allowances within any rule set encourage participants to use the full set of modifications otherwise the allowances would not be listed. When people make modifications outside of the allowances that becomes abuse and that is what a protest is for. It is not abuse to build a car using the published rules in the SCCA rule book and or CAL CLUB Supplementary Regulations. If someone builds a car that does not fit a class the car falls into a catch all class like XP or CST. If HIST1 drivers want to run scratch in a go for broke fashion and make modifications with almost no PAX adjustment over stock that is OK for them to want that however, this is a different charter from HIST in Cal Club. The region year end PAX listing will be very interesting. A change of this magnitude requires review and we are doing that now.

I hope that helps.

Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:57 am
by David Barrish
At this last event, at the Saturday practice a "first time" to an event car was in attendance. The car is a 1988 BMW E30 Sedan. The car has most of its interior, no headliner. The seats were not stock. The motor was stock. The top hats were stock, the springs were H&R and the struts were Bilstein sports. So, upgraded but not able to adjust camber.

The rims were 15x8 and the tires were 205 50 15 Toyo's with a 200 tw. The rims and tires were inside the stock fenders.

The SCCA, Section 13, "Street Class" with the "HCS allowances" would have the car running in "GS" 3 Series (6-cyl, non-M3; E30,E36) (1984-98)

Per my proposal, the car would run in Historic 2, GS.

Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:05 am
by Sean Fenstermacher
David Barrish wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:57 am
At this last event, at the Saturday practice a "first time" to an event car was in attendance. The car is a 1988 BMW E30 Sedan. The car has most of its interior, no headliner. The seats were not stock. The motor was stock. The top hats were stock, the springs were H&R and the struts were Bilstein sports. So, upgraded but not able to adjust camber.

The rims were 15x8 and the tires were 205 50 15 Toyo's with a 200 tw. The rims and tires were inside the stock fenders.

The SCCA, Section 13, "Street Class" with the "HCS allowances" would have the car running in "GS" 3 Series (6-cyl, non-M3; E30,E36) (1984-98)

Per my proposal, the car would run in Historic 2, GS.
David,

HCS is a class in itself with its own allowances and thus PAX index.
It is not a "modifier" for other existing SCCA classes.
In your example, the car would need to be prepped for G-Street guidelines (1 sway bar, shocks, +/- 1" wheel diameter, etc..) to qualify for GS index. The H&R springs and wheel would disqualify you for GS.
If prepped for HCS, the car could then qualify for HCS index.
If prepped outside of either GS or HCS guidelines, you could class it as CST if there is no other qualifying SCCA class I imagine, so for example HIST-2 CST.

Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:40 am
by Rick Brown
My opinion, remove the HCS wording from the proposal. Just stick with our local class with modifications agreed upon by local competitors. HCS is not an SCCA supplemental class and obviously has a screwed up PAX.

Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:10 pm
by David Barrish
To Rick's point, let's keep it local.

I would ask for a class that lets the newer, old cars run as a group. My request is for cars starting in 1975 that are not apart of the continuation of the Historic 1 list of cars.

The preparation of the cars would be to the intent of the current SCCA rule book. Again, to Rick's point on "modifications agreed upon by local competitors", I will work with those that have a car that they would like to run in the group. The goal would be to have a place for cars, like the BMW that ran the practice this last weekend, to compete in on Sunday.

I would like the opportunity to work with the guidelines built into the "HCS allowances" and apply them to the Street classes. The reality is "completely stock" older cars might exist, but what runs with us has been enhanced.

The question that will come up with the Prepared classes will be the tires and can/should they be only on 200 tw, again that would be up to the people running in the class.

I would like to avoid a lumped together Historic 2 CST. If we attract more cars than Historic 1, then we will ask for the jacket.

David

Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:35 pm
by Doug Teulie
A few suggestions/ options for updates to the Cal Club 2021 SR's. This is just for conversation and all of this needs more thought and review. HIST1 and HIST2 updates can be made for 2021. All proposals require review by the Board. All proposals need to consider the need for local staff managing any and all alterations to the standard set of National Solo rules and 2020 Cal Club SRs. If any rules or allowances are changed they will be made clear and then added to the 2021 Cal Club SR's.

Note the two class structure categories:
1) Scratch class structure like HCS is listed with aggressive to mild car modifications. HCS as proposed is structured as a mostly open scratch class like our local CST, or National XP class.
2) PAX class structure with National Solo allowances and also adjustments to non-National Solo2 allowances such as HCS. The only good way to have both structures in HIST1 for 2021 is to make the PAX index for HCS appropriate.

Version 1:
Change the HIST1 class to HCS class. This is in line with Brian's proposal but the new class will no longer include the HIST1 PAX structure. With the range of cars available and the range of HCS car modification allowances the personality of the class would becomes a catch all as HCS is intended to be. Any non-domestic car of age or any car listed on Brian's additional list running on DOT tires with a UTQG Treadwear Grade of 200 or higher can run in the new HCS Class. Use the full set of allowances from the HCS listing on the SCCA site as Brian requested. All cars run for raw time with no PAX adjustments. This is a go as fast as you can with the best car you possibly can build within HCS allowances with no limit to how much you can spend, class. All SCCA preps that run on R comps are not eligible. HCR cars are not allowed to run in HCS. The HCS class is not eligible for Regional PAX ranking until the PAX value is in line with the rest of the Solo classes. Hist2 replaces HIST1 as the new PAX class and HIST2 picks up all SCCA Solo2 cars 1955-1980 that adhere to the SCCA 2020 National rule book and or 2020 Cal Club SR's. All cars must be licensed & insured unless using prepared indexes (like EP). Given the age requirement of most of the cars California Smog is not required however 1976-80 running AS-HS index will require smog equipment and this will help with displacement limits. HIST2 cars running OEM size 13" wheels can use approved UTQG Treadwear Grade of 200 or lower tires no wider than 205. Street classes can add two sway bars but OEM spring rates and ride height must be maintained within .75". Everyone gets what they asked for.

Version 2:
Change the HIST1 class to the HC1 class. Use the term HC1 to prevent confusion with HCS because different sets of HCS "rules" are published on the internet and HC1 is a Cal Club only set of allowances. Any car of age or any car listed on Brian's additional list running on DOT tires with a UTQG Treadwear Grade of 200 or higher can run in HC1. This is a go as fast as you can with the best car you possibly can build within HC1 allowances with limits as listed in 2021 Cal Club SR's. All cars run for raw time with no PAX adjustments. All cars must be licensed & insured. Given the age requirement for of the most cars California Smog is not required. Later cars would have issues. Consider limits to the modifications allowed in HC1 to bolt-on where possible and avoid motor swaps to cut down on permeant alterations. No body panels, wings/fenders, wheel wells can altered from factory spec. Put limits on wheel width (+1") over stock and (+2 dia) over stock up to 15" max or the outside tire dia. is within 1/8" when using 16" wheels. Wheel offset must be within 5mm of stock and wheel spacers are aloud to achieve the required offset (spend time thinking about the limitations). Allow nonperformance modifications/repairs to keep older cars running when parts are no longer available or the car would be unsafe to run otherwise. Any SCCA Street (AS-HS) car of age can still run but at a disadvantage due to the lack of prep. All SCCA preps that run on R comps are not eligible for HC1. HIST2 picks up all SCCA Solo2 cars 1955-1980 that adhere to the SCCA 2020 National rule book and or 2020 Cal Club SR's. Hist2 replaces HIST1 as the new PAX class. All cars must be licensed & insured. Given the age requirement for of the most cars California Smog is not required. HIST2 cars running OEM size 13" wheels can use approved UTQG Treadwear Grade of 200 or lower tires no wider than 205. Street classes can add two sway bars but OEM spring rates and ride height must be maintained within .75". I believe that PAX modifiers within Cal Club approved classes are available for all HIST2 participants. Everyone gets what I think they wanted.

Version 3:
HIST1 stays a PAX class. Any car of age or any car listed on Brian's additional list running on DOT tires with a UTQG Treadwear Grade of 200 or higher can run using the National Solo Pax listing as qualified and an additional listing of revised allowances with an ASP-FSP/SK index is added that is inline with leveling the class for cars running with street alowances. This will take some effort and requires management of the classing. Consider a limit to the modifications allowed for ASP-FSP/SK to bolt-on and no motor and trans internal modifications to cut down on permeant alterations. No body panels, wings, fenders, wheel wells can altered from factory spec. Put limits on wheel width (+1") over stock and (+2 dia) over stock up to 15" max (spend time thinking about the limitations). Allow nonperformance modifications/repairs to keep older cars running when parts are no longer available or the car would be unsafe to run otherwise. Any SCCA car that adheres to the SCCA 2020 National rule book and or 2020 Cal Club SR's can still run using the Solo appropriate index. All SCCA preps that run on R comps are not eligible.

Version 4:
HIST1 stays a PAX class. Any car of age (1955-1980) or any car listed on Brian's additional list running on DOT tires with a UTQG Treadwear Grade of 200 or higher can run. Use the full set of allowances from the HCS listing on the SCCA site but change the PAX for HCS to .870 adjusted to reflect the highest potential level of the fastest car. Any car that has modifications in line with HCS runs with an .870 index. If faster cars are added to the HIST1 list for the HCS allowances the HCS PAX will increase. Any car that has modifications in line with CST runs with a CST PAX index (no big change to the 2020 SR's). Any car of age that adheres to the SCCA 2020 National rule book and or 2020 Cal Club SR's can run using the Solo appropriate index. For all cars of age allow nonperformance modifications/repairs/use of non OEM equivalent parts to keep older cars running when OEM parts are no longer available. Allow nonperformance modifications/repairs/use of non OEM equivalent parts when a car would be unsafe to run otherwise (example: aftermarket axels). All SCCA Solo preps that run on R comps are still eligible for HIST. HCR is not allowed to run in HIST. The class is eligible for Regional PAX ranking.

Version 5:
HIST1 stays a PAX class. Any car of age (1955-1980) that has modifications in line with CST runs with a CST PAX index (no big change to the 2020 SR's). Any car of age that adheres to the SCCA 2020 National rule book and or 2020 Cal Club SR's can run using the Solo appropriate index. For all cars of age allow nonperformance modifications/repairs/use of non OEM equivalent parts to keep older cars running when OEM parts are no longer available. Allow nonperformance modifications/repairs/use of non OEM equivalent parts when a car would be unsafe to run otherwise (example: aftermarket axels). All SCCA Solo preps of age that run on R comps are still eligible for HIST. HCR is not allowed to run in HIST. The class is eligible for Regional PAX ranking.

Again, this is just a start toward making positive changes.

I hope this helps.

Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:35 pm
by xrotaryguy
Thanks for listing some proposals, Doug. We always need some framework to start with and it's good to see your thoughts in print. I'm also glad we all seem to agree that waiting until 2021 to make changes is best.

Since everyone else is doing it, here are some thoughts - or a proposal if you will.

HCS-1 (Street, '74 and earlier)
Years: 1955 - 1974
PAX: HCS 0.794
Cars: Same as HCS plus Howlett's list.
Modifications: Same as HCS. Possible turbo restrictions or wheel restrictions.

HCR-1 (Race, 74 and earlier)
Years: 1955 - 1974
PAX: HCR 0.814
Cars: HCR plus Howlett's list.
Modifications: Same as HCR.

HCS-2 (Street, '75 and later)
Years: 1975 - 25 years old (1995 as of today)
PAX: 0.800-ish
Cars: Anything 3.0 liters or less (Possibly except some cars like the twin turbo Rx7)

HCR-2 (Race, '75 and later)
Years: 1975 - 25 years old (1995 as of today)
PAX: 0.818-ish
Cars: Anything 3.0 liters or less. (Possibly some exceptions. Turbo hardware, aftermarket ECUs, etc. really came on strong in the mid 90s)

I'm hesitant to cover '75 and later cars in this discussion because it makes the discussion so much larger. But maybe it's a good idea to consider what that would look like in the future. It would be nice not to modify the '74 and earlier rules again as we (potentially) consider what to do with later cars.

Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:41 pm
by Doug Teulie
xrotaryguy wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:35 pm
Since everyone else is doing it, here are some thoughts - or a proposal if you will.
HCS-1 (Street, '74 and earlier)
Years: 1955 - 1974
PAX: HCS 0.794
Cars: Same as HCS plus Howlett's list.
Modifications: Same as HCS. Possible turbo restrictions or wheel restrictions.
Thanks Brian,
I enclosed a few quotes from above that address part of your proposal. If the HCS PAX was .900 would it change your opinion? You understand that the PAX for HCS will increase one way or another. If the soft PAX disrupts overall PAX results it will increase. With a HCS scratch class structure PAX has no value to the class but does have an impact to all the other competitors in the region running using SCCA approved National class or Cal Club SR's agreed PAX. It would be easer on the club if drives with car modifications that don't fit a class just ran with a CST index.
Doug Teulie wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:35 pm
1) Scratch class structure like HCS is listed with aggressive …. modifications. HCS as proposed is structured as a mostly open scratch class like our local CST, or National XP class.
…. With the range of cars available and the range of HCS car modification allowances the personality of the class becomes a catch all as HCS is intended to be. …. All cars run for raw time with no PAX adjustments. This is a go as fast as you can with the best car you possibly can build within HCS allowances with no limit to how much you can spend...
Rick Brown wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:31 pm
…. and second the PAX index for it seems highly flawed.
Doug Teulie wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:59 pm
...PAX for HCS is so soft it is not in alignment with any SCCA Solo2 class in the National Solo rule book. HCS is not listed in the Solo2 rule book and the SEB does not maintain Heritage Classic.
Rick Brown wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:40 am
….and obviously has a screwed up PAX.

Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:30 pm
by xrotaryguy
Doug Teulie wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:41 pm
xrotaryguy wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:35 pm
HCS-1 (Street, '74 and earlier)
Years: 1955 - 1974
PAX: HCS 0.794
Cars: Same as HCS plus Howlett's list.
Modifications: Same as HCS. Possible turbo restrictions or wheel restrictions.
If the HCS PAX was .900 would it change your opinion?
Doug, I feel that your proposed 0.870 index does a good job of dealing with the fastest-possible HCS-prepped car. However, it leaves the rest of the field (literally everyone in the class today) in the dust.

Rather than adjust the index up to SSM, let's adjust allowable car modifications down. Wheel width is a good example of a modification that is easy to execute and which significantly slows cars so they don't perform like something from a Mod class.

For reference, and to further my point, restricting engine internals is an example of a modification which would be difficult for many competitors. Un-modifying an engine which was set up 40 years ago is a bit expensive compared to swapping wheels.
Doug Teulie wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:35 pm
1) Scratch class structure like HCS is listed with aggressive …. modifications. HCS as proposed is structured as a mostly open scratch class like our local CST, or National XP class.
…. With the range of cars available and the range of HCS car modification allowances the personality of the class would becomes a catch all as HCS is intended to be. …. All cars run for raw time with no PAX adjustments. This is a go as fast as you can with the best car you possibly can build within HCS allowances with no limit to how much you can spend...
I think that tossing out the PAX is a pretty aggressive solution to a problem that hasn't (yet) occurred. Given the current situation, I think the best solution should be more like "fine tuning" rather than tossing out the PAX all together.

CalClub's HCS/HST1 doesn't have go-fast cars/competitors. It has old cars that were already prepped to the owner's liking - often to the previous owner's liking.

My response to the rest of the quotes is the same as above so I'll cut it short. But your point is taken, more than one person feels that the PAX is soft given the potential to build a fast car.

Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:28 pm
by Doug Teulie
xrotaryguy wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:30 pm
Doug, I feel that your proposed 0.870 index does a good job of dealing with the fastest-possible HCS-prepped car. However, it leaves the rest of the field (literally everyone in the class today) in the dust.

That is what HCS is all about, just like SM. So far the PAX has been so soft and the fast cars have not come by to run. The Z club is on the way and some 911s are just a phone call away. We need to look forward and structure for growth.
xrotaryguy wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:30 pm
Rather than adjust the index up to SSM, let's adjust allowable car modifications down. Wheel width is a good example of a modification that is easy to execute and which significantly slows cars so they don't perform like something from a Mod class.
I think you want something different and that requires directors to manage your request. We need to think about the rest of the club and be respectful. I see your point clearly and I think HCS is not what you want. This is the first step to going someplace that works.
xrotaryguy wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:30 pm
For reference, and to further my point, restricting engine internals is an example of a modification which would be difficult for many competitors. Un-modifying an engine which was set up 40 years ago is a bit expensive compared to swapping wheels.
True, SCCA has classes for motor modifications, SM, XP, depending on the modification. CST covers most of what you are talking about. What are the modifications that you know of that don't fit a class?
xrotaryguy wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:30 pm
…. your point is taken, more than one person feels that the PAX is soft given the potential to build a fast car.

Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:09 pm
by Anthony P.
I'm not sure what's needed in the SCCA is more classes...

Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:36 pm
by Doug Teulie
Anthony P. wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:09 pm
I'm not sure what's needed in the SCCA is more classes...
I agree.

Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:33 pm
by Doug Teulie
One thing to think about, "How do we explain any of the "Outlaw" rules to someone from a different region who is running with us for a short period of events." Back in August we had several new drivers. Classing them was a challenge at registration and I witnessed Tom Barry saying, I am not sure what class your car fits into, you need to talk to Brian."

I think you want something more like Version 3:
Doug Teulie wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:35 pm
Version 3:
HIST1 stays a PAX class. Any car of age or any car listed on Brian's additional list running on DOT tires with a UTQG Treadwear Grade of 200 or higher can run using the National Solo Pax listing as qualified and an additional listing of revised allowances with an ASP-FSP/SK index is added that is inline with leveling the class for cars running with street alowances. This will take some effort and requires management of the classing. Consider a limit to the modifications allowed for ASP-FSP/SK to bolt-on and no motor and trans internal modifications to cut down on permeant alterations. No body panels, wings, fenders, wheel wells can altered from factory spec. Put limits on wheel width (+1") over stock and (+2 dia) over stock up to 15" max (spend time thinking about the limitations). Allow nonperformance modifications/repairs to keep older cars running when parts are no longer available or the car would be unsafe to run otherwise. Any SCCA car that adheres to the SCCA 2020 National rule book and or 2020 Cal Club SR's can still run using the Solo appropriate index. All SCCA preps that run on R comps are not eligible.
We can have HCS cars with drivetrain modifications use Prepared as a starting point and then provide a step up or down to help level.
xrotaryguy wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:30 pm
I think that tossing out the PAX is a pretty aggressive solution to a problem that hasn't (yet) occurred. Given the current situation, I think the best solution should be more like "fine tuning" rather than tossing out the PAX all together.
All regular National Classes run scratch within class and PAX is used for overall standings as an extra challenge or unit of measure. HIST is a collection of many classes where PAX is used to level the wide range of cars. HCS is a structure that does not care about leveling. Even SM has leveling.
Allowing HCS as a scratch class and have all the HCS prep cars run together without HCS running in HIST is one way to keep HIST as a PAX class in Cal Club for drivers that use the SCCA classing and SCCA prep rules. See version 1.

See version 4 for this option:
If HCS is added to Cal Club as a local class it will have 1 PAX index for all the fast and slow cars to run under. If it is added all the allowances need to be listed and an index value included in the SR's. If the HCS index is too soft it is not good for drivers that run street class, SM, EP and use the SCCA rules as they should. Also if the PAX is too soft everyone in the entire region gets hurt when the fast "Outlaw" cars show up. Setting the PAX to reflect the fastest cars for the class is normal. See version 4 that shows how to include the catch all within a PAX structure.
Doug Teulie wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:35 pm
Version 4:
HIST1 stays a PAX class. Any car of age (1955-1980) or any car listed on Brian's additional list running on DOT tires with a UTQG Treadwear Grade of 200 or higher can run. Use the full set of allowances from the HCS listing on the SCCA site but change the PAX for HCS to .870 adjusted to reflect the highest potential level of the fastest car. Any car that has modifications in line with HCS runs with an .870 index. If faster cars are added to the HIST1 list for the HCS allowances the HCS PAX will increase. Any car that has modifications in line with CST runs with a CST PAX index (no big change to the 2020 SR's). Any car of age that adheres to the SCCA 2020 National rule book and or 2020 Cal Club SR's can run using the Solo appropriate index. For all cars of age allow nonperformance modifications/repairs/use of non OEM equivalent parts to keep older cars running when OEM parts are no longer available. Allow nonperformance modifications/repairs/use of non OEM equivalent parts when a car would be unsafe to run otherwise (example: aftermarket axels). All SCCA Solo preps that run on R comps are still eligible for HIST. HCR is not allowed to run in HIST. The class is eligible for Regional PAX ranking.
I think this is clear and understood.

Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:35 pm
by xrotaryguy
First off, My car sounds like it will be regulated out of its class due to my wheel and suspension setup. It's just that my car was set up for a long-bygone era (2019 haha) when wheel size was unrestricted in HCS. If that happens, it happens. No hard feelings.

My interest is in keeping the competition alive for these smaller vintage cars. And honestly, if Southern California, the Mecca of car culture can't get this right, then I'm switching to public transportation!
That is what HCS is all about, just like SM.
HCS's fastest car today is made out of wood. That's not "just like SM."
Some 911s are just a phone call away.
Even if a 200 hp 911 finally showed up, it wouldn't do much on skinny tires. That's what runs in HST, little old cars with skinny tires.

SCCA autocross doesn't seem to be the preferred venue for vintage Porsche owners. Should we steer away from the hypothetical Porsche?

My Corvair is the presently taking advantage of the rules more than anyone. It's basically a pile of rust and rotted bushings with big tires shoehorned under it. The tires are why it keeps up with you, Doug.

I fine with marking my car as "over-prepped" and adjusting rules accordingly. I still argue that changing the PAX to match SM is going too far though.
This is the first step to going someplace that works.
LOL, this suddenly started sounding like an AA meeting.

I Autocross in Phoenix too. No HST or HCS there. In Phoenix I'll spot an Alfa, an old BMW, an MG, etc. There's was even a really slow classic Porsche one time. There isn't a class where those cars are competitive. Most of them compete in different classes with various PAX indexes. That's a lousy experience. Thats why new vintage autocrossers in Phoenix leave as fast as they join.

I absolutely prefer racing in SoCal due to HCS/HST. The competition between all the smaller European, Japanese, and US cars and the ALL guys who drive them has been great!!!

Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:30 am
by David Barrish
Brian,

I concur and agree with..

"I absolutely prefer racing in SoCal due to HCS/HST. The competition between all the smaller European, Japanese, and US cars and the ALL guys who drive them has been great!!!"

I read the SCCA guideline as a list of allowable modifications to street tire cars that run in the "Street" class of the rule book. I can point to one car that runs in the class, #156, that is probable as close to "as delivered" from the factory. I would be willing to wager that everyone else is running to what we now call the HCS guideline, or to a more developed level.

Only one car is consistently listed as prepared and runs on the class appropriate "R" compound tires. Everyone else is running on 200tw tires, or harder.

Looking at the January results for the class, everyone is listed as "ES". If, on a local basis this works for the cars that are competing in the class, leave it alone.

For the balance of the year, 2020 I will be running my 1982 BMW 320 in "HS", using the HCS guideline for the preparation of the car. In HIST2. To Brian's point, "competition between all" should provide a base line judge, in small part the old and older cars as a comparison.

David

Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:35 am
by Doug Teulie
David,
I want what is best for the Club. The issue in the past is/was all HCS is underground and nothing is/was listed in the Cal Club SR's. Drivers were making or requesting to make investments into modifications with no Cal Club rules to support the action. Also HCS does not list cars that qualify other than an offering age and country of origin. Some cars could be unsafe with the allowances, I don't know. The group is going to change in the next 5 years so it is a good time to think ahead.
Doug Teulie wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:33 pm
One thing to think about, "How do we explain any of the "Outlaw" rules to someone from a different region who is running with us for a short period of events." Back in August we had several new drivers. Classing them was a challenge at registration and I witnessed Tom Barry saying, I am not sure what class your car fits into, you need to talk to Brian."
David Barrish wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:30 am
Looking at the January results for the class, everyone is listed as "ES". If, on a local basis this works for the cars that are competing in the class, leave it alone...……….
David

I see your point and I offer Version 6 to address what you are talking about. You could just have a scratch class using just one index (like CST has) then the index value does not matter to the class. At registration you select HIST1 and you move on to the Cal Club SR's and see what you can do, easy.

Version 6:
Change HIST1. Any and all drivers run with an ES index + some amount respectfully and inline with the HCS allowances. The class will no longer include the PAX structure. Only cars that appear in the National SCCA rule book listed under ES or HS of age qualify (you need to think about this). DOT tires with a UTQG Treadwear Grade of 200 or higher can run in the Class. Use the full set of allowances from the HCS listing on the SCCA site for prep (understand that many cars could make 2X horse power over stock). All SCCA preps that run on R comps are not eligible.

(SCCA ES) Datsun 2000 240Z 260Z 280Z Fiat & BeRtone X1/9 MoRgan 4/4 & Plus 4 Sunbeam Tiger
(SCCA HS) Alfa Romeo (what fits) AMC Gremlin (4-cyl & 6-cyl) Austin Mini Austin-Healey (all) BMW 1600 1800 2000 CS coupe 2002 Corvair (all) Vega & Cosworth Vega Datsun 1200 1500 & 1600 Roadster B-210 510 Fiat 500 Cortina Mustang II Pinto Honda 600 800 Accord ? LanCia ? Lotus Cortina RX-2 RX-3 MeRCedes 280SL Capri MG all Opel GT Opel Manta Peugeot ? PoRsChe 356 (non-Carrera) 912 Renault ? Sunbeam Alpine TRiumph all except Stag & TR-8 Volkswagen air-cooled engine (all) Dasher

Version 6b:
Change HIST1. Any and all drivers run with an ES (or you could include HS also) index + some amount respectfully. The class will no longer include the PAX structure (could use PAX for just the two classes but with the prep it may not be needed). Only cars that appear in the National SCCA rule book listed under ES or HS of age qualify (you need to think about this and possibly move some cars up an index or out of the listing if you use PAX). DOT tires with a UTQG Treadwear Grade of 200 or higher can run in the Class. Use the full set of allowances from the HCS listing on the SCCA site for prep (understand that many cars could make 2X horse power over stock). All SCCA preps that run on R comps are not eligible. (you could use HS index for the one car that is using the Street prep but is gets complicated at registration).

This addresses some of the fast HC cars entering the class and levels the field slightly. You can still spend lots of money building a very fast possibly worthless car that runs on 120 octane and kill the class but the group will be happy.

Do you want to limit some of the cars listed and limit some of the HCS allowances like cutting body work? Do you want to have log books? Please think about just using the CST allowances but restrict intake. Now is the time to make it clear and publish what is expected.

Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:49 pm
by David Barrish
Doug,
I am not suggesting we limit the Historic 2 to just E and H Street. Until we have anyone running we will not know the effect of a HCS level of preparation on a group of cars with production starting in 1975.

What I am asking for is HCS preparation allow for spring that could be other than stock but not adjustable via a threaded collar and top hats not adjustable for camber. Those two modification would move move the car into the prepared class.

If a rim and tire combination fits under the stock fenders, you can run them. The question of not using "R" compound tires in the prepared class I leave to the group.

Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:31 pm
by Doug Teulie
David Barrish wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:49 pm
Doug,
I am not suggesting we limit the Historic 2 to just E and H Street. Until we have anyone running we will not know the effect of a HCS level of preparation on a group of cars with production starting in 1975.

What I am asking for is HCS preparation allow for spring that could be other than stock but not adjustable via a threaded collar and top hats not adjustable for camber. Those two modification would move move the car into the prepared class.

If a rim and tire combination fits under the stock fenders, you can run them. The question of not using "R" compound tires in the prepared class I leave to the group.
David,
My way of seeing things is, HIST1 and HIST2 are different classes." They don't have to use the same allowances." If you agree we can take the HIST2 conversation to a different post. Assuming you would like me to help you, I think we can spec a set of allowances that will attract a group of drivers and cars that will enjoy running together. If you think suspension is more important than 12:1 compression and custom transmissions I think we will see eye to eye on most everything. SCCA has history on both prepared and street prepared cars running this group of cars with production starting in 1975. We know the popular mods that people like. I would be happy to bounce ideas off each other with the goal of making it something easy for the directors to approve.

Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:07 pm
by David Barrish
Remember, cars starting in 1975 have to pass smog to be street legal. Per the HCS allowances the cars have to be...

- Vehicle must be considered “street legal” with normal road touring equipment (lights, wipers,
etc.) and capable of being licensed for normal road use in the United States.

If a car has current California plates, it would be legal to run with the HCS allowances. In the "Street" classes. I'm not sure someone would build a car with the enhancements you are siting and not include an adjustable suspension and enlarged/modified fenders. It's racing, anything could happen. But obviously they would not be legal in the "Street" class.

If we work out the cost of a head gasket, you could protest a car on the compression issue.

HIST2 are a group of newer, old cars. With the same issues as the older cars in HIST1.

Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:23 pm
by Doug Teulie
I think coil overs are not a big problem for HIST2. Think about STS as a starting point. Way more to think about. Best done in a different string as this string is about allowing HCS or not into Cal Club HIST1 as it is listed in the letter.

Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:13 pm
by David Barrish
Doug,

I am asking, for Historic2 that adjustable coil on threaded collars with adjustable camber plates "not" be included in the Street classes.

Not a STS starting point.

I will let the participants of HIST1 determine their own class.

Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:47 am
by Anthony P.
I'm not going to quote but two things.

1) the most prepped hcs is not Brian's but a former BSP Nissan Z, with an even more modified motor. Idk, easily 10 seconds faster than anything that races with us.

2) street legal does not mean smog legal... look at cam and other classes. Even the proposed xb/xa. It's not how you interpret the rules, it's how the national office interprets the rules...

Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:17 am
by David Barrish
Anthony,

With the HIST1 cars, up to 1974, the update and backdate of motors is not a California smog registration issue. The swaps are not going to trigger an issue, it would be up to the competitors to arrive at a compromise.

The HIST 2 cars in California, to be registered and smog legal have to pass the inspection station. That will include the California catalytic converters, not the 49 state version. Yes, not everyone does it right. But if you invest the time, energy and money on an older car you might also have the correct smog equipment.

David

Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:30 am
by David Barrish
The HIST1 engine swap can look like an early Bug Eye 948cc motor exchanged for the 1275cc of the later cars. The same is true if the Mini Coopers. The MGA is a 1500/1600 engine, that cam be swapped for the 1800 from the latter MGB.

The larger displacement swaps could be moved to HIST2, if that works for the small displacement drivers of the group.

If that displacement limit is enforced, it needs to take into account motors that have wet liners that can be changed without a visual clue. If one of these is built under the displacement limit it would still be legal, right?

Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:48 pm
by Steve Ekstrand
Seriously want to require California legal and California plates? That doesn't exist anywhere in Solo life.