Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Steve Ekstrand » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:58 pm

You do realize that a 49 State car is legal to bring into California after 7500 miles or if you fit a series of exemptions. You are not required to put a California compliant Cat into these cars. But a California Compliant car would have to. Even though both would pass inspection and can carry current California Plates.
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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Doug Teulie » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:55 pm

David Barrish wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:30 am
The HIST1 engine swap can look ….
David,
I think we all know what you saying however looking at some of the posts above I see HCS and HIST blended and confused with each other.
HCS is a proposed unofficial offering with its own allowances such as motor swaps. HCS is not an SCCA supplemental class. HCS is not listed in the National Solo2 rule book and the SEB does not maintain Heritage Classic.
HIST1 is a PAX class for several SCCA classed cars of an age category to run together.
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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by David Barrish » Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:23 am

From the SCCA web site, autocross rules tab.

Supplemental Classes

Supplemental Classes are offered at National Solo® events, but do not compete for a national championship.

Local Region Options: This includes the number of classes, vehicles included/excluded, and/or specific allowances/restrictions contained in the rules. The core objective is described in the “Rationale” above, but specifics may be adjusted to fit the needs of the local participants so they can have fun with their Heritage cars.

I am looking at the January results of our local region and it lists four cars all in one class, but their level of preparation embraces the intent of the HCS in three of four cases. That are running in our Local HIST1 class. Reflecting that in most cases the cars that compete in this group are modified in some way and no longer stock, "Street" cars built up to 1974.

HiIST2 is in our local system, for cars built starting in 1975 and I am requesting that the HCS level of preparation be acknowledged as acceptable for cars that run in all class's for cars that compete in the "Street" level of preparation.

Per the above,

The classes above and the rules that follow are offered for Regions to use as shown OR Regions may modify them to suit their local needs.

...but specifics may be adjusted to fit the needs of the local participants so they can have fun with their Heritage cars.

Let's give older cars a place to run. Let's acknowledge that the changes made to these cars to keep them running moves them out of the "as delivered from the manufacture "bubble". For the "Street" cars.

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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Doug Teulie » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:55 am

Just some clarification.
Looking at some of the posts above I see HCS and HIST blended and confused with each other.

Cal Club has something in place (a PAX structure we call HIST) however other regions do not have anything for older cars.
HCS is confusing. It is just an offering to local regions from the SCCA National office to start something for the older cars. The intent is to have local regions work it out and possibly form a class. The HCS structure outlined in the letter is for raw time scoring and would not easily fit within Cal Club's HIST class as it stands today. Heritage Classic does not appear on the Solo stationary because the SEB does not maintain Heritage Classic.
From Doug Gill at the SCCA National office:
“I’m not the Solo Events Board, …………because the SEB does not maintain the Heritage Classic Rules. This is being done in-house here in the SCCA National office.…..Solo Rules section 13.4 is not a part of Heritage Classic. The Heritage Classic Rules basically stand on their own “after” Section 12, Definitions. So there is no need to reference any portion of Section 13, Street Category, for an HCS car. …..Hope this helps.
-Doug”
If you look at the link for the Heritage Classic Rules it is missing this:
Supplemental Class – Suggested for use at Regional/Divisional-level Solo events and will be offered at 2020 SCCA® National Tour and ProSolo® regular season events as a Supplemental/Exhibition class (no contingency awards, not eligible for Super/Women’s Challenges, no PS points)

We have a few things to think about but first we need look at classing structure. After classing structure we need to look a car modification allowances and see how they fit the structure.
Doug T
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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Doug Teulie » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:50 am

David Barrish wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:23 am
I am requesting that the HCS level of preparation be acknowledged as acceptable for cars that run in all class's for cars that compete in the "Street" level of preparation.
I see your point but it takes more than that to make it work if the HIST PAX structure that we have is used.
PAX gets wild fast when replacing Street allowances with HC prep allowances because the prep really changes the potential performance of a car. Some HS cars will be much, much faster with prep allowances. So much so that an HS car could be as fast as an ES car with the same HC allowances. The open internals and motor swap clause has the potential to double horse power and the wheel and tire allowance takes a 4" wheel to a 8-10" wheel (more than double). PAX values need to adjusted to reflect modifications from Street. Look at SP and you will see what I am talking about.
Doug T
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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Rick Brown » Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:07 pm

This seems to have gotten way too complicated for a local class. Looks like Doug's #5 option makes the most sense to me. Keep HIST1 & 2 as is with the addition of cars in Brian's post. If someone want's to run a non-SCCA classed car, use CST or CSM (actually has always been available on MSR, the list of classes for PAX includes CST and CSM, and is available to any class listed as indexed).
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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Anthony P. » Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:25 pm

Rick Brown wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:07 pm
This seems to have gotten way too complicated for a local class. Looks like Doug's #5 option makes the most sense to me. Keep HIST1 & 2 as is with the addition of cars in Brian's post. If someone want's to run a non-SCCA classed car, use CST or CSM (actually has always been available on MSR, the list of classes for PAX includes CST and CSM, and is available to any class listed as indexed).
+1

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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Brian Howlett » Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:11 pm

Anthony P. wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:25 pm
Rick Brown wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:07 pm
This seems to have gotten way too complicated for a local class. Looks like Doug's #5 option makes the most sense to me. Keep HIST1 & 2 as is with the addition of cars in Brian's post. If someone want's to run a non-SCCA classed car, use CST or CSM (actually has always been available on MSR, the list of classes for PAX includes CST and CSM, and is available to any class listed as indexed).
+1
I agree
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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by xrotaryguy » Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:13 pm

Doug Teulie wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:55 am
From Doug Gill at the SCCA National office:
“I’m not the Solo Events Board, …………because the SEB does not maintain the Heritage Classic Rules. This is being done in-house here in the SCCA National office.…..Solo Rules section 13.4 is not a part of Heritage Classic. The Heritage Classic Rules basically stand on their own “after” Section 12, Definitions. So there is no need to reference any portion of Section 13, Street Category, for an HCS car. …..Hope this helps.
-Doug”
If you look at the link for the Heritage Classic Rules it is missing this:
Supplemental Class – Suggested for use at Regional/Divisional-level Solo events and will be offered at 2020 SCCA® National Tour and ProSolo® regular season events as a Supplemental/Exhibition class (no contingency awards, not eligible for Super/Women’s Challenges, no PS points)
Doug, thank you for clarifying how HCS is not an SCCA sup reg. I was wondering this myself considering how it is listed on the SCCA website.
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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Reed Gibson » Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:16 pm

Rick Brown wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:07 pm
This seems to have gotten way too complicated for a local class. Looks like Doug's #5 option makes the most sense to me. Keep HIST1 & 2 as is with the addition of cars in Brian's post. If someone want's to run a non-SCCA classed car, use CST or CSM (actually has always been available on MSR, the list of classes for PAX includes CST and CSM, and is available to any class listed as indexed).
Short and sweet, just the way I like it.

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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by xrotaryguy » Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:23 pm

Very generally, I think there are two proposed solutions
1. Go to extremes with the PAX, either very high or none at all.
2. Consider more modest allowable modifications. Possible modest PAX adjustment.

And there are two perceived rationales for HCS
1. Some guys somewhere far away who wanted to race their old GT cars.
2. The guys right here in SoCal racing their mildly-modified classic cars.

Option #5 seems basically reasonable to me as well. The CST PAX is awfully stiff considering what's racing in HST/HCS though.

Smog and CA plates may make sense in CST but I don't see how it makes any difference in HST1/HCS.
Doug Teulie wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:50 am
David Barrish wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:23 am
I am requesting that the HCS level of preparation be acknowledged as acceptable for cars that run in all class's for cars that compete in the "Street" level of preparation.
The open internals and motor swap clause has the potential to double horse power and the wheel and tire allowance takes a 4" wheel to a 8-10" wheel (more than double). PAX values need to adjusted to reflect modifications from Street.
I think we all understand the potential to take full advantage of the rules. Maybe someone will do just that someday. I think we need to keep in mind that nobody has and make adjustments accordingly.

Just for fun though, doubling the horsepower of a 60s flat six is still... SAD... haha
Brian Jackson
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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Reed Gibson » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:42 am

I'll re-word here what I tried to explain on the call last night. The PAX for the Historic classes (all of them) should not be tailored to make them competitive with the official PAX classes given to us by the SCCA. The PAX is calculated yearly to make competition "fair" for drivers who build cars to the SCCA approved rule sets. Historic cars that are modified past the letter of the law should not be given a "friendly" region only PAX so that they may compete for top honors at our local events. That is not fair to drivers of any make/model/year car who stick to the approved rule sets in order to drive in a class.

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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by David Barrish » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:02 am

+1, on the PAX issue.

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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Anthony P. » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:50 am

I'm glad we are continuing the conversation. Just working off what Reed mentioned, Pax is set by Rick Ruth, so it's not something we change locally with the exception of CST, which is still pegged to SSM.

David you were correct hist 2 was 1975- 25 years or older. My apologies.

With so many options, I wonder if bringing in more participants first would help shape the class. As Sean mentioned on the call, we have in the past, broken out an individual class from an index class once there is sufficient participation. Once people are racing heads up, the pax thing becomes a non issue, unless people are trying to win overall or something, in which case prepping to an scca national class is the way to accomplish that.

So, for instance, if 5 more people come out and say, run underprepared with an FSP or AM or SSM, etc index within historic 1 or historic 2, and want to race heads up the next year, I'm certain the board would support breaking out Hist-FSP as it's own heads up class, as long as 5 people continue to compete.

Yes, I recognize it's likely that they wont be competitive the first year, so in light of that, I would support a proposal from 5 people wanting to be broken out into a seprate historic class, using the current national classing. Then if they fail to maintain an average of 5 people we could simply recombine it back into HIST 1 or 2 as needed. Basically just 5 people that want to run heads up against each other.

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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Reed Gibson » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:52 am

Anthony P. wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:50 am
With so many options, I wonder if bringing in more participants first would help shape the class. As Sean mentioned on the call, we have in the past, broken out an individual class from an index class once there is sufficient participation. Once people are racing heads up, the pax thing becomes a non issue, unless people are trying to win overall or something, in which case prepping to an scca national class is the way to accomplish that.
Yes, this! If folks want to compete against each other on a level playing field we need to see the demand in terms of actual attendance. We should not try to tailor rules to cars that may or may not show up. If cars come around looking to try things out, we should class them reasonably, not precisely (i.e. underclass them in Street not Street Prepared). If we get to a point where there are enough drivers with slightly overmodded cars or if these slightly overmodded cars are dominating the legal class cars, we can break them out so they can continue to race heads up without hurting the folks who are building to the letter of the law.

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Re: Historic 1 Proposed Rules change.

Post by Rick Brown » Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:06 pm

Since there is a thread about replacing CST with XS (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10809), should probably include that in this discussion. Plus if CST is kept, does it's PAX need to be adjusted? Not sure it ever has since tied to SSM
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