Pointers/Directional Cones

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Doug Teulie
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Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Postby Doug Teulie » Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:59 pm

OK folks...

A driver sees that the pointer cone (first of three) on an apex cone is missing and stops for it
The car before the driver in question picked up one cone and took it (details not important).
It looks like the corner worker replaced the standing apex cone but did not have a cone to put in the place for the first pointer cone.

The rules are not clear if a rerun is deserved however the course looks very different.

So I want arguments "why" the driver should "not" get a rerun. Please make your case clear.

Thanks....
Last edited by Doug Teulie on Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Postby Max Hayter » Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:07 pm

I've seen the video of the run. The pointer next to the standing cone was missing, but another two pointer cones were present, thus making the pointer cone look like it was out of the box.. He should get a rerun - it looked really weird.

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Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Postby Doug Teulie » Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:10 pm

Max Hayter wrote:I've seen the video of the run. The pointer next to the standing cone was missing, but another two pointer cones were present, thus making the pointer cone look like it was out of the box.. He should get a rerun - it looked really weird.


I think you wanted to say ---- > thus making the APEX cone look like it was out of the box.
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Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Postby Max Hayter » Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:13 pm

Doug Teulie wrote:
Max Hayter wrote:I've seen the video of the run. The pointer next to the standing cone was missing, but another two pointer cones were present, thus making the pointer cone look like it was out of the box.. He should get a rerun - it looked really weird.


I think you wanted to say ---- > thus making the APEX cone look like it was out of the box.


Yes, indeed I did - thanks.

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Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Postby Max Hayter » Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:14 pm

^space <<

instead of

^<<<

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Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Postby Doug Teulie » Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:15 pm

Max Hayter wrote:^space <<


Yes that is what I am talking about.
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Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Postby Jayson Woodruff » Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:30 pm

I think everyone should get to drive the same course, pointers included. Courses look different and therefore are different with pointers moved around,

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Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Postby George Schilling » Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:56 pm

Rerun :thumbup:
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Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Postby Rick Brown » Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:11 pm

I agree, the provisional rerun should count.
Since light is faster than sound...many people look bright until they speak...

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Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Postby Doug Teulie » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:15 am

Rick Brown wrote:I agree, the provisional rerun should count.


Jonathan Lugod, ST Rerun approved for Sunday March 20th, 2011.
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Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Postby Bill Schenker » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:24 am

Doug Teulie wrote:
Rick Brown wrote:I agree, the provisional rerun should count.


Jonathan Lugod, ST Rerun approved for Sunday March 20th, 2011.


Oh wait! Lugod?! Are you sure???

;) j/k. Sounds like a good call.
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Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Postby Jonathan Lugod » Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:22 am

heres the video for those who are interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHRWsMILwWU

I was checking to see if the corner worker was going to do something about that element. I've learned to not yell out of the car for a downed cone. They can't hear you well and you'll take up more time trying to communicate. Not to mention other cars coming close right behind you at 10/10ths. Id rather make an obvious stop and take the issue to the trailer. Most corner workers will know right away what is happening once a car is stopped at their corner.
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Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Postby Steve Ekstrand » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:43 am

I'd totally grant the rerun. Glad it worked out.

WAIT!!! Does that mean you beat me?
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Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Postby Bill Schenker » Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:26 am

Jonathan Lugod wrote:heres the video for those who are interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHRWsMILwWU

I was checking to see if the corner worker was going to do something about that element. I've learned to not yell out of the car for a downed cone. They can't hear you well and you'll take up more time trying to communicate. Not to mention other cars coming close right behind you at 10/10ths. Id rather make an obvious stop and take the issue to the trailer. Most corner workers will know right away what is happening once a car is stopped at their corner.



Again, the right call.

But what about that pax seat? You see that thing? it may be "legal" but it sure as h*ll ain't sanitary looking!
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Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Postby Curt Luther » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:36 pm

Jonathan Lugod wrote:heres the video for those who are interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHRWsMILwWU

I was checking to see if the corner worker was going to do something about that element. I've learned to not yell out of the car for a downed cone. They can't hear you well and you'll take up more time trying to communicate. Not to mention other cars coming close right behind you at 10/10ths. Id rather make an obvious stop and take the issue to the trailer. Most corner workers will know right away what is happening once a car is stopped at their corner.


I was working radio at that section. There was a bit of carnage right before you went through and I was trying to catch up the sheet after having to reset two cones myself. I looked over right after you were driving away from the "downed" cone and I knew it looked wrong. I actually called for a start hold so I could go over and fix it as it seemed the worker had no clue as to why it was wrong. I also didn't know you had stopped until I read all of this right now. Had I known it then, I would have called in the rerun myself.

Sorry I just read this now.
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Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Postby Doug Teulie » Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:50 pm

What about a rule book change?
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Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Postby Eric Clements » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:48 pm

Curt Luther wrote: I also didn't know you had stopped until I read all of this right now. Had I known it then, I would have called in the rerun myself.

Lugod shoots himself in foot with video...

To get a rerun for a down cone you need to stop and be acknowledged by a couse worker as to why you stopped. When you stop and point at a cone course workers come running, nod and signel you to get going. Stopping (or worse, slowing down) and driving away just leaves the problem for the next car.

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Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Postby Jonathan Lugod » Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:47 am

Eric Clements wrote:
Curt Luther wrote: I also didn't know you had stopped until I read all of this right now. Had I known it then, I would have called in the rerun myself.

Lugod shoots himself in foot with video...

To get a rerun for a down cone you need to stop and be acknowledged by a couse worker as to why you stopped. When you stop and point at a cone course workers come running, nod and signel you to get going. Stopping (or worse, slowing down) and driving away just leaves the problem for the next car.


I stopped and the course worker just stood there staring at me. Possibly newbie?
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Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Postby Christine Grice » Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:56 am

Jonathan Lugod wrote:I stopped and the course worker just stood there staring at me. Possibly newbie?

I was with Jeff Shyu just walking off course from taking pictures when all this happened. The course worker was definitly new. I knew which cone Jon was looking at and that it did look wrong. I had already gone out to that course worker earlier in the run group and tell him that that pointer cone had been wiggled. I should have stopped in the motorhome to tell Mari, but my eyes were buring from sand being kicked up by the wind. Sorry Jon.
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Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Postby Steve Ekstrand » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:10 am

Okay, a decision has been made. I agree with it.

But I'd like to discuss what we can learn from this. And if we need to define things better in our supps. I have some friends that have grumbled a bit about this one offline.

Jon stopped at the missing directional, but didn't point it out or otherwise communicate with the worker. We can't see in the video, if anybody was running towards the missing cone, or nodding, or pointing him to go. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. Tough to communicate with the workers, and if you do, good chance you have not just 1 red flag but a couple. Does a failure to point out the cone or communicate with the worker cancel out the rerun? I see problems with this requirement. Frankly, if its not obvious, I'd rather deal with it by radio off course than have a meeting on course while hot cars are piling up behind. Maybe the radio operator can know to ask for a "hold the start" if a car stops and points but the workers can't figure it out.

He asks for a rerun. The "motorhome" is not an official as far as I know (I've been part of the motorhome team that does in fact make those decisions all the time). Who is supposed to make that decision? The Event Chair? What if he's running or out to lunch? How did the provisional get granted? How did that all play out? That was one big complaint that I heard offline that they thought this one was done. A decision made, and then after the event a message board campaign is waged. I get that sentiment, but I don't know what was done or said at the event. I was worried enough about my own poor driving. :oops: If a driver doesn't like the motorhome decision (or the event chair decision) is there a protest procedure well defined (I recall something in the supps, but I'm too lazy to look, this is a discussion afterall, not my opinion)?

When I started in this region all we heard about was the sanctity of the course logs. We could watch a cone get hit, but if it didn't make THE corner log, it didn't happen. Same with phantom cones logged. What about reruns? Do the course logs matter on reruns?

Do we need to define pointer cones in our supps? I really want to test this next time we a pointer on a slalom entry and it really really matters!
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Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Postby Bob Pl » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:06 pm

Steve Ekstrand wrote: Tough to communicate with the workers, and if you do, good chance you have not just 1 red flag but a couple. Does a failure to point out the cone or communicate with the worker cancel out the rerun? I see problems with this requirement.


I wasn't at the event, but this scenario happens all the time.

When a driver sees a cone out of place, it (usually) means a course worker has already dropped the ball on resetting the course.

The driver is trying to point out to the clueless course worker what's wrong with the course and that can take a while.

Meanwhile course is hot and the driver knows that a car is coming up fast behind him/her and safety (for everybody) dictates that the driver get going or cause a hazard & a bunch of reruns.

So to put it on the driver that all this "official - in the rules" stuff get accomplished instantly before the next car arrives seems like a lot to expect.

:)

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Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Postby Doug Teulie » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:01 pm

Steve Ekstrand wrote:Okay, a decision has been made. I agree with it.

But I'd like to discuss what we can learn from this. And if we need to define things better in our supps. I have some friends that have grumbled a bit about this one offline.

Jon stopped at the missing directional, but didn't point it out or otherwise communicate with the worker. We can't see in the video, if anybody was running towards the missing cone, or nodding, or pointing him to go. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. Tough to communicate with the workers, and if you do, good chance you have not just 1 red flag but a couple. Does a failure to point out the cone or communicate with the worker cancel out the rerun? I see problems with this requirement. Frankly, if its not obvious, I'd rather deal with it by radio off course than have a meeting on course while hot cars are piling up behind. Maybe the radio operator can know to ask for a "hold the start" if a car stops and points but the workers can't figure it out.

He asks for a rerun. The "motorhome" is not an official as far as I know (I've been part of the motorhome team that does in fact make those decisions all the time). Who is supposed to make that decision? The Event Chair? What if he's running or out to lunch? How did the provisional get granted? How did that all play out? That was one big complaint that I heard offline that they thought this one was done. A decision made, and then after the event a message board campaign is waged. I get that sentiment, but I don't know what was done or said at the event. I was worried enough about my own poor driving. :oops: If a driver doesn't like the motorhome decision (or the event chair decision) is there a protest procedure well defined (I recall something in the supps, but I'm too lazy to look, this is a discussion afterall, not my opinion)?

When I started in this region all we heard about was the sanctity of the course logs. We could watch a cone get hit, but if it didn't make THE corner log, it didn't happen. Same with phantom cones logged. What about reruns? Do the course logs matter on reruns?

Do we need to define pointer cones in our supps? I really want to test this next time we a pointer on a slalom entry and it really really matters!


I made the call, as Event Chair, to allow the 4th run during the run group. If the run was not made we could not allow it or disallow it (disallow would be the only option). Then I asked for all the evidence to be presented. I reviewed the case and I made the call on Sunday (to allow) pending. The motor home made some incorrect statements over the P.A. and as we all know the announcer's words are not official. I looked up the rules and asked the driver to do the same. After the event I allowed people on this forum to TELL ME WHY HE SHOULD NOT GET THE RUN just incase something major was not presented. Nothing was presented on the MB. I did get one PM message but we adressed the issue of who, when and how the call was made. All the off line or message board stuff was not part of the case nor was it presented to me (I did not look for it). I never looked at the standings.

I think we need to make a change to our rule book.
Last edited by Doug Teulie on Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Postby Steve Ekstrand » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:53 pm

Thanks for the clarification on your call Doug. Good thinking to offer a provisional run.
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Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Postby George Schilling » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:58 pm

Rules? Don't we have enough already? The problem with rules is there is almost always an unforeseen circumstance that falls into a gray area. Being the friendly group that we are, let's continue to allow a provisional run and let the event master sort out the details and make the call. If for some reason he gets it wrong, it's then we should strap him to a pole for twenty lashes then force him to leave the state. :lol:

Here a case where everyone agrees it was the right call, our procedures worked, yet some seem to be suggesting a possible change to a rule. Huh? Sounds like government in action. Look where that has brought us. }:)
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Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Postby Steve Ekstrand » Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:14 pm

My suggestion on the rule was more in regards to the pointer cone oversight that it seems most regions have failed to deal with. "Everybody knows"....

I hear you on the libertarian mantra, but I've been on the wrong end of clubs and event masters in this region whipping out the supps to twist an outcome to their agenda. It isn't pretty.
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