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Pointers/Directional Cones

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:08 pm
by Jason Uyeda
I just noticed a thread on the SD forums (http://www.sdsolo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1817" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) where they realized they have no rule in their supps regarding pointer/directional cones... Looking through our supps we also don't seem to have a rule, and there is no rule in the Solo rules, just the National Supps. Perhaps we should consider adopting a rule in our supps? Here's the National Supp rule:

H. COURSE MARKERS
1. Directional pylons (pylons which are laid on their side) are for informational purposes and do not count if hit. Directional pylons
placed directly adjacent to a penalty pylon must be obeyed or a DNF will result. Directional pylons not adjacent to a penalty
pylon are for informational purposes only and do not result in a DNF if not followed. If a directional pylon displaces a penalty
pylon, the penalty pylon will be assessed.
2. A penalty will be assessed for each displaced course entry and exit pylon.
3. The course will be lined on both sides, weather permitting. Crossing a line incurs no penalty.
4. Drivers observed driving at substantially less than normal competition speeds for the purpose of spotting slightly misplaced
course markers to earn a re-run will be referred to the Operating Steward for action. Such conduct is considered
unsportsmanlike and an unnecessary delay of the event.

Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:18 pm
by Mike Simanyi
Since we operate under the National guidelines, only adding Supplemental Regulations where we deviate, I don't think there is any need.

Why is S.D. adding something for this? Did some argument develop?

Mike

Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:58 pm
by Steve Ekstrand
We operate under National Solo rules. But National supps? I didn't think we did... If we do, I think we have more deviations to consider addressing.

Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:11 pm
by Jason Uyeda
Steve Ekstrand wrote:We operate under National Solo rules. But National supps? I didn't think we did... If we do, I think we have more deviations to consider addressing.
Yeah, I don't see anywhere in our supps where we reference the National Supps. And I don't think we want to follow all the National Supps since they cater to 2-day national type events. There'd be lots of things we want to change, not limited to the OOR and the max 30min break (which happens after 3rd heat...).

The Pro Solo Rules do ref pointers/directional cones, but we also obv. don't want to follow them...

Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:17 pm
by Rick Brown
Mike Simanyi wrote:Since we operate under the National guidelines, only adding Supplemental Regulations where we deviate, I don't think there is any need.

Why is S.D. adding something for this? Did some argument develop?

Mike
Your point was my initial reaction, then I realized what Steve pointed out. Wonder why it's a Supp thing and not a Rule thing?

Someone on the SD board brought up a "What if". If you stop for a missing pointer should you get a re-run. I think if it's a pointer in the first cone in a slalom, then yes since it it required to know which way you must take the slalom. Apex and rows of pointers are just for info and to help out the less skilled.

Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:45 pm
by Jason Uyeda
Rick Brown wrote:
Mike Simanyi wrote:Since we operate under the National guidelines, only adding Supplemental Regulations where we deviate, I don't think there is any need.

Why is S.D. adding something for this? Did some argument develop?

Mike
Your point was my initial reaction, then I realized what Steve pointed out. Wonder why it's a Supp thing and not a Rule thing?

Someone on the SD board brought up a "What if". If you stop for a missing pointer should you get a re-run. I think if it's a pointer in the first cone in a slalom, then yes since it it required to know which way you must take the slalom. Apex and rows of pointers are just for info and to help out the less skilled.
I too wonder why it's not part of the Solo Rules? Perhaps because they want to give regions the option of counting directional cones???

I agree with Rick's assessment but some may not (especially those that are less experienced)... I have run events where the fastest line was actually through a row of directional cones, and have had to deal with several situations regarding visual situations because of missing/misplaced directional cones at Nationals and National Events... Not to mention that less experienced workers often call in pointers that are hit (although why shouldn't they if we have no rules that say they don't count?).

Funny, I remember this coming up locally when I first started, and I couldn't find the rule...

Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:11 pm
by Glenn Duensing
Jason Uyeda wrote:
I too wonder why it's not part of the Solo Rules? Perhaps because they want to give regions the option of counting directional cones???
Yep that's it. In the old days some Regions counted the pointer cones.

Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:14 pm
by KJ Christopher
Rick Brown wrote:
Mike Simanyi wrote:Since we operate under the National guidelines, only adding Supplemental Regulations where we deviate, I don't think there is any need.

Why is S.D. adding something for this? Did some argument develop?

Mike
Your point was my initial reaction, then I realized what Steve pointed out. Wonder why it's a Supp thing and not a Rule thing?

Someone on the SD board brought up a "What if". If you stop for a missing pointer should you get a re-run. I think if it's a pointer in the first cone in a slalom, then yes since it it required to know which way you must take the slalom. Apex and rows of pointers are just for info and to help out the less skilled.
Unless I'm mistaken, it was brought up by someone who stopped for a missing cone on the outside wall of the last turn in Sunday's course (IIRC, on an X run). I could be mistaken, but I'm guessing not given the way the question was asked on the SD forum. Anyway, perhaps he took some heat for that from someone and is looking for clarification.

Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:15 pm
by Bob Beamesderfer
I was going to post something about lone directional cones not carrying a penalty if a competitor drives over or around them, but didn't find it in the National rules.

It's not often that the situation comes up. As for directional cones that must be followed, any of those that are missing should be covered under the "stop for a down cone" rule at the discretion of the Chief of Course, which for local events is the Event Chief.

Does not come up very often, but some guidance would be good.

Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:17 pm
by Mark Duerst
Mike Simanyi wrote:Since we operate under the National guidelines, only adding Supplemental Regulations where we deviate, I don't think there is any need.

Why is S.D. adding something for this? Did some argument develop?

Mike
I think this is the whole point of the arguement.
The Solo rules say nothing about directional cones/pointers. Under the solo rules (not at an event covered by supp regs that allow directional cones) a directional cone that is marked in a box then hit is a penalty unless you stop for it and point out that it is down or out of the box.
Both San Diego and Cal Club deviate from this by allowing for directional cones at there events even though there is nothing in the regions supp regs that say it is okay.

Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:21 pm
by Steve Ekstrand
I did go around the pointers once at a Pro... Put in the clutch instead of the brake first time driving Art's Sentra at the turnaround. Oops... No penalty.... And fortunately not my fastest lap... :oops:

Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:42 am
by Jason Uyeda
OK, couple things to reply to...

First, at a National event, it's up the the Chief Steward and the OP Steward to grant the re-run/provisional run (it would depend on the situation). We don't have either position at a local event so in that case I'd think it would fall to the Event Chair; as does pretty much everything at a local event...

The standard Solo Rules don't cover directional cones (as they're already laying down)... I think you could argue that directional cones are illegal since they're down and should count against you based on those rules alone.

Not to be a rules weenie, but if someone intentionally drove through/around a directional cone and gained an advantage (i.e. in a slalom), what would we do??? Obv. I think the Event Chair would probably follow the rule as we understand it Nationally but that doesn't mean it's correct based on our local rules... Also, you are not required to stop for down cones based on the Solo Rules, who says a directional cone is any different unless you describe it as such ahead of time...

And for the record, I have run courses where the fastest line was to intentionally drive through directional cones, although the last case was at the '06 Wendover Pro so the Solo Rules don't apply.

I suggest we tighten things up before one of those PAX losers find a way to exploit it :)

Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:32 am
by Steve Ekstrand
What Jason said...

Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:38 am
by Kurt Rahn
Not to be a rules weenie, but if someone intentionally drove through/around a directional cone and gained an advantage (i.e. in a slalom), what would we do???
If someone drove through/around a directional cone on a slalom, that would mean they went the wrong direction on that slalom, no? I have no clue re: rules, but it seems like they'd be assessed some sort of penalty, if not a DNF for that.

Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:26 am
by Jason Uyeda
Kurt Rahn wrote:
Not to be a rules weenie, but if someone intentionally drove through/around a directional cone and gained an advantage (i.e. in a slalom), what would we do???
If someone drove through/around a directional cone on a slalom, that would mean they went the wrong direction on that slalom, no? I have no clue re: rules, but it seems like they'd be assessed some sort of penalty, if not a DNF for that.
Hey, read the thread :) We have no rule regarding pointers or directional cones... By the letter of our current rules a directional cone in a slalom means nothing. The National rules only refer to standing pylons. If we throw an octopus somewhere randomly on course and some of us agree that we must stop, engage the e-brake, and then proceed forward when in the proximity of said octopus would it be cool to DNF those that don't because they don't know about it?

For that matter the definition of a "slalom" is a little vague, but that's a discussion for another time...

I realize this all may seem a little ridiculous since most of us assume things to be a certain way... Just pointing out a potential problem.

Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:26 am
by Kurt Rahn
Actually, I did read the thread, but apparently I'm a little slow (no cracks from the peanut gallery). So you're saying that as it stands now I can ignore the directional pointer on a slalom and go whichever direction I please? If so, that seems like it does need to be addressed in the supp regs.

Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:21 am
by Sebastian Rios
My .02: Displacing a directional cone should not be penalized, disobeying a directional cone should be a DNF, and if a directional cone is missing (no matter where on course) the driver should have the option of stopping and being granted a rerun.

Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:30 am
by Steve Ekstrand
Kurt Rahn wrote:Actually, I did read the thread, but apparently I'm a little slow (no cracks from the peanut gallery). So you're saying that as it stands now I can ignore the directional pointer on a slalom and go whichever direction I please? If so, that seems like it does need to be addressed in the supp regs.
Hmmm.... Questioning the Poly education now.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:59 pm
by Kurt Rahn
Get Robert into Chandler...QUICK!! ;)

Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:03 pm
by Mike Simanyi
Sebastian Rios wrote:My .02: Displacing a directional cone should not be penalized, disobeying a directional cone should be a DNF, and if a directional cone is missing (no matter where on course) the driver should have the option of stopping and being granted a rerun.
What Sebastian said. :thumbup:

Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:38 pm
by Kurt Rahn
Sounds reasonable to me.

Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:12 pm
by Bob Beamesderfer
Mike Simanyi wrote:
Sebastian Rios wrote:My .02: Displacing a directional cone should not be penalized, disobeying a directional cone should be a DNF, and if a directional cone is missing (no matter where on course) the driver should have the option of stopping and being granted a rerun.
What Sebastian said. :thumbup:
We can call it "The octopus rule" :lol:

Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:16 pm
by Chuck Fowler
Sebastian Rios wrote:My .02: Displacing a directional cone should not be penalized, disobeying a directional cone should be a DNF, and if a directional cone is missing (no matter where on course) the driver should have the option of stopping and being granted a rerun.
i realize it's not nearly wordy enough, but just add "rules proposal" to the front of it :thumbup:

Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:02 pm
by Bob Pl
Sebastian Rios wrote:My .02: Displacing a directional cone should not be penalized, disobeying a directional cone should be a DNF, and if a directional cone is missing (no matter where on course) the driver should have the option of stopping and being granted a rerun.

Pretty much agree with Seb (yeah I started the SD thread)

:)

Actually, on my x runs I stopped at the finish apex cone. There was a missing pointer (middle one or maybe the one nearest the apex cone. I stopped because I did not want to run down the worker who was going for the replacement and then seemed to freeze as I was bearing down on him/her. I probably would not have stopped if it were not for the proximity of the worker.

But then I got to thinking. It's clearly a visual "distraction" and your focus/mind is momentarily affected as you try to process what is different about that part of the course, so it can cost you time. Pointer cones that "attach" to a key apex cone are a lot more important than walls of pointer cones that are intended to keep the cars going in the correct general direction.

So that's why I asked. Not any "heat", got the rerun, fantastic course & great event.

Nonetheless, and I'm not big on having an encyclopedia of RULES, but this will probably come up again. Who is a good (simple) rule writer?

:)

Re: Pointers/Directional Cones

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:54 pm
by Kurt Rahn
100% agree with Seb.