Course Finish Standard

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John Coffey
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Course Finish Standard

Post by John Coffey »

I might be making a big mistake by posting this, but I make mistakes all the time...

There was a lot of discussion on 6/15 regarding the course layout after the finish lights. There probably isn't a specific rule regarding post finish course layout and I've noticed that every course designer and every safety steward has a different opinion about course finish. Would it be productive to discuss that here, with the intent of developing a CSCC Solo2 guideline, or am I poking an angry bear(s) in the eye with a sharp stick?
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Re: Course Finish Standard

Post by Giovanni Jaramillo »

John Coffey wrote:Would it be productive to discuss that here
Note the title of this forum John........Public Rules Discussion. It is very "productive". Now whether or not it makes into the "rules" that's another story. You know how it goes...politics an all. Every club's different, etc...etc...

I wasn't there at the event but I've heard rumblings about the finish but not exactly what was wrong or different about it to cause "conversation". So...inquiring minds would like to know. What was wrong with the "finish" and afterwards at the No$ (champ event) on Sunday?
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Re: Course Finish Standard

Post by Bob Beamesderfer »

I didn't make it either. What kind of finish setup was it? I'm going to guess a dead 90-degree turn right after the lights. I call them flat-spot finishes. :evil:
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Re: Course Finish Standard

Post by Rick Brown »

Giovanni Jaramillo wrote:
John Coffey wrote:Would it be productive to discuss that here
Note the title of this forum John........Public Rules Discussion. It is very "productive". Now whether or not it makes into the "rules" that's another story. You know how it goes...politics an all. Every club's different, etc...etc...

I wasn't there at the event but I've heard rumblings about the finish but not exactly what was wrong or different about it to cause "conversation". So...inquiring minds would like to know. What was wrong with the "finish" and afterwards at the No$ (champ event) on Sunday?
Fairly fast finish, but when you came around the right turn it was a sea of cones. No pointers on the apex cones, and for some reason, not lined like the rest of the course. I dnf'd my first run because I could not tell at all where the course was going. The original design had the lights at about where the arrow head on the picture below and very few cones on the left turn after it. Once the lights were moved (much discussion about THAT) mega cones were added to that turn. A number of people didn't make it so there were many cones to pick up. A number of people also lost it going through the lights and went off course before that turn.

My opinion is to keep finishes simple, clean, safe and reduce the chance of re-runs. Do all your tricky stuff out in the course. Human nature is to stand on it through the lights. Give people a straight finish with lots of shut down room.
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Re: Course Finish Standard

Post by Rick Brown »

Hmm, now that I look at it, I think that was the original finish. Fendel must not have updated his drawing after the changes.
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Reijo Silvennoinen
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Re: Course Finish Standard

Post by Reijo Silvennoinen »

It was quite an exciting/challenging finish in an S2000. I was dog-tracking/counter-steering while braking heavily (ABS) in the right kink directly following the finish. That was followed by a hard left (even drifted slightly through that). I didn't have major trouble with it but it was tricky and I had to be careful.

In summary, you were hard on the throttle and then backing off and braking hard into a turn.....perfect for rotating anything FWD etc.....any car really. Spins and offs were not too surprising. If you did not brake in the corner, you would've shot through the wall of cones at the tight left corner.

Probably would have been better to have a straight section directly after the finish when people were getting off the throttle and therefore avoiding rotation tendency of the cars. Perhaps even a bit longer finish would have been good.

Perhaps another solution would have been more extreme manuevers before the finish (I was flat to the floor from the last right 90 degree kink - if you got the line right, you could flat foot it all the weaving way to the finish).

Hindsight is always 20/20 ... at least some of the time.

So, there you go, that's my perspective.

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Re: Course Finish Standard

Post by Bob Beamesderfer »

This from the Solo rule book, Section 2.2:

J. Extreme care shall be taken in the location of the start, finish, staging, and timing areas. The timers and staging area must be placed well clear of the course in a safe area. The finish section and course exit should be clearly and carefully defined to safely restrict speeds. It is not recommended that competing cars be required to come to a complete stop immediately following the finish line. It is preferred that cars be required to slow to a walking speed within a controlled area before returning to the grid or paddock areas. A complete stop should be required only when unusual site conditions exist. In all cases, a sufficient distance past the finish line must be available to safely slow or halt any competing car from the highest possible speed attainable at the finish without locking brakes or wild maneuvering. It is recommended that an official be assigned to control the finish area. Particular care must be exercised in the finish area to keep it free from hazard to participants and non-participants.
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Re: Course Finish Standard

Post by Will Kalman »

54mph through the lights braking started in the middle of a 0.8g turning maneuver that was right after another 0.8g turn in the opposite direction. This with a car in the slowest class in the sport - and on street tires.

It was probably the sea of cones that kept more of the less-experienced drivers from blasting right through the Exit wall or spinning wildly out of control - they didn't go as fast as they could because they didn't know where to go! And those experienced enough to bomb though the last section at speed would be more likely to keep in control.

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Re: Course Finish Standard

Post by Doug Teulie »

Finishes are very tricky when heavy breaking and turning is required. I always try to find some straight line and mash the brake pedal, then turn after the car has slowed down to a safe speed. Any time I find myself forced into hard trail breaking or turning over bumps at speed after the lights it is too dangerous IMHO. Saturday I had trouble finding the finish! On Sunday I made it through the finish but I had too look past the lights to find the course. I have no idea where I started braking but some how the car made the final exit turn. I do not have power brakes in my SLOW car so I know how hard I am mashing down the pedal by the leg pain and shaking I feel when I am getting my time slip. Sunday was 5.5 on the shaker and leg pain scale. :geek:
Last edited by Doug Teulie on Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Course Finish Standard

Post by Jayson Woodruff »

Just to be clear, does anyone think it was an unsafe finish? or is this more of a 'Dislike'.

Pointed towards the start area, but ALOT of room before that happend. Lock ups and spins maybe likely if you over drove, but I didn't see where anyone would be in danger. I interpret Bob's bold section to mean you shouldn't be re-entering the paddock/Grid with locked brakes or wild manuvers. In short, I'm fine with it so long as it's not deamed unsafe.

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Reijo Silvennoinen
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Re: Course Finish Standard

Post by Reijo Silvennoinen »

Well, I did see one course worker running for it big time - blonde haired lady (didn't recognize her? Hope we didn't scare her off...) - probably a bit too close for comfort. Can't recall which car spun towards the inside/track (just before the finish - not after) - perhaps the black Camaro?

In any case, it did not look good to me. Definitely a close call. If she had not run for it ... not been watching ... definitely a hit.

I didn't have any problems before the finish but certainly if you wanted to be flat out through there you had to be gentle with the car and have the line right.....too much see-sawing on the wheel and too far from the cones and the result would be the spin.

Perhaps she was also standing in a less-than-optimum location as well.

This is, of course, realizing that someone will likely spin during most events sooner or later etc.

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Re: Course Finish Standard

Post by Reijo Silvennoinen »

In fact the finish on both days was similar with plenty of spins happening.

Simply giving a straight run-off area of sufficient length and width would've solved all of those issues.

I think Roger Johnson mentions something in his course design book. He also mentions something about the course design not being really good if people are hitting a lot of cones. There should be enough room to make errors without plowing down numerous cones. That is a lot of extra work (plus putting workers at risk) for nothing (yeah, I'm lazy :mrgreen: ). I figure if you give people room to hang themselves (without hitting cones that is), then they can drive way out there somewhere without hitting cones if you did your course design properly.

Did you know Roger does course design seminars? Is it time to have him come over here to do a weekend course for us?

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Last edited by Reijo Silvennoinen on Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Course Finish Standard

Post by Bucky MacConaghy »

I'm sure this reply will be summarily dismissed because I'm an "outsider", but here goes:

My experience has been that if drivers are given any "room" past the finish, many of them will stay on the gas way past the finish and will either lock 'em up or be close to it when they do finally have to turn. Moving a turn (past the finish) closer to the lights means that some drivers might not be able to be WFO through the lights (Gasp! HERESY!!) like they want to. You could have a 1/4 mile-long straight past the lights that ends with a tight 90* turn, and you'll still see drivers stay on the gas until the very last second, barely make the turn (or not), then complain about that "tight turn after the lights." It happened in "the old days," and it'll happen now.

Do what you want with the finish. There will always be someone complaining about it. <shrug>
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Re: Course Finish Standard

Post by Reijo Silvennoinen »

Bucky, you are right....some people stay on the gas past the finish - usually novices - can't idiot-proof design because a bigger idiot will come along. :lol:

In my time I've seen finishes where you had to brake before the finish lights - many times! It is just not necessary to do that and especially with the huge lot that we run on.

In this case, I think the problem was more that there was a substantial kink right at/after the finish (Wil was hitting 0.8+ G's.....in an HS car). That upsets the car and doesn't provide an ideal braking condition. If the line had been straighter through the finish, it would've been much better since the distance past the finish lights to the outside of the cones on the left turn was about 135' (I paced it). Should've been marginally enough distance - keeping in mind less 20' or so for turning giving 115' in which to stop or nearly come to a slow speed for the corner from about 60 mph.

Well, thinking about it now, it was marginal for stopping distance even without the kink. Could've been an honest mistake since maybe it was not blantantly obvious to everyone (I saw quite a few decent drivers lifting during those weaves) that you could floor it from the last corner through the lights (wonder how far that was? Quite a distance anyway - a crooked straight - correction: Distance between light poles is about 250' so it was a little over that following a quick 2nd gear corner.).

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Re: Course Finish Standard

Post by Bob Beamesderfer »

damn slow connection. What happened to the delete post function?
Last edited by Bob Beamesderfer on Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Course Finish Standard

Post by Bob Beamesderfer »

I disagree Bucky. We've had quite few finishes where there was a turn before the lights and a straight area following them, which allowed braking in a straight line with plenty of room to slow down. The number of times drivers kept their foot in it too long have been few and far between.

That setup is vastly better than having a sharp turn close to the lights with a huge wall of cones that WILL get wiped out.

As for the section of the rules in bold, it says the area after the lights, which is part of the finish, should be designed in such a way that drivers don't have to pull off a bold maneuver or stand on the brakes to get down to the proper speed for returning to the grid/paddock. Throwing a curve in too soon after the lights violates that section of the rule. Saying people should lift before the lights if they can't make it ignores what the rule says about "highest attainable speed at the finish." Given the rule that the fastest speeds attained by an ASP car should be no higher than those commonly found on public highways, then the finish should have enough room for someone driving Tom Berry's Vette to slow down AND turn without drama.

Those who were there have to figure out whether it meets the standard set out in the rules.
Last edited by Bob Beamesderfer on Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Course Finish Standard

Post by Chuck Fowler »

it drove better than it walked, and i was surprised i could almost flat foot it though the lights IF i was lined up correctly. i don't think it was unsafe, you just couldn't banzai your way through.
so whats to fix? first, make all the finishes nothing but straight, then open up all the turn around's so i don't plow when i go in too hot. then don't have the course go up to the north east corner where the whoop de doo is (that always seems to be off camber). next i'd like all the slalom's evenly spaced and lined up so the entrance AND exit are where i don't need to think.

oh almost forgot, 40ft wide course FTW :thumbup:
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Re: Course Finish Standard

Post by John Coffey »

I did not think it was unsafe, it was just on the edge especially if you came into the finish positioned incorrectly. That section worked great as the start on Saturday's practice, although we did almost get an Integra into the Porta-Potty. Moving the toilet back 6 feet on Sunday was a good idea.
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Re: Course Finish Standard

Post by Ira Cruz »

Design for finish was fair. There is space to stop/slow down car. Problem I had was seeing/finding the lights. Found it on my 2nd & 3rd runs.
Suggest different cone color...something that will attract a drivers peripheral vision so it will tell brain to slow down.
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Re: Course Finish Standard

Post by Bob Beamesderfer »

John Coffey wrote:I did not think it was unsafe, it was just on the edge especially if you came into the finish positioned incorrectly. That section worked great as the start on Saturday's practice, although we did almost get an Integra into the Porta-Potty. Moving the toilet back 6 feet on Sunday was a good idea.
So, did the finish comply with the rule I quoted?
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Re: Course Finish Standard

Post by Bill Schenker »

Bucky MacConaghy wrote:I'm sure this reply will be summarily dismissed because I'm an "outsider", but here goes:

My experience has been that if drivers are given any "room" past the finish, many of them will stay on the gas way past the finish and will either lock 'em up or be close to it when they do finally have to turn. Moving a turn (past the finish) closer to the lights means that some drivers might not be able to be WFO through the lights (Gasp! HERESY!!) like they want to. You could have a 1/4 mile-long straight past the lights that ends with a tight 90* turn, and you'll still see drivers stay on the gas until the very last second, barely make the turn (or not), then complain about that "tight turn after the lights." It happened in "the old days," and it'll happen now.

Do what you want with the finish. There will always be someone complaining about it. <shrug>
Safest, sanest finish in recent memory: PSCC event @ El Toro, last season or the year before - I can't remember.

A long, wide, straight finish that slowly funneled down to a safe, sane width that then turned left, then turned right to the timing slip person. Combined with a mention @ the driver's meetings (notice the plural there) that you have plenty of room to shut it down, please don't keep racing after the lights.

There were ZERO problems. I repeat, ZERO PROBLEMS. Plus, it was set that even if some idiot kept his/her foot in it and blasted into the 1st corner (the 90* to the left) there was NO DANGER of hitting anyone/thing.

Real simple.
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Kurt Rahn
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Re: Course Finish Standard

Post by Kurt Rahn »

As a relative noob, I've been hesitant to contribute, since it looks like a lot of people had the same opinion as I did. However, I felt compelled after a few responses I saw, so here goes...
My experience has been that if drivers are given any "room" past the finish, many of them will stay on the gas way past the finish and will either lock 'em up or be close to it when they do finally have to turn.

That hasn't been my experience. Sure, there are people that will leadfoot it as long as humanly possible (sometimes longer), but this setup didn't allow for any sort of measured slowdown. Regardless whether "many" (disputable, in my opinion) people stay on the gas way past the finish lights and lock them up, you at least have to give them the *chance* to brake evenly and safely.
I did not think it was unsafe, it was just on the edge
To me, when you're talking about safety, I think on the edge=unsafe. What you're going for is a margin of error. Here, there was very little. We're already driving the cars at 10/10ths, so the margin of error needs to be built into the course design, especially the finish.
There is space to stop/slow down car. Problem I had was seeing/finding the lights.
I had no problems seeing the lights. I'm driving a 3800 pound car with a high center of gravity and longer wheelbase than most competitors. My car doesn't like to change direction and stop at the same time. That's exactly what the finish demanded I do if I was to be competitive. I was always able to stop in the required distance, but just barely, and a couple times I felt like I was on the edge of losing control, which doesn't seem like the optimum place to be on the untimed cooldown portion of the course.
So, did the finish comply with the rule I quoted?
No, not in my opinion. The distance between the timing lights and the apex of the left turn (especially given that you had to continue turning after you tripped the lights) was not sufficient. If the last turn had been eliminated and we gained an additional 30' or 40' feet before the left to the timing slips, there would not have been an issue.
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Re: Course Finish Standard

Post by Glenn Duensing »

Ira Cruz wrote:Design for finish was fair. There is space to stop/slow down car. Problem I had was seeing/finding the lights. Found it on my 2nd & 3rd runs.
Suggest different cone color...something that will attract a drivers peripheral vision so it will tell brain to slow down.
LV Region got 20 yellow cones from me to use for the finish. Working good for them.

Yes I'll agree the finish was hard to find but I was slow and waaaaaaaaaay off my game Sunday so I was slow enough that it really didn't bother me too much.

Was it safe? Did it meet the rules? Well you had several SSS and the DSSS all look at it so it must have been alright or otherwise it would have been changed.
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Re: Course Finish Standard

Post by Pete Loney »

My biggest comment is that visually you could not find the finish, easily.

My opinion says that 50 feet before the finish, it should be visually obvious where the lightsare to judge your braking point.

Having a lined( w/ cones) course right up to the finish lights did not help at all.

Gates FTW.

My last run, I had to double brake the finish area, first brake event felt like I stood the car on the front left wheel only, I then straightened it out and broke hard a second time toward the temporary exit chute(missing cone), but I made it.

Oh yeah, sport mode traction control on FTW too. It actually helped, good call on my part.
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Re: Course Finish Standard

Post by Sebastian Rios »

I think it would have been fine if I knew exactly where the lights were. It was hard for me to pick out the finish from the sea of cones.

Maybe offset gates instead of esses lined with cones would have made it easier to see?

Safety wise It was OK as long as the starter was paying attention.

Edit: I just realized I said the same thing as Pete. oops
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