Supp 7.7-7.91

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Supp 7.7-7.91

Post by Michael Palero » Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:47 pm

7.7-7.91 "a trophy shall be given, for a Second Place within 5% of the winner’s total and trophies to all others within 8% of the winner’s totals."

Must 3rd place be within 8% of 2nd's point total? or within 8% of 1st's total?

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Re: Supp 7.7-7.91

Post by Rick Brown » Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:49 pm

Michael Palero wrote:7.7-7.91 "a trophy shall be given, for a Second Place within 5% of the winner’s total and trophies to all others within 8% of the winner’s totals."

Must 3rd place be within 8% of 2nd's point total? or within 8% of 1st's total?
8% of First Place total.
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Re: Supp 7.7-7.91

Post by Michael Smith » Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:44 pm

Thanks rick&palero.

I think the rule should be modified. We should give trophies for those that have made the required amount. (10 this year)
Who's going to say no to rewarding participation at the small cost of a trophy?







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Re: Supp 7.7-7.91

Post by Rick Brown » Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:41 pm

Michael Smith wrote:Thanks rick&palero.

I think the rule should be modified. We should give trophies for those that have made the required amount. (10 this year)
Who's going to say no to rewarding participation at the small cost of a trophy?
It's initially like an event, takes x number of participants (or average per event for year end) per trophy. The percentage thing actually gives extra trophies if a person is consistently close to the top even if there are not enough average participants.
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Re: Supp 7.7-7.91

Post by Steve Ekstrand » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:34 pm

8% isn't that much.

And what happens when the 2nd place guy is 6% back and the 3rd place guy is 7% back... No 2nd place, but a 3rd place?

A typical competition rewards so many trophies per number of competitors. I don't get the percentage back thing. We do strange stuff in reaction to bad situations then get slapped around by the unintended consequences. The fix is the chairman carefully reviewing the results and awarding and extra trophy here and there when the situation warrants. I hope Mike will do that.
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Re: Supp 7.7-7.91

Post by Michael Palero » Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:34 am

Is this a new rule?

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Re: Supp 7.7-7.91

Post by Bill Schenker » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:10 am

Steve Ekstrand wrote:...A typical competition rewards so many trophies per number of competitors. I don't get the percentage back thing. We do strange stuff in reaction to bad situations then get slapped around by the unintended consequences. The fix is the chairman carefully reviewing the results and awarding and extra trophy here and there when the situation warrants. I hope Mike will do that.
To bring up an old argument: no, a typical competition awards 1st, 2nd & 3rd. I have never, and continue to not believe in giving everyone trophies; kids competitions? Of course - I'd like to see every jr. karter get an award this year, but the rest? I just don't get it. I got 4th overall - I don't see why I should get a trophy for that (yes, I qualify under the "8% rule").
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Re: Supp 7.7-7.91

Post by Michael Smith » Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:12 am

Bill Schenker wrote:To bring up an old argument: no, a typical competition awards 1st, 2nd & 3rd. I have never, and continue to not believe in giving everyone trophies; kids competitions? Of course - I'd like to see every jr. karter get an award this year, but the rest? I just don't get it. I got 4th overall - I don't see why I should get a trophy for that (yes, I qualify under the "8% rule").
I'm not talking about overall and not to everyone either. I'm suggesting that those that have dedicated themselves to a class for the year and meet the required amount of events should be awarded regardless of percentage. Those drivers are what make the class live. If you look at each class, there are very few. This is a volunteer sport and the top drivers should appreciate their support.

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Re: Supp 7.7-7.91

Post by Steve Ekstrand » Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:41 pm

Bill Schenker wrote:
To bring up an old argument: no, a typical competition awards 1st, 2nd & 3rd. I have never, and continue to not believe in giving everyone trophies; kids competitions? Of course - I'd like to see every jr. karter get an award this year, but the rest? I just don't get it. I got 4th overall - I don't see why I should get a trophy for that (yes, I qualify under the "8% rule").

We aren't that far apart Bill. The Olympics may award Gold, Silver, and Bronze, but that isn't the only way. SCCA National events awards based on number in class. The PGATour pays out points and dollars to those who make the cut (generally 70 and ties).

Imagine if you had an Olympic downhill and the top 20 guys were all within 4% of the winner. That would be a lot of medals. Participation alone isn't enough. But in LOCAL competition, if a top national player comes into open class and crushes it, its not nice to say nobody else in an active class gets a 2nd or 3rd place trophy because they aren't one of the top 3 guys in the whole country. The Olympics doesn't say, I'm sorry, you were more than 5% behind Franz Klammer, we are withholding the silver medal for these games. :shock:
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Re: Supp 7.7-7.91

Post by John Stimson » Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:04 pm

I just read that rule, and to me it means that a certain number of trophies are guaranteed based on the average number of participants.
But more trophies can be awarded if there are additional people who are within 8% of the winner's score.

Steve's example seems valid: With average participation less than 5 drivers, if the 2nd place finisher has a score between 5% and 8%, and the 3rd place finisher is also within 8%, then there will be two trophies and they will go to the 1st and 3rd place finishers. According to the rules as they are written.

It seems odd to me that eligibility for the 1st place trophy is based not just on competing in half the events, but on the points scored at those events. A win at 50% of the events grants eligibility, but if the person doesn't win every event, they have to compete in additional events to be eligible. Is there a reason for the additional complexity?

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Re: Supp 7.7-7.91

Post by John Stimson » Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:09 pm

One way to reward participation is to have an award that is solely based on participation. For example, SFR gives a polo shirt to everyone who attends every event of the season.

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Re: Supp 7.7-7.91

Post by Michael Smith » Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:37 pm

Code: Select all

Here are the people that are outside of the 8% but have gone to the required event amount. But as John mentioned if there were enough in the class they might be eligible.
PAX				
Place	Name		Total	8%
1	Toby	Larsson	989.306	910.1615
5	Aaron	Goldsmith	902.55	
SS				
1	Tom	Dobyns	978.567	900.28164
2	Mako	Koiwai	877.74	
HS				
1	Bob	Jardine	987.043	908.07956
3	Michael	Smith	890.551	
4	Gene	Wehrman	885.979	
SK2				
1	Jack	Tsou	971.115	893.4258
4	Leonard	Cachola	872.683	
5	Ernest	Limbo	854.207	
6	John	Limbo	737.963	
HIST				
1	Brian	Howlett	987.727	908.70884
5	Ted	Robinson	512.543	
ST				
1	Jeff	Wong	990.252	911.03184
5	Michael	Palero	828.159	
STX				
1	KJ	Christopher	974.371	896.42132
2	Kurt	Rahn	859.752	
ASP				
1	Lisa	Severy	980.512	902.07104
4	Karen	Zaterman	879.541	
5	George	Lynch	810.484	
CSP				
1	Casey	Brier	963.297	886.23324
4	Ken	Lord	869.17	
CST				
1	Doug	Kott	976.611	898.48212
4	Michael	Bradley	870.55	
5	David	Crozier	830.299	
6	Quoc-Viet	Dang	773.513	
CPM				
1	Mike	Nakata	956.705	880.1686
2	Bill	Martin	811.852	
NOVICE				
1	Stanley	Kowalski	565.212	519.99504
3	Ramin	Beizaie	515.346	
4	Arthur	Grant	506.595	

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Re: Supp 7.7-7.91

Post by George Schilling » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:59 pm

My three year old grand daughter just got a participation trophy. They're a disservice to children IMO. What's the lesson we teach them by giving them a reward for losing?

Not everyone can win, a fact to which I am intimately familiar. As an adult do I want a reward for losing? Nope!
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Re: Supp 7.7-7.91

Post by Michael Smith » Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:30 pm

George Schilling wrote:My three year old grand daughter just got a participation trophy. They're a disservice to children IMO. What's the lesson we teach them by giving them a reward for losing?

Not everyone can win, a fact to which I am intimately familiar. As an adult do I want a reward for losing? Nope!
So what your saying is that we should only give trophies for first place.
Then we should figure out a better way to reward participation than loser trophies.

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Re: Supp 7.7-7.91

Post by Ron Tsumura » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:04 pm

I would like to get a jacket some day.

Money to help pay for buy gas and tires is incentive. (solo bucks) I have enough 2nd place trophys thanks.

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Re: Supp 7.7-7.91

Post by Theo O. » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:07 pm

George Schilling wrote:My three year old grand daughter just got a participation trophy. They're a disservice to children IMO. What's the lesson we teach them by giving them a reward for losing?

Not everyone can win, a fact to which I am intimately familiar. As an adult do I want a reward for losing? Nope!
This is very true George :thumbup:

However, I don't think this discussion is purely about participation, I think participation is just one of the requirements.

1. Attend the required number of events
2. Award throphys base on existing rule for number of participants in class
3. Toss out the 5% / 8% rule.

My 2cents.
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Re: Supp 7.7-7.91

Post by George Schilling » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:31 pm

Michael Smith wrote:
George Schilling wrote:My three year old grand daughter just got a participation trophy. They're a disservice to children IMO. What's the lesson we teach them by giving them a reward for losing?

Not everyone can win, a fact to which I am intimately familiar. As an adult do I want a reward for losing? Nope!
So what your saying is that we should only give trophies for first place.
Then we should figure out a better way to reward participation than loser trophies.
I could quote the world famous stock car driver Ricky Bobby who said "If you ain't first, you're last". But I'm not that hardcore. I think what we do now is reasonable. :thumbup:

One of my pet peeves is how we (as a society) have decided to make everyone a winner by way of participation trophies for kids. This creates a false reality. Why work hard to be the best when all you have to do is show up and you win? But hey, studies show that American youth, while ranking just slightly above stupid in world education comparison studies, have the highest self-esteems in the world. Keep those trophies coming. :roll:
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Re: Supp 7.7-7.91

Post by Michael Smith » Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:40 pm

I cant disagree with you George or Ricky Bobby
Sorry. I tried for u Palero. I can visit the trophy shop tommorrow. Does it matter if it has a bowler or cheerleader?

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Re: Supp 7.7-7.91

Post by Rick Brown » Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:44 pm

We have lots of unclaimed trophies in the motorhome. Pretty cheap to replace the plaque on it. Help yourself................... :roll:
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Re: Supp 7.7-7.91

Post by Steve Ekstrand » Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:45 pm

I vote Cheerleader.
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Re: Supp 7.7-7.91

Post by Bill Martin » Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:54 pm

I agree with Ron. Give 1st place trophies. For others who qualify, offer them a trophy if they want it or solo $$ if not. Nothing is a bigger waste of money than giving trophies to those people who don't care. (IE, straight to trash can)

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Re: Supp 7.7-7.91

Post by Bob Beamesderfer » Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:56 pm

George Schilling wrote:My three year old grand daughter just got a participation trophy. They're a disservice to children IMO. What's the lesson we teach them by giving them a reward for losing?

Not everyone can win, a fact to which I am intimately familiar. As an adult do I want a reward for losing? Nope!
2nd place is just the first loser. :lol:

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Re: Supp 7.7-7.91

Post by Theo O. » Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:13 am

This thread went sideways quickly :(

Without the rest of the participants in a class the class dies. I fail to see the logic of insulting everyone that didn't take first place in their respective class.

No need to call people losers and compare them to children. I'm proud of what ever position I end up with in my class, I won some, I lost a lot :) but gosh darn it I drag that tired, banged up E36 to every event, drove her as best as I could and had lots of fun.
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Re: Supp 7.7-7.91

Post by KJ Christopher » Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:42 am

One thing people should keep in mind - venting on the forums doesn't change the rules - it is just a way to vet out different point of views. If you have a suggestion on how something should change, you have to talk to our club rep and have him/her bring it up at a committee meeting.
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Re: Supp 7.7-7.91

Post by John Stimson » Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:43 am

The national SCCA standard for awards is to give a trophy for every three competitors (rounded up) up to 9 competitors, then one trophy for every four competitors (rounded up) over 9.

The current CSCC rules award a trophy for every 2.5 competitors, which is more than the national standard, and then has a provision to give even more trophies if people are close enough to the leader.

I don't think it's insulting to not give trophies to people who did not score enough points to place in a trophy position. This is a game that we choose to play, and there are rules to determine who "wins". What everyone gets out of it is the enjoyment of playing. Limiting the number of trophies makes the competition a little more interesting.

Considering the "within 8%" rule and it does make some sense. Consider a class where you have three really good drivers who are fighting it out all year, but nobody else runs in that class, for whatever reason. The competition isn't made any easier just because there aren't any casual competitors running in the class to boost the participation average, so you could consider that staying close enough to the leader to be within 8% of his/her score is an achievement that merits a trophy, even if it is essentially for "last place".

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