Red Flag then DNF through Decimated Section: Rerun?

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Red Flag then DNF through Decimated Section: Rerun?

Postby Michael Palero » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:45 am

Situation:

A competitor is red flagged for a destroyed element and stops for the red flag.
Competitor then resumes movement and DNFs through the incomplete element.



Question:

Does the original rerun granted at the red flag still stand?

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Re: Red Flag then DNF through Decimated Section: Rerun?

Postby George Schilling » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:11 am

Michael Palero wrote:Situation:

A competitor is red flagged for a destroyed element and stops for the red flag.
Competitor then resumes movement and DNFs through the incomplete element.



Question:

Does the original rerun granted at the red flag still stand?


Yes
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Re: Red Flag then DNF through Decimated Section: Rerun?

Postby Rick Brown » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:12 am

It should. You only lose a rerun if the DNF occurred prior to the red flag. Unless national events run under different rules I'm not familiar with.
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Re: Red Flag then DNF through Decimated Section: Rerun?

Postby George Schilling » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:07 am

We had a situation Saturday in the first group where a RR was called in for a driver for some reason. The driver then proceed to come back at full speed and DNF the finish. Because he/she did not come back at a reasonable speed, usually 75% or so, the RR was disallowed.
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Re: Red Flag then DNF through Decimated Section: Rerun?

Postby Steve Ekstrand » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:01 pm

Did he hit cones?

I don't understand how DNF'ing would matter. On Saturday, if you were red flagged early and exited the course at a reasonable speed, why on earth would you zig zag through that tight 4 cone slalom at the end and cause a red flag for the driver behind????
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Re: Red Flag then DNF through Decimated Section: Rerun?

Postby Eric Clements » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:50 pm

Steve Ekstrand wrote:Did he hit cones?
why on earth would you zig zag through that tight 4 cone slalom at the end and cause a red flag for the driver behind????
To avoid all the crap offline and not drag it back onto the course. I don't see how completing the course is related to causing a red flag for the driver behind you.

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Re: Red Flag then DNF through Decimated Section: Rerun?

Postby George Schilling » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:54 pm

Steve Ekstrand wrote:Did he hit cones?

I don't understand how DNF'ing would matter. On Saturday, if you were red flagged early and exited the course at a reasonable speed, why on earth would you zig zag through that tight 4 cone slalom at the end and cause a red flag for the driver behind????


The DNF was caused by attempting the slalom at full speed. Like so many others, he/she hit the third cone and abandon the forth.
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Re: Red Flag then DNF through Decimated Section: Rerun?

Postby Christine Grice » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:13 pm

Rule in question:
7.4
...
Pylon penalties are not carried over to the rerun. A DNF on a run for which a rerun would have been given shall stand and no reruns shall
be given.
In the case in which a competitor is red-flagged or stops for a displaced or downed cone on the course, the competitor may continue slowly through the remainder of the course or may exit the course directly and will be granted a rerun if appropriate. Failure to exit the remainder of the course at an appropriately reduced speed (generally 79-80% of competition speed) will result in a DNF for that run. It is important to clear the course in a timely manner in order to avoid impeding the progress of the car following and ensure the event remains on schedule.

If the person continued on at the specified reduced speed but had to DNF a portion of the course due to it being destroyed, then they get a rerun.

If it is as George has presented it, where the person was going at competition speed which caused the DNF, then no rerun.
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Re: Red Flag then DNF through Decimated Section: Rerun?

Postby Steve Ekstrand » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:53 pm

Eric Clements wrote:
Steve Ekstrand wrote:Did he hit cones?
why on earth would you zig zag through that tight 4 cone slalom at the end and cause a red flag for the driver behind????
To avoid all the crap offline and not drag it back onto the course. I don't see how completing the course is related to causing a red flag for the driver behind you.



Good point on dragging the marbles back online. On Sunday, I got red flagged very early in the course. There was a little delay to resume since the driver in front of me had come back to reenter the course and erase a dnf. Then proceeding off course, I had to slow as there were MANY cones down and workers in the line. Coming down the hill course workers (I think it was Wiggy) yelled at me to get on it. I stomped back on the gas and drove pretty fast but stayed off the cones and didn't slide the car around any. I was very tempted to go chute to finish and avoid the walloms at the end, but wasn't sure if that was legal or not. When I made the turn at the end of the shutdown area I looked back and sure enough Seb had come flying in on my tail. If I hadn't jumped on it, he would have been redflagged (sorry Seb). But I certainly don't think I was crawling around the course, I just had to slow for workers twice while proceeding. I will not drive 80% 20' from a course worker. If the same thing had happened on Saturday I'd have probably straight lined the finish four cone slalom, would I have been denied a rerun if I had?

I've been yelled at for going too slowly and for going too fast after redflags at tours and divisions by national level people. In all cases I was going pretty comparable speeds. People obviously have very different interpretations of the rule.
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Re: Red Flag then DNF through Decimated Section: Rerun?

Postby Jayson Woodruff » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:49 pm

At the national tour level 80% is still pretty fast, but its usually very obvious that your not going competition speed. No real tire squeal, no late 1/4" apexes, usually full throttle only in a straigt line, etc. I've straightlined slolms after a red flag at Nationals and at a Tour, nobody said boo. I think people just like to yell at you Steve, I know I do.

What I don't like here is now I'm thinking Palero posed the original question in a way to get the answer he wants, not giving the full story. That erks me as a competitor.

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Steve Ekstrand wrote: People obviously have very different interpretations of the rule.

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Re: Red Flag then DNF through Decimated Section: Rerun?

Postby Robert Puertas » Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:09 pm

I have been denied a re-run at a tour because after stopping for a downed cone I was told by the course workers to hurry back to avoid the next person getting a re-run too.
I didn't dnf or hit any cones, but someone in the trailer decided I was going too fast.

In the future I will go extra slow to make sure that doesn't happen again. Even if it means re-runs for multiple people.

I've learned my lesson.

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Re: Red Flag then DNF through Decimated Section: Rerun?

Postby Mark Duerst » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:32 pm

Well I think you have every right to be erked here
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Re: Red Flag then DNF through Decimated Section: Rerun?

Postby John Stimson » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:55 am

If you stop for a red flag or displaced cone and then bypass an element, driving at moderate speed, you still get a rerun. There is still language in the rules that says you should exit the course immediately, rather than complete the course -- there's no such thing as a DNF after you stop.

If you stop for a flag or displaced cone and then drive fast enough that you hit cones...or SPIN (twice!), then that disqualifies your re-run. In SFR, we seriously had someone who spun out twice after being red flagged, and then came and argued violently with the timing crew that he should get his re-run.

Robert, I don't think going extra-slow is the right answer. The rules were recently changed to explicitly state that going too slow is not acceptable...just complete the course in a timely fashion without going to full throttle or taxing the tires in the turns. I generally bypass the slaloms, because it gets me off the course quicker.

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Re: Red Flag then DNF through Decimated Section: Rerun?

Postby Mark Duerst » Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:09 pm

Question:

Does the original rerun granted at the red flag still stand?


Maybe the question should have been " Does the original rerun granted at the red flag still stand even if I return to full speed later in the course, hit a cone and then DNF?"
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Re: Red Flag then DNF through Decimated Section: Rerun?

Postby Michael Palero » Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:55 pm

Sunday the course got Kang'd.
I went out around the uphill sweeper and saw a red flag. I stopped.
I started moving again and the cones pointed me the wrong way.
I followed their directions. After 2 seconds I realized that would have been DNF, so I made a U-turn to complete the element.
Afterwards, I sped up to make up for the smaller gap, but then I became scared of losing my re-run to any radio workers thinking I was driving full speed. I slowed down again.

I've had this issue before and didn't want to risk not having a re-run due to a bad corner worker call. Additionally, I wanted to avoid any trips to the trailer & talks with any stewards to beg for a re-run back.

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Re: Red Flag then DNF through Decimated Section: Rerun?

Postby Bill Martin » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:05 pm

I was in a similar situation saturday. Due to a down cone and a dead bugeye ahead, I slowed, raised my hand (open CP car) and continued on at half speed, maybe better. But it was a long course and I felt someone could be catching me. It's kind of a tough call to decide how fast you should go to prevent causing reruns, but not so fast to constitute practice. So I picked up speed towards the end. In my case I hit #3 cone of that same slalom -- just because the slalom was tight, my car was wide, and I was looking over my shoulder.

I understand Robert's thought to keep it slow and screw the outcome. No one ever lost a run by erring on the slow side. If "management" wants us to finish at 80% to keep the event efficient, they need to suck it up when someone complains "too fast". I've had at least one return from a down cone where one course worker was yelling pick it up and another was giving me a slow-down sign.

As to this thread: the rerun should have been automatic and not negotiable. His subsequent actions if inappropriate should have resulted in a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct, or unsafe driving or the like. Two separate things. Subject to official finding, and also eligible for official appeal.

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Re: Red Flag then DNF through Decimated Section: Rerun?

Postby John Stimson » Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:15 pm

Bill Martin wrote:As to this thread: the rerun should have been automatic and not negotiable. His subsequent actions if inappropriate should have resulted in a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct, or unsafe driving or the like. Two separate things. Subject to official finding, and also eligible for official appeal.
That's not how the rules say to handle it. You're free to visit http://www.sebscca.com and write a letter to the SEB suggesting a change.

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Re: Red Flag then DNF through Decimated Section: Rerun?

Postby Bill Martin » Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:04 pm

John Stimson wrote:
Bill Martin wrote:That's not how the rules say to handle it. You're free to visit http://www.sebscca.com and write a letter to the SEB suggesting a change.


You're right in that the rules require an "appropriate" speed on the return. But that's a judgement call -- the rules aren't specific on who's judgement that is. As I tried to point out, different people have entirely different ideas of what's appropriate. In fact, note that the rulebook specifically states the competitor should return to the pits slowly. But when Robert said that was his plan, he got chided for it. I don't see anything in 7.9.2 that waives it's requirement of "slowly off course". Is "25-30mph" the same as 80% as is frequently recommended? I don't think so.

I think this is a very ambiguous rule with differences between what is written and how it's implemented. A DQ should be the call of the event master or maybe the safety steward. But it should be a formal management decision and thus subject to appeal given that it's still a judgement call.

BTW, I've got no problem with how this specific case was resolved -- only that the entire issue is squishy. How about you? Do you see a disconnect between the books "slowly" and "25-30mph" vs being told in the drivers meeting to return at 75%-80% pace? Now I prefer the latter, but is there supposed to be a choice?

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Re: Red Flag then DNF through Decimated Section: Rerun?

Postby John Stimson » Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:52 pm

Bill Martin wrote:I don't see anything in 7.9.2 that waives it's requirement of "slowly off course". Is "25-30mph" the same as 80% as is frequently recommended? I don't think so.
Check out 7.4 in the 2011 Solo rules That's where you'll find your 80%. Note that I don't disagree that there are inconsistencies in the current (2011) version of the rules. In fact, I have written in to the SEB about the flaws I see in the language.

Also note in 7.9.2 that reruns are only granted at the discretion of the chief steward. So the whole automatic re-run, then take it away later if someone protests for sportsmanship, is not the right way. Of course it usually ends up being the timing and scoring crew that makes such decisions at regional events, not the chief steward...but often an event chair is present to oversee.

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Re: Red Flag then DNF through Decimated Section: Rerun?

Postby Bill Martin » Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:29 pm

No, read closer. 7.9.2 says "and then will be granted a rerun." What you saw was at the end where the Chief Stewart has discretion to award rerun for pylons down "after the timing finish line"

Gotta confess I'm reading from the 2010 book. So based on what you said I looked up the 2011 wording. I love it. 7.4 says return at 80% and 7.9.2 says return slowly. What could cause any confusion here?


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