Discussion of local classes for '09

[Jason Uyeda]

If that's the case, I think it would be simpler with the alternatives we're discussing. Anyone who wants SP on street tires can essentially run in one of the ST classes, including the proposed "Super ST" class (though possibly excepting a few cars like the Lotus) or in CSM with the street tire change.

Not sure how much of a difference it makes for our region, but there are enough differences in allowances between SP and ST that it's likely many SP cars couldn't legally run ST. I certainly couldn't slap some street tires on my S2k and run it in a ST class... So there could be some benefit to have a street tire class for SP, although if CSM changed to 140+ they could just run there...

[Doug Teulie]

AM on street tires

[Max Hayter]

My personal opinion is to keep it simple - creating an STX2/STU2 with various local rules and car exclusions is going to lead to a nightmare of squabbling/complaining about the competitiveness of various cars. Try explaining that lot in tech to some new guy - it's confusing enough already.

I like the CSM-ST idea. Most noobs show up without R-Tires and with various mods that exclude them from classes where they might be competitive. CSM-ST would really become a run what you brung, with people on an even footing with tires. CSM could still exist, or disbanded of there is little interest.

[Reijo Silvennoinen]

Has there been any thought given to simply applying a "PAX" or Street tire factor to cars on street tires? A couple of local clubs apply a factor of 0.98 to street-tired vehicles......maybe not quite right IMHO.....maybe .975 would be closer??? Then you can keep them in the class.

Reijo

[Jayson Woodruff]

Jay, tell me if I'm correct. You're suggesting we index all the SP, P and M classes for use with street tires and consolidate them in two classes, for example "Super SK 1" and "Super SK 2", right?

And SM and SM2. I wouldn't include P and M if CSM is allowed. The number of SK like classes and how you split them could be argued later.

Look down the street at SFR
http://www.sfrscca.org/content/view/7535/175/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(rule #45)

or Phoenix.
http://www.azsolo.com/classes.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

they have 'Tire' classes like I'm suggesting, and they're very popular.

Then its a simple tire change would make a 'Regional' car into a 'National' car. This also opens the class up to ALL cars, not just the ones we think are getting left out.

Most importantly its simple (K.I.S.S.). Look how short the SK rules are in our sup regs. Defining a STU2 class and trying to balance it will take much more complication.

Jay W

[Robert Puertas]

Making CSM a street tire class seems to accomplish almost everything you're talking about. It really doesn't need to be any more complicated than that!

If you want to create a class to test out STX2 or STU2 or STR (or whatever you're going to call it) for purposes of informing a national debate, go ahead. You're in charge of the STAC. Write up what you and the STAC want to see, and lets offer it up to see if anyone bites. I don't see any down side to that as a region, and a potential upside if the class ends up going national and we've had people running it for a year or two...

[Sebastian Rios]

I understand what Jayson is saying now, and I like that a lot. If we do that, do we even need CSM?

[Robert Puertas]

I understand what Jayson is saying now, and I like that a lot. If we do that, do we even need CSM?

CSM is a keeper. I think we get a fair number of cars that don't really fit anywhere else.

Also, regarding Jayson's proposal, the idea that someone with a nationally prepped SP, SM, P or M car would run street tires seems laughable. Really, I think Bill's CSP Miata on street tires would destroy a street-tired CSM field. Hell, Doug Teulie's Scirocco on street tires would probably get the job done. Those guys could run CSM-SK if they want to cherry pick. Anyone else (not nationally prepped) should be fine in one of the SK or ST classes. If you're prepped beyond ST, or you have a car that's not eligible, CSM is the catch-all, and I really don't see the big difference between a 1.8 Miata with a supercharger, a 240Z with a cam, an EF civic with a b18, or a Beck 550 spyder, it's going to come down to car set-up and driver skill - even more so on street tires.

Hmmm, I wonder how the Noble would work on those new Dunlops... }:)

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

I think we get a fair number of cars that don't really fit anywhere else.

Says the guy co-driving the Ford Contour with an Elise body kit.

[Robert Puertas]

I think we get a fair number of cars that don't really fit anywhere else.

Says the guy co-driving the Ford Contour with an Elise body kit.

Shhhh! We're trying to convince the E-mod guys it's a 2nd gen MR2 body kit!

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

Shhhh! We're trying to convince the E-mod guys it's a 2nd gen MR2 body kit!

You need these

[Mike Simanyi]

CSM is a keeper. I think we get a fair number of cars that don't really fit anywhere else.

Also, regarding Jayson's proposal, the idea that someone with a nationally prepped SP, SM, P or M car would run street tires seems laughable.

In my opinion, Robert raises some good points. CSM covers certain cars that aren't eligible even in XP or Mod, so I think we should keep it.

I also agree that anyone with a car prepped for Tour use in SP, SM, P or M is almost guaranteed to run R compounds. I can't imagine trying to be competitive at a Tour, Pro or Nationals after driving the season on street tires. I'm still trying to shake off my street tire habits and I haven't driven on them since April.

Furthermore I'm concerned about the potential for more timing and scoring problems resulting from a street tire index in the SP and SM classes and how they may add to delays. I'd like to make sure we're taking every step possible to have final results and updated points rapidly so everyone knows where they stand. It's good for competition, it's good for participation and it's good for our region. Perhaps Rick could comment on this since the burden largely falls on him.

That said, I started this thread to ask "What can we do with local classes to improve participation and roll out a better Welcome mat?" I'm fine with whatever we decide as a region.

Mike

[Rick Brown]

Has there been any thought given to simply applying a "PAX" or Street tire factor to cars on street tires? A couple of local clubs apply a factor of 0.98 to street-tired vehicles......maybe not quite right IMHO.....maybe .975 would be closer??? Then you can keep them in the class.

Reijo

This would be easy. We already have it available for Stock classes for use with Historic cars on street tires. When you register you pick ASX thru HSX as your class which applies the extra .975. With Will's online system I think it's restricted to use with Hist, but in the timing computer they can be chosen with any indexed class. I'd just have to add the rest of the classes.

Just realized I haven't updated those. They don't really just apply .975, they have an index which is the base stock index times .975. But I haven't updated those with the current base PAX for each class this year. Dang, hope there weren't any close finishes this year in Hist, could change all the results......

[Christine Grice]

In my opinion, Robert raises some good points. CSM covers certain cars that aren't eligible even in XP or Mod, so I think we should keep it.

Furthermore I'm concerned about the potential for more timing and scoring problems resulting from a street tire index in the SP and SM classes and how they may add to delays. I'd like to make sure we're taking every step possible to have final results and updated points rapidly so everyone knows where they stand. It's good for competition, it's good for participation and it's good for our region. Perhaps Rick could comment on this since the burden largely falls on him.

That said, I started this thread to ask "What can we do with local classes to improve participation and roll out a better Welcome mat?" I'm fine with whatever we decide as a region.

Mike

I think that Rick is correct, we already do a couple indexed classes so we know that the computer can handle this, just look at Historic or SK1/SK2. A lot of the time problems arise from the cars not having their class including index posted properly on the side of their car. Example, PAX, someone runs a car in STU trim for a while then changes it to BSP trim. It will show up in the computer with an option for either index but looking at the car you can't always tell which one is correct so one time it gets entered as PAXBSP and the next time up to line it gets entered as PAXSTU. But I digress.

As for CSM. The class was originally created when SM and SM2 did not exist. Look at the class for this year. Steve Abbot is leading the points race, but he has only attended 4 events. I think that the class would be more useful if it required street tires. Then again, I don't know which class the Noble fits in, but that is one car that not very many people that we really want to attract will be bringing out. (sorry Robert and Randy) Most everyone (not the Noble) that has autocross tires also fits into one of the SCCA classes.

One last thing, stay tuned, I have an interesting Idea but I need to work out some details first.

[Sebastian Rios]

It looks like we are pretty much in agreement on CSM being limited to street tires.

Now what about a 2 seater STX/U class?
Jay pointed out that a prepped car for our local class would not have a place to go for National competition, but what about SP? They wouldn't necessarily be at the top of the heap, but would still be able to play at the tours and divisionals. Then later they have the option of going to SP in earnest.
I realize that the rules progression from ST to SP isn't completely linear, but the new brake rules get them closer. What else might a ST competitor have to "downgrade" to be legal in SP?

[Bob Beamesderfer]

A lot of the time problems arise from the cars not having their class including index posted properly on the side of their car. Example, PAX, someone runs a car in STU trim for a while then changes it to BSP trim. It will show up in the computer with an option for either index but looking at the car you can't always tell which one is correct so one time it gets entered as PAXBSP and the next time up to line it gets entered as PAXSTU. But I digress.

Isn't that more of a problem with how the car/class was described in the DRIVER'S registration for an event?

[Mike Simanyi]

Rick,

Could you clarify that a bit for me? Are you saying we'll let them run in the correct class, say CSP, but with a street tire index, or are you saying we'll have an entirely new class - CSX - in which all street-tired CSP cars will compete? If we're adding 12+ new classes for year-end trophies, that could become quite costly.

I'll tell you another reason why I don't like an street tire index within the same class: you aren't competing head-to-head and don't know how much time you need to make up. If I'm competing against another SM car and he has a 64.13 vs my 64.38, I know I need to go .25 seconds faster. If that same guy's 64.13 is vs my 66.72 but he's on R compounds and I'm on street tires, I gotta break out the computer to see where I stand and how much time I need to shave.

More food for thought...

Mike

[Aaron Goldsmith]

I'll tell you another reason why I don't like an street tire index within the same class: you aren't competing head-to-head and don't know how much time you need to make up. If I'm competing against another SM car and he has a 64.13 vs my 64.38, I know I need to go .25 seconds faster. If that same guy's 64.13 is vs my 66.72 but he's on R compounds and I'm on street tires, I gotta break out the computer to see where I stand and how much time I need to shave.

And the second it rains the indexs are useless. I mean come on, I PAXed 4th at the pro finale because an STi on dunlops on a short coarse in the rain is like magic, something no index can take into account.

[Rick Brown]

It looks like we are pretty much in agreement on CSM being limited to street tires.

Not with me. This idea completely goes against the concept of CSM, IMHO.

[Steve Ekstrand]

Just a pet peeve....

SM/SM2 didn't fully solve the CSM problem, XP did. SM is far from an unlimited class and even minor interior stripping is illegal. I constantly see registration suggesting a stripped ricer can run SM or CSM. No, that would be CSM or probably XP.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

We need to ask what potential group of cars/competitors we're not serving. Forget about national class divisions for now. Instead ask these questions:

What cars?
What mods?
What tires?

I think those who run R-comps or slicks are well served with CSM and the national classes. So the the answer to the last question is street tires, 140 tread wear and above. Converting CSM to a class in which R-comps or street tires with an index can run can answer all three questions.

If I've repeated any of the previously stated ideas, I apologize in advance. ;)

[Rick Brown]

Rick,

Could you clarify that a bit for me? Are you saying we'll let them run in the correct class, say CSP, but with a street tire index, or are you saying we'll have an entirely new class - CSX - in which all street-tired CSP cars will compete? If we're adding 12+ new classes for year-end trophies, that could become quite costly.

I'll tell you another reason why I don't like an street tire index within the same class: you aren't competing head-to-head and don't know how much time you need to make up. If I'm competing against another SM car and he has a 64.13 vs my 64.38, I know I need to go .25 seconds faster. If that same guy's 64.13 is vs my 66.72 but he's on R compounds and I'm on street tires, I gotta break out the computer to see where I stand and how much time I need to shave.

More food for thought...

Mike

The additional classes that were created for Historic, CSX through HSX (stock classes on street tires) cannot be entered independly, only as a base class of Historic. The only exist as a simple way to adjust for those in Hist running on street tires. If I made more to add the other categories, it would be the same. You can't enter the street tire version of a regular class directly, it's only used as a base class for an indexed class. In Historic, despite the fact that all classes are eligible, they felt it was only needed for stock classes as they were the only ones likely to compete on street tires.

Aas far as competing head-to-head, standings and times on the computer include indexing. It's no different than PAX.

[Marshall Grice]

What else might a ST competitor have to "downgrade" to be legal in SP?

wings and body kits come to mind.

[Rick Brown]

Who started this thread, anyway? Hmmm, first chance to compare the philosophies if the candidates...........

[Bob Beamesderfer]

And the second it rains the indexs are useless. I mean come on, I PAXed 4th at the pro finale because an STi on dunlops on a short coarse in the rain is like magic, something no index can take into account.

But we're not talking about strictly AWD STU cars on street tires in the rain on a short Pro Solo course.

This about creating a new regional street tire class that will capture car and prep level not already served. If we insist on adherence to a national class, then we'll get nowhere.

Already we have four national classes:
STS
STX
STS2
STU

And two local street tire classes for Stock prepared cars:
SK1
SK2

And one local class for FrankenCars on R-comps:
CSM

Again, the question is what potential pool of participants is out there that doesn't fall into one of those?