Discussion of local classes for '09

[Mike Simanyi]

I'm posting this after hearing Toby's comments about one item and hearing a number of competitors comments about the second, due to my participation in the Street Touring Advisory Committee.

I'd like to know how much support we have for two new local classes: CSM-SK and a Street Touring class for the S2000 and other AS/BS cars not currently classed nationally.

CSM-SK - This class is our local "run what ya brung" class, and having an indexed version of it on street tires (140+) may allow us additional participation from those members who prefer not to run R compound tires. It will be handy to have it for those newbies who show up with what is essentially an SM car on street tires, as well as some (like Art) who'd like to reign in tire expenses on their otherwise-SM - or beyond - car.

STA - I recommend this class conforms with the STX rules specified for National use, extending the ruleset to the S2000, 350Z, NC Miata and Z3s / Z4s. Are there any other cars our members would like to include in the category? In '09, FWD and RWD STX cars are allowed 9" wheels and 265 tires. I suggest a smaller tire / wheel combo for the class to minimize expense, but I'd be interested in hearing suggestions on it. In particular, a 7.5" wheel and 245 tire would likely provide a good competitive base between the various cars.

If I see a lot of support for either or both of these, I'll probably start a poll (or ask Aaron to start one) to better quantify our opinions.

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Edited to summarize where I think the conversation is going as of 7:50 pm on 9/30:

New class: Super ST. All Stock classified cars not classed for ST run under the STU rules. Requires 140+ treadwear tires.
Modify CSM. Run what ya brung... on 140+ treadwear tires. (Picks up all SP cars on street tires.)
Former CSM drivers who want to stick with R compounds go to their respective SM classes.

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Mike

[Rick Brown]

Sorry, but CSM-SK sounds like an oxymoron to me.

[Jayson Woodruff]

How about some sort of "SKother". All non-ST tire classes paxed together, including CSM, excluding Stock and HIST since they already have popular local ST solutions.

One class might be unmanageable, so it may need to be split up. (SL1 and SL2?).

Note this will subtract from a lot of 'classic' classes and will dilute the competition there. I we were to want to try, I'd provisionally put them in Nov and Dec to get a feel for how many people would run them and hash out any rules problems before the first points season.

Jay W

[Bob Beamesderfer]

What about the NB Miata? Not eligible for STS2.

[Jason Uyeda]

STA... Hmm, where to start... I think a wheel width limitation of less than 8.5" is going to exclude some vehicles you want, like the Z. I'd just leave it unlimited and cap the tire size at 285 for fwd/rwd and 245 (or 255 or 265?) for awd or stock tires.

Why not allow any stock classed car, other than cars classed in SS. And then possibly add some cars to an inclusion list (Cayman S/Boxster S) in the future if warranted.

[Mike Simanyi]

Sorry, but CSM-SK sounds like an oxymoron to me.

I happen to agree, but if our members want it and it helps our participation... I'm all for it. I think the best use of this is to avoid newbies from being blown out in SM due to excessive mods putting them beyond SP, but frankly we have Time Only primary runs for that sort of occasion, and typically I've seen three or four guys show up who really just want to race each other, despite different levels of prep. Time Only is perfect for them, lets us schedule them as flexibly as possible, and even allows us to "up sell" X-runs after they do their primary runs.

What about the NB Miata? Not eligible for STS2.

Do you think NB Miatas will want to compete on equivalent street tires with S2000s, 350Zs, and NC Miatas? I don't really have any problem with them being there... but I question how useful that option may be.

Food for thought...

Mike

[Mike Simanyi]

STA... Hmm, where to start... I think a wheel width limitation of less than 8.5" is going to exclude some vehicles you want, like the Z. I'd just leave it unlimited and cap the tire size at 285 for fwd/rwd and 245 (or 255 or 265?) for awd or stock tires.

Why not allow any stock classed car, other than cars classed in SS. And then possibly add some cars to an inclusion list (Cayman S/Boxster S) in the future if warranted.

I like this idea, but I'd still suggest maintaining at least the STX limits on wheels and tires. Going narrower allows the NC Miata to compete.

The Cayman S and Boxster S are SS cars, aren't they?

If we had more Lotus owners nearby, I'd love to have an STLotus spec class for the naturally aspirated Elise and Exige. I think they're the perfect combination of light weight, moderate power, and incredible capability that could make for a very fun ST endeavor.

Keep the ideas coming!

Mike

[Jason Uyeda]

STA... Hmm, where to start... I think a wheel width limitation of less than 8.5" is going to exclude some vehicles you want, like the Z. I'd just leave it unlimited and cap the tire size at 285 for fwd/rwd and 245 (or 255 or 265?) for awd or stock tires.

Why not allow any stock classed car, other than cars classed in SS. And then possibly add some cars to an inclusion list (Cayman S/Boxster S) in the future if warranted.

I like this idea, but I'd still suggest maintaining at least the STX limits on wheels and tires. Going narrower allows the NC Miata to compete.

The Cayman S and Boxster S are SS cars, aren't they?

If we had more Lotus owners nearby, I'd love to have an STLotus spec class for the naturally aspirated Elise and Exige. I think they're the perfect combination of light weight, low power, and incredible capability that could make for a very fun ST endeavor.

Keep the ideas coming!

Mike

The Cayman S/Boxster S are currently SS cars but are somewhat "tweener" cars. No real chance in SS, but too fast (IMHO) for AS. Much like the FD RX7 and base C5. At the local level it may not matter too much if those cars are in STA, but you could make an argument for all of the cars left out of STA also deserving a class. Not that I'm a fan of adding classes, but I think there's potential for more quite a few slightly modded C5 Z06s, Elises, etc to come out on street tires. Maybe this would be a better idea than CSM SK?

With the NB Miata and Spyder, STA may be more attractive than STU simply because there are likely to be more similar car types...

[Mike Simanyi]

Toby has another Really Good Idea that he'll post about this evening.

News at 10:00!

Mike

[Steve Ekstrand]

Just don't use the 7.5" wheel limit. That one is crazy. Inane. Costly. And hurts cars that can't fit 15's over their brakes because once the 225-45-15 Toyo's come out it will be game over for the 17" dunlops.

Just a question... How many active CSM cars are ineligible/illegal for XP? When that class was invented we didn't have SM/SM2/XP. Now we have three classes these cars can play within SCCA rules. Is it time to change all of CSM to SK tires and tell the R compound guys to go find an SCCA class to play in.

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

I like this idea, but I'd still suggest maintaining at least the STX limits on wheels and tires. Going narrower allows the NC Miata to compete.

Mike

Perhaps if you had been fast enough to see the leaders at natls, you might have spotted NCs with 285s on 18X9.5s in CSP. Which also seem to turn in times that would be competitive with faster SP classes.

Given the choice of a C5 or NC, both on 285 ST tires, I think the NC will win every time. What good is 405hp with ST tires and 2wd.

A number of other regions have already done a class like this, they call it STU2, using STU rules and allowing most every bastard child 2wd car - just watch out for the Porsche and Lotus. ;)

Your STX rules force the stock 350Z driver (and others) to downgrade in wheel/tire size. Where an STU rules set allows people to upgrade, or run the OE parts.

Or you can use some type of hybrid rule set, one that allows OE wheel/tire size (even if bigger than STX allows) so big cars guys can run OE, while still allowing small car guys to upgrade without having to work over the fenders.

Looks like you have cracked the lid on a big bowl of :barf: have fun working this out.

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

Toby has another Really Good Idea that he'll post about this evening.

News at 10:00!

Mike

Everyone move to Palm Spring and become a hermit living in the mountains off the land?

[Mike Simanyi]

Just a question... How many active CSM cars are ineligible/illegal for XP? When that class was invented we didn't have SM/SM2/XP. Now we have three classes these cars can play within SCCA rules. Is it time to change all of CSM to SK tires and tell the R compound guys to go find an SCCA class to play in.

You and Toby think alike. News canceled for 10:00! (He still has some fun ideas for a local ST class name though...)

[Mike Simanyi]

Toby has another Really Good Idea that he'll post about this evening.

News at 10:00!

Mike

Everyone move to Palm Spring and become a hermit living in the mountains off the land?

Given what the markets are doing, his move is looking like Sheer Genius right about now...

[Steve Ekstrand]

I thought sheer genius was buying a 1000 shares of NOV at 43.22 yesterday afternoon... As much as it freaked my wife out to spend her 335 coupe money on a crashing oil services stock on the worst point drop day in history.

[Robert Puertas]

Just require our current CSM to run 140 treadwear tires.
I think this only impacts a couple of the players in this class anyway, and [cough] Steve Abbot [cough] should be running in SM2 anyway, and not cherry picking!

STU2 should allow unlimited wheel & tire, and any car specifically listed in Appendix A Stock & Street Prepared categories, but not otherwise classified in Street Touring.
Yes, the Elise will be the car to have. But at least the Vettes can put max tires on, and the S2000 and NC Miata will be competetive.
Also, keep in mind that only the base model Elise comes with eligible tires. The Exige and sport pack Elise come with Yokohama A048's which carry a treadwear rating of 60.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

What about the NB Miata? Not eligible for STS2.

Do you think NB Miatas will want to compete on equivalent street tires with S2000s, 350Zs, and NC Miatas? I don't really have any problem with them being there... but I question how useful that option may be.

Food for thought...

Mike

True, but given the level of prep that's legal in ST, there could be NB owners that would be interested. Right now it's CS or CS-SK1 or CSP.

With the local classes, you're weighing accessibility to the sport vs. a class designed for well-preped cars driven by experienced drivers.

[Marshall Grice]

Just require our current CSM to run 140 treadwear tires.I think this only impacts a couple of the players in this class anyway, and [cough] Steve Abbot [cough] should be running in SM2 anyway, and not cherry picking!

STU2 should allow unlimited wheel & tire, and any car specifically listed in Appendix A Stock & Street Prepared categories, but not otherwise classified in Street Touring.Yes, the Elise will be the car to have. But at least the Vettes can put max tires on, and the S2000 and NC Miata will be competetive.
Also, keep in mind that only the base model Elise comes with eligible tires. The Exige and sport pack Elise come with Yokohama A048's which carry a treadwear rating of 60.

those both sound like cool ideas that have the potential to increase participation.

[Sebastian Rios]

This is now my third attempt to respond...I'll make it quick this time.

If we add classes, they should fall in line with national classes, I like a STX2 with the STX ruleset including the '09 Allowances. You guys can figure out what cars are included.

Make CSM 140 treadwear minimum. If you can run R-comps, you can run the right national class.

[Jason Uyeda]

Just require our current CSM to run 140 treadwear tires.
STU2 should allow unlimited wheel & tire, and any car specifically listed in Appendix A Stock & Street Prepared categories, but not otherwise classified in Street Touring.
Yes, the Elise will be the car to have. But at least the Vettes can put max tires on, and the S2000 and NC Miata will be competetive.
Also, keep in mind that only the base model Elise comes with eligible tires. The Exige and sport pack Elise come with Yokohama A048's which carry a treadwear rating of 60.

If you're going to allow SS cars or cars not classed in Stock (GTR, R8, Gallardo, GT2), it'll only take one of the SS+ cars to kill the class locally. Even if they can be competitive, how many S2000s are going to want to run against a GTR if they "think" they can't beat it? But if we did change CSM to 140+, then we would only need STA (All Stock class cars except SS) and all the SS+ cars could run CSM (and probably be very competitive) assuming they had 140+ tires...

I agree with others that there's plenty of classes for r-compound CSM cars, and I'd rather only 1 class get added to keep from diluting others...

[Leonard Cachola]

True, but given the level of prep that's legal in ST, there could be NB owners that would be interested. Right now it's CS or CS-SK1 or CSP.

CS-SK2!

[Jayson Woodruff]

We should also consider mod progression. An STX2 or STU2 type class (a 2 seater with full STX/U mods) would cause a Miata/Corvette/Lotus driver to mildly mod their car and have nowhere but SM2 to go to for National competition. At least with my idea (3rd message on this thread), its just a matter of swapping race wheels on and off, just like SK does to get to 'SCCA Stock'.

Jay W

If we add classes, they should fall in line with national classes, I like a STX2 with the STX ruleset including the '09 Allowances. You guys can figure out what cars are included.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

True, but given the level of prep that's legal in ST, there could be NB owners that would be interested. Right now it's CS or CS-SK1 or CSP.

CS-SK2!

SK-whatever

[Mike Simanyi]

We should also consider mod progression. An STX2 or STU2 type class (a 2 seater with full STX/U mods) would cause a Miata/Corvette/Lotus driver to mildly mod their car and have nowhere but SM2 to go to for National competition. At least with my idea (3rd message on this thread), its just a matter of swapping race wheels on and off, just like SK does to get to 'SCCA Stock'.

Jay W

If we add classes, they should fall in line with national classes, I like a STX2 with the STX ruleset including the '09 Allowances. You guys can figure out what cars are included.

Jay, please elaborate on your suggestion. I'm not grasping it.

Jay and Sebastian, anything we do with regard to this local class simply won't have a reasonable National class to play in... although there may be some possibility of an additional ST class in the next couple years. Anyone who reads SCCAForums.com must have seen all the S2000 drivers clamoring for an ST class. With the alignment of most ST allowances in SP for '09, anyone participating locally in this class would likely run SP in a Tour setting, particularly if they haven't replaced bumpers or added wings.

Mike

[Mike Simanyi]

Jay, tell me if I'm correct. You're suggesting we index all the SP, P and M classes for use with street tires and consolidate them in two classes, for example "Super SK 1" and "Super SK 2", right?

If that's the case, I think it would be simpler with the alternatives we're discussing. Anyone who wants SP on street tires can essentially run in one of the ST classes, including the proposed "Super ST" class (though possibly excepting a few cars like the Lotus) or in CSM with the street tire change.

With CSM running on 140+ street tires, the current CSM competitors who want to remain on R compounds or slicks can run the appropriate Street Mod class or possibly even XP. Side note: I think there's a proposal for FWD SM cars to have their own class, though I don't know the status of it.

It's not perfect, but I find it a little easier to wrap my small brain around.

Mike