Discussion of local classes for '09

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Aaron Goldsmith
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Re: New local classes for '09

Post by Aaron Goldsmith »

Earl Merz wrote: What happens when a street legal bike engined 7 clone comes in with DOT-R tires? A-Mod? That is really the only National class it's legal for(unless you built the chassis to B-Mod rules).
I'd tell'm that they should put a Formula Atlantic motor in it. (fastest car i've ever driven)

I gotta say i agree with the street tire side.. the only car I've seen show up that is anything like the car that CSM was made for in the last year or so was that 1/4 midget thing.. which is totaly not CSM legal, haha.
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Richard Jung
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Re: New local classes for '09

Post by Richard Jung »

I think a CSM -SK would be a good class for typical modded cars. :thumbup:

It would provide a place to play for street tire cars like 350Zs, Hondas, Evo/STi, BMWCCA cars, Vettes, supercharged Mustangs, Cobra kit cars, VWs, Minis, 240sx, exotic cars :), etc., with CF hoods, boost controllers, lowering springs, strut braces, wider rims, etc.

We just need to spin it, where as SM is competitive, CSM is the newbie "fun" class.
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Re: New local classes for '09

Post by Jason Uyeda »

Earl Merz wrote:
Robert Puertas wrote:Simplifying things is good.
We seem to make this all too complicated just because we think we can.

Make CSM a street tire class and also make it the default novice class. This makes life so much simpler.

What happens when a street legal bike engined 7 clone comes in with DOT-R tires? A-Mod? That is really the only National class it's legal for(unless you built the chassis to B-Mod rules).
Actually, it wouldn't necessarily be legal, even for AM... I think if it simply didn't have a master cut-off switch it wouldn't be legal in AM... Most 7 clones wouldn't necessarily have a high enough rollbar either... At least I think...

Also, the current CSM rules say the following, "Vehicles eligible for CSM must be capable of being licensed for street use in California, shall be run on DOT approved tires and must meet all SCCA Solo2 Safety requirements."... Doesn't this mean any vehicle that can't be smogged isn't legal???

Not to say that most would want to protest the above issues. But maybe we need to re-word the CSM rules?

I must say that I think it would be good try a 140+ CSM class (either by adding a new class or changing the current CSM). There's plenty of R tires classes to currently play in. I don't think CSM is necessarily a good novice class as the differences in car prep would be huge and very likely discouraging.
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Re: New local classes for '09

Post by Glenn Duensing »

Jason Uyeda wrote:Also, the current CSM rules say the following, "Vehicles eligible for CSM must be capable of being licensed for street use in California, shall be run on DOT approved tires and must meet all SCCA Solo2 Safety requirements."... Doesn't this mean any vehicle that can't be smogged isn't legal???
SCCA SP 15. STREET PREPARED CATEGORY
Cars running in Street Prepared Category must have been series produced with normal road touring equipment, capable of being licensed for normal road use in the United States

How many current SP cars here could meet State of CA smog rules? Legally they would have to be registered in CA since most owners live in CA.... :)

BTW, when did the supps for CSM change from this in 2003: CALIFORNIA STREET MODIFIED (CSM)
Any car which complies with Street Prepared Catagory Rules, with the following exceptions/allowances:
(1) Engines and drive trains are un restricted - including engine swaps, air induction, carburetion/fuel injection, transmissions, drive shafts, and rear ends/axles/differentials.
(2) Suspension is un restricted - Any modification is allowed.
(3) Electrical system - Must have operational tail lights, brake lights, headlights, wipers and turn signals. Instrumentation is unrestricted.
(4) Bodywork:
(a) Body panels (including hoods, fenders & trunk lids), may be substituted with panels of alternate materials.
(b) Hood scoops are allowed.
(c) Spoilers and/or wings are unrestricted.
(d) Must have a minimum of two seats. (rear seats may be removed)

to this :
CALIFORNIA STREET MODIFIED (CSM)
Vehicles eligible for CSM must be capable of being licensed for street use in California, shall be run on DOT approved tires and must meet all SCCA Solo2 Safety requirements.

:? :? :? :? :? :? :? :?
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Robert Puertas
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Re: New local classes for '09

Post by Robert Puertas »

Jason Uyeda wrote: I don't think CSM is necessarily a good novice class as the differences in car prep would be huge and very likely discouraging.
What could be more discouraging than losing to that other novice in a stock Mini despite turning a faster time, simply because his HS index is softer than the EM index placed on your supercharged & sub frame connected Mustang?
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Re: New local classes for '09

Post by Kurt Rahn »

And overall, my personal preference isn't to develop contingency plans for every possible outcome. I prefer a focused approach to solving issues. If we continue to advertise outside and keep the novice entrants up, the focus needs to be on accommodating that inflow.
I agree. If you try to solve every problem, you end up solving nothing. Identify your target audience(s), then try to hit as big a sweet spot as possible. If something needed to be tweaked or added, we could do so the following year using the data gathered from the current year. But the KISS principle definitely seems to apply here, for everyone's sake.
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Re: New local classes for '09

Post by Marshall Grice »

Glenn Duensing wrote: SCCA SP 15. STREET PREPARED CATEGORY
Cars running in Street Prepared Category must have been series produced with normal road touring equipment, capable of being licensed for normal road use in the United States

How many current SP cars here could meet State of CA smog rules? Legally they would have to be registered in CA since most owners live in CA.... :)
what a lame attempt at stiring the pot. :roll:
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Re: New local classes for '09

Post by Kurt Rahn »

what a lame attempt at stiring the pot.
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Re: New local classes for '09

Post by Earl Merz »

Jason Uyeda wrote:Actually, it wouldn't necessarily be legal, even for AM... I think if it simply didn't have a master cut-off switch it wouldn't be legal in AM... Most 7 clones wouldn't necessarily have a high enough rollbar either... At least I think...

Also, the current CSM rules say the following, "Vehicles eligible for CSM must be capable of being licensed for street use in California, shall be run on DOT approved tires and must meet all SCCA Solo2 Safety requirements."... Doesn't this mean any vehicle that can't be smogged isn't legal???

Well, thats kinda my point. A street legal car like that has nowere to play other than CSM. If some company would come out with a GOOD UHP street tire that would fit a 13x9rim, I would be all for it. But as it is, good UHP tires only come in larger(taller and heavier) sizes.
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Marshall Grice
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Re: New local classes for '09

Post by Marshall Grice »

Earl Merz wrote:
Jason Uyeda wrote:Actually, it wouldn't necessarily be legal, even for AM... I think if it simply didn't have a master cut-off switch it wouldn't be legal in AM... Most 7 clones wouldn't necessarily have a high enough rollbar either... At least I think...

Also, the current CSM rules say the following, "Vehicles eligible for CSM must be capable of being licensed for street use in California, shall be run on DOT approved tires and must meet all SCCA Solo2 Safety requirements."... Doesn't this mean any vehicle that can't be smogged isn't legal???

Well, thats kinda my point. A street legal car like that has nowere to play other than CSM. If some company would come out with a GOOD UHP street tire that would fit a 13x9rim, I would be all for it. But as it is, good UHP tires only come in larger(taller and heavier) sizes.
why does class matter for this car? Where ever it runs it will be running alone. just take time-only runs?
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Re: New local classes for '09

Post by Christine Grice »

Robert Puertas wrote:
Jason Uyeda wrote: I don't think CSM is necessarily a good novice class as the differences in car prep would be huge and very likely discouraging.
What could be more discouraging than losing to that other novice in a stock Mini despite turning a faster time, simply because his HS index is softer than the EM index placed on your supercharged & sub frame connected Mustang?
Being told that you, in your stock mini, need to run heads up with that guy over there in a corvette?
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Re: New local classes for '09

Post by Jason Uyeda »

2 things...

1) I think I somewhat misunderstood the CSM/Novice thing, if the suggestion is to PAX the CSM class... I was only thinking of CSM as it currently is/perceived (anything on DOT tires, no index). I like the idea of the current CSM, although I do think there may be better participation if it was 140+.

2) The difference between SP and CSM is that CSM specifically states California... Although I'm not sure if there are any states left that would allow you to register a newer car with the cat removed...
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Re: New local classes for '09

Post by Marshall Grice »

Jason Uyeda wrote:Although I'm not sure if there are any states left that would allow you to register a newer car with the cat removed...
nothing in the rules (accept ST) says the car needs to pass smog in race trim.
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Re: New local classes for '09

Post by Robert Puertas »

Christine Berry wrote:
Robert Puertas wrote:
Jason Uyeda wrote: I don't think CSM is necessarily a good novice class as the differences in car prep would be huge and very likely discouraging.
What could be more discouraging than losing to that other novice in a stock Mini despite turning a faster time, simply because his HS index is softer than the EM index placed on your supercharged & sub frame connected Mustang?
Being told that you, in your stock mini, need to run heads up with that guy over there in a corvette?
And if both the Mini and the Vette are on the oem tires, what's the time differential going to be in the hands of a novice?
The street tires become the great equalizer.
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Re: New local classes for '09

Post by Christine Grice »

Yeah, that might be true, but is this novice (who doesn't know the great street tire equalizer factor) in the mini going to see it that way?
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Re: New local classes for '09

Post by Robert Puertas »

Christine Berry wrote:Yeah, that might be true, but is this novice (who doesn't know the great street tire equalizer factor) in the mini going to see it that way?
When he's close to or ahead of the vette he will! ;)
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Re: New local classes for '09

Post by Bob Beamesderfer »

Why is this so hard?

N1S for higher horsepower cars on 140+ wear street tires
N1 for higher horsepower cars on R comps

N2S for lower horsepower cars on 140+ wear street tires
N2 for lower horsepower cars on R comps

There you have four simple classes for two types of cars on either street tires or R comps. If you want to make it coincide with a Rookie of the Year award, then change it from Nxx to Rxx.

AGAIN, define the goal of creating new regional classes. Is it to increase REGIONAL participation? Or is it to eventually feed newcomers into nationally recognized classes in such a way that they don't have to change their existing prep to be legal?

I suspect that it's the former. Are there an overwhelming number of novices whose cars weren't legal in a national class who became local standouts and who were not willing to build a car to a national specification?

I haven't seen that in the past 7 seasons.
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Re: New local classes for '09

Post by Christine Grice »

Robert Puertas wrote:
Christine Berry wrote:Yeah, that might be true, but is this novice (who doesn't know the great street tire equalizer factor) in the mini going to see it that way?
When he's close to or ahead of the vette he will! ;)
And how will the vette driver feel?
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Re: New local classes for '09

Post by Robert Puertas »

Christine Berry wrote:
Robert Puertas wrote:
Christine Berry wrote:Yeah, that might be true, but is this novice (who doesn't know the great street tire equalizer factor) in the mini going to see it that way?
When he's close to or ahead of the vette he will! ;)
And how will the vette driver feel?
Inadequate.

But why do you think he bought the Vette in the first place?
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Re: New local classes for '09

Post by Christine Grice »

:D ok, interesting point. So the question becomes, do we cater to the mini drivers or the corvette drivers ego? Which Novices do we want more? :D


yeah, I know, stirring the pot. :computer:
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Re: New local classes for '09

Post by Jason Uyeda »

Marshall Grice wrote:
Jason Uyeda wrote:Although I'm not sure if there are any states left that would allow you to register a newer car with the cat removed...
nothing in the rules (accept ST) says the car needs to pass smog in race trim.
Damn, my reply got lost.... Anyways...

My point was that for SP, the car needs to be, "capable of being licensed for normal road use in the United States", not CA, so it's possible that some state doesn't have emissions requirements that would keep you from licensing the car...

This does affect the current CSM rules since no SP car w/o a cat is legal for CSM (based on the current rule). Not to mention all the other SP and ST rules that allow modifications that won't pass smog in CA...

IMHO, CSM should be anything on DOT or better yet 140+ tires that also meets the safety rules.
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Re: New local classes for '09

Post by Glenn Duensing »

Jason Uyeda wrote:
Marshall Grice wrote:
Jason Uyeda wrote:Although I'm not sure if there are any states left that would allow you to register a newer car with the cat removed...
nothing in the rules (accept ST) says the car needs to pass smog in race trim.
Damn, my reply got lost.... Anyways...

My point was that for SP, the car needs to be, "capable of being licensed for normal road use in the United States", not CA, so it's possible that some state doesn't have emissions requirements that would keep you from licensing the car...

This does affect the current CSM rules since no SP car w/o a cat is legal for CSM (based on the current rule). Not to mention all the other SP and ST rules that allow modifications that won't pass smog in CA...

IMHO, CSM should be anything on DOT or better yet 140+ tires that also meets the safety rules.

Jason, the orginal rules didn't say anything about CA and that's why I asked when it was changed.
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Re: New local classes for '09

Post by Steve Ekstrand »

The original CSM was called Street Modified. When SCCA created a Street Modified class, the leadership in our region wanted to keep their SM name and change the name of the SCCA National class.... Reason some how prevailed over stubborn and bitter parochialism. The solution was CalClub's original version of Street Mod became California Street Mod.

SCCA rules and Federal emissions are not something with any logical structure that can be understood by mortals. Don't go down that road thinking you can be right or win an argument. It just doesn't work. Its the 1200lbs gorilla in the pink leisure suit sipping an umbrella drink in the corner of the room.
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Re: New local classes for '09

Post by Bob Beamesderfer »

Glenn Duensing wrote: Bob sometimes you take things way too...well you know. It was a small attempt at some humor and as Marshall said, it bombed.
Bob you should also read all of the SP rules where it says...While the rules of the Street Prepared Category have remained
essentially the same, the laws governing various aspects of streetdriven vehicles have changed over time. The original concept of this category as made up predominantly of street-driven vehicles has been rendered inappropriate. The SCCA does not encourage or condone the breaking of laws governing pollution control systems or the alteration of street-driven vehicles contrary to state and federal laws regarding their use. It continues to be the responsibility of the individual to comply with such state and federal laws

So if one removes any smog device in any State is breaking Federal laws. Yes SCCA yes you can but doesn't encourage or condone it.
You're right; I shouldn't take things you say seriously. :D

It's only illegal if the vehicle is operated on public highways. And, I'm well aware of the SP pre-amble, which basically says if you prepare your car to these rules and break the law, we didn't tell you that was OK. It has always been illegal to remove emissions devices and drive on a public road, so the SCCA's statement seems pointless. :roll:

If CSM is a catch-all class, then changing it to catch more participants is entirely logical.
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Re: New local classes for '09

Post by Bob Florey »

Bob Beamesderfer wrote:

If CSM is a catch-all class, then changing it to catch more participants is entirely logical.
It's a bit unclear how excluding cars with R tires catches more participants. People were always allowed to run street tires or R tires in CSM. Now it's to be street tires only?

CSM was started to allow maverick* cars a place to play - kit cars, engine swaps, street rods, dune buggies, more or less streetable cars modified beyond SP rules, etc. (If we had an archive, you could read all the old posts saying just that.)

In part, that was to let newbies with modified cars compete without sending them straight to the Prepapred or Modified classes. Bur, it was also meant for the regular competitor who just couldn't resist a few more modifications. Many (most?) such cars are high horsepower cars. Restricting them to street tires negates that power. Never mind that R tires are just more fun for anybody.

CSM is (was?) also a place where people who build their cars to other rule-sets (NASA, PCA, etc.) could play. A lot of those people use R tires. And, their cars are often not legasl in any regular SCCA class short of Prepared or Modified where they are totally out-classed by purpose-built cars.

The whole idea of CSM was to be inclusive, not exclusive. Banning R tires turns that on its head.

Under this proposal, my stock engined, street legal (cat and all) car would have to run in XP, FP or EM.

Logical? Only in an Orwellian world.

I am used to the SCCA obsoleting or outlawing my cars. I didn't think Cal Club would do likewise.


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