Historic class discussion

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David Barrish
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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby David Barrish » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:11 pm

First, thank you for all the input.

I am looking to help grow the class before all the drivers are members of AARP, not just the cars.

Opening the current Historic class to cars built up to 1982 brings in new blood. Most of these cars were built with the same DNA as thoes produced in the 60's. I offer the MGB and the BMW 320/318 E-21 as examples. Morgan is still building the same car.

Sebastian, you hit the nail on the head. I would offer that those of us running this class are not in any way thinking to what "over bore" an engine is currently running, or what cam specks a car is using. If we were balanced would we drive these old cars?

Historic 1, our current group is limited by of all things, TIRES. The cars running with the stock index use rims 6" wide, 13" and 15" tall.
Yes there are exceptions.

Historic 2, This is a class that gives the cars that have stopped coming out a place to run. The cars listed start the process.

David Barrish
Last edited by David Barrish on Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Aaron Goldsmith
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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Aaron Goldsmith » Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:00 pm

Doug Teulie wrote:
Steve Ekstrand wrote:Yes, but...

4 items in original post. 3&4 deal with age of cars.


I want the Hisroric driver's to have fun and enjoy driving the older cars. I would love to see good close racing. I agree that the class needs some updates. I am the new kid (my car is 32 years old like most of the rest of the active cars in the class) so I can offer my thoughts from a rookie's perspective.

Historic is one the most fun classes I have ever run. I like the toe to toe competition between the pairs like Steve and John Edwards. The 60's and 70's cars are very refreshing to see out racing and I would like to see more of them. The 60's Morgan and 60's Mustang have show great potential and continue to be very competitive against the majority of 70's cars that make up much of the class. I am sure if a 25 year and older on a rolling date was approved the class would no longer be fun. I think the BMW 320i is Historic however the BMW E30 325 is clearly part of a different generation of transportation history. The E36 is a very advanced car and in a short time the E36 would be eligible with a 25 year roll. The CRX would be eligible too. I am a big fan of the nicer 80's cars but I see a class divider when it comes to cars built in the mid 80's. My proposal would allow 80's cars to run in a new 80's class (Hist2 1983-1992 all) and let 60's and 70's cars run in Historic 1. Looking at class participation over the last 2 years I think pre 80's cars would be a healthy class.

It is nearly impossible to keep a 35 year old car in SCCA stock trim. It is not possible to get many of the parts and if you could find them many of the OEM parts are expensive and fail under racing conditions. It all comes down to performance advantages. If a piece of plastic trim is likely to be damaged by cones I think it should be removed from the car as long as it does not provide a significant performance advantage. The other underlining rule that I feel strongly about is appearance. A stock Historic car should look reasonably stock. Cutting the body or making changes that reduce the resale value, disfigure or present the car as modified should not allow the car to run with stock PAX. If the car is sitting on its lines but the springs have been replaced I don't see a problem. If the car is sitting 3 inches lower than the car's lines then the car is a candidate for Street Prepared PAX.


Looking at the results, it looks like there are 3 cars out of the 11 than ran in Hist at the last event that are actually legal for Hist. As of right now, it seems like there IS a rolling date, it's just rolling to whatever the other competitors are willing to let slide. Going by the 76 model year of a good portion of the competitors a 32 year rolling date is ok with everyone.

Sounds like people had similar arguments in the past about the 70's cars that Doug is making now about the 80's ones.. My only real point is.. might as well just give it a rolling date or stepped date like chuck specified since in 8-10 years people will be saying the exact same things Doug is saying about cars 10 years newer. That way people can plan for the changes in the class. No real skin off my nose though, no horse in the game here.

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Sebastian Rios
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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Sebastian Rios » Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:30 pm

From the perspective of an outsider, it seems like if you want to base the index off of a car's national class, the car should conform to that national class.

If you want to make it easier for current competitors, just ditch the current rules and create your own allowances.

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby David Barrish » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:18 pm

The Historic class has drawn a "line in the sand". It is the year 1968.

My 1976 BMW is allowed to compete as the 2002 model that can trace it's origin to the 1968 start of production.

Steve's 1976 Spitfire can trace it's roots to 1963.

Ted's 1956 Morgan is still being produced.

I am asking to move the line in the sand to 1982. For Historic 1.

Historic 2 give's the next round of old cars a place to run.

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Last edited by David Barrish on Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Doug Teulie
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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Doug Teulie » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:42 pm

I would volunteer as a referee on Historic modifications if I moved out of the class first. I am thining of moving out too.
Don’t take my statements below personally.
Many of the traditional SCCA class arguments don’t make sense in Historic. It takes some people 3 or more years to restore an old car from a pile of rusty junk. If the class advanced each year (25 year roll) you are better off not even trying to Solo your old car. It would be better to just show your car at car shows. SCCA has no prevision for real collector cars. What I hate about SCCA stock class is that you feel that you have to get a new car all the time to keep up. Don't tell a guy with a 40 year old car to start over at this point, respect him. Many of the historic cars are home rebuilt and not purchased at the big auto mall. I think that some of you need to walk the walk before you talk the talk, In other words you need to restore a car first before you make judgments on classing.

BTW my 70s car is SCCA legal however it is a street prepared car not a stock car. I have the PAX to prove it too. I got an invitation to run in Historic from several of my classmates.
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Sebastian Rios
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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Sebastian Rios » Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:35 pm

Doug Teulie wrote: Many of the historic cars are home rebuilt and not purchased at the big auto mall. I think that some of you need to walk the walk before you talk the talk, In other words you need to restore a car first before you make judgments on classing.

Sorry my post came off wrong, my point was that in order to preserve competition in an indexed class, the cars need to conform to class allowances for the index they are assigned. That's why I'm saying since you have the chance to re-write the rules, by all means make allowances that make sense for the HIST class as a whole, no need to conform to the SCCA rulebook; but the at some point folks still need to conform to the rules or the competition is unfair.

Besides, if I were to restore my 69 Datsun 1600, it would be to prep or mod level... ;)

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Doug Teulie » Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:01 pm

Sebastian Rios wrote:
Doug Teulie wrote: Many of the historic cars are home rebuilt and not purchased at the big auto mall. I think that some of you need to walk the walk before you talk the talk, In other words you need to restore a car first before you make judgments on classing.

Sorry my post came off wrong, my point was that in order to preserve competition in an indexed class, the cars need to conform to class allowances for the index they are assigned. That's why I'm saying since you have the chance to re-write the rules, by all means make allowances that make sense for the HIST class as a whole, no need to conform to the SCCA rulebook; but the at some point folks still need to conform to the rules or the competition is unfair.

Besides, if I were to restore my 69 Datsun 1600, it would be to prep or mod level... ;)


Great input! We are on the same page.
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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Earl Merz » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:07 am

Sebastian Rios wrote:if I were to restore my 69 Datsun 1600, it would be to prep or mod level... ;)



What are you waiting for? Get busy.


I found a rolling 1966 MGB chassis that might make a good EM project. My 65 is too complete and has too much family history to cut up for prep or mod. No if someone were to buy my other 4 project cars, I' could get busy restoring my 65. I've had brand new SUs on the shelf for 6+ years now :( It's time to finally put them to use...

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Re: Historic class discussion - Historic 2

Postby Don Green » Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:31 pm

So will we have the Historic 2 class for 2011 so I can run my '85 CRX, or am I allowed to run it in our existing Historic class?

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby David Barrish » Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:58 pm

Don,

What have you done to the car and what class are you hoping to run in?

As a point of disclosure, I am going to run a 1982 BMW 320i in HS. If allowed to compete in Historic I will be on tires harder than 140.

My car has an air cleaner.

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Don Green » Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:53 am

It's still SCCA GS legal, and that's the way I would run it. It's a very nice original car, and I'm not going to alter it. I drove it both regionally and nationally last year until I replaced it with my "late-model" '88 CRX.

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby David Barrish » Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:39 pm

Don,

The Historic class rules are posted in the supplemental regs. The class runs as a precursor of the what now looks like "SK 1 and 2"

Cars up to a certain year can run tires harder than "140" and are given a index offset, softer pax, and at the end of the day the competitors are listed by time.

The question of eligible cars is what my original post was about.

I would encourage the powers that be revisit this situation and open this up for discussion.

I understand the issues of car classing in Historic and would like the opportunity to work out the issues.

Again, Don thank you for bringing this up. There a number of cars sitting on the side lines with soft or hard tires that are not going to run in "National" level events.

Getting this fixed could increase the car count and bring in new blood.

David Barrish

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby KJ Christopher » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:58 pm

David Barrish wrote:I would encourage the powers that be revisit this situation and open this up for discussion.

The best way to do this is to PM or email your club rep (Rick Brown) to bring up during a committee meeting.
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Rick Brown
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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Rick Brown » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:12 pm

KJ Christopher wrote:
David Barrish wrote:I would encourage the powers that be revisit this situation and open this up for discussion.

The best way to do this is to PM or email your club rep (Rick Brown) to bring up during a committee meeting.

This class has never really been a committee thing. Pretty much designed and run by the participants, including allowing in specific cars that don't technically qualify. The committe has basically just rubberstamped what was presented.
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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Don Green » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:48 am

I propose we leave the existing Historic class as is and call it "Historic 1." Then create a Historic 2 class for 1969 and later cars that are at least 25 model-years old (that is, '69 thru '86 for 2011). For simplicity's sake, drop the exceptions list, and go strictly by model year. Leave the PAX and treadwear stuff in. Something like this:

HISTORIC 2:
- Any category car, 1969 or newer, but at least 25 model-years old, prepared in accordance with the SCCA National Solo Rule Book.
- Each car will be PAXed according to Appendix C of this Rules Book.
- All Stock Class cars running tires with a treadwear rating of 140 or higher will receive an additional PAX of .975 over their Stock Class PAX.

So David, would you run your 320i in this class?

I'm open to other exceptions or allowances for maintaining and running vintage cars, but I'm just trying to keep it simple. For example, I'd like to run something other than 13x5" wheels on my CRX and still have it considered "stock," but I can live with SCCA National Rules compliance if that's what the majority think is best.

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby David Barrish » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:05 am

Don,

The key for car running as "Stock" is going to be the availability of 13" tires. If, as you have requested, an alternative to the 13" on your Honda were would you draw the line?

Falken 615R's are available in 195/60R14 and will work on the 14X5 alloy 4 hole Honda rims. But they work better and last longer on wider rims. Honda has always been stingy with wheel width, I understand it has something to do with insurance company's and car performance.

BMW alloy rims are available in 14 X 6.5, do we compromise at 7" or less? Then to cover the loss of 14", this will happen, do we go to 15"?

I have rim sets in: 13X5, 13X5.5, 13X6, 14X6, 14X6.5, and 15X7. I have a older set of Yokohama AVS 195/50R15 on the 15"s on the car now. Even on these rims it looks like a "Steve Urkel" wannabe on the stock springs.

I would also like to make this Class available to the "SP" cars. Until we have any results we do hot have any reason to believe that we need more than one group.

Yes, I would run with this format.

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Robert Puertas » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:02 am

Allowing the wider wheels seems somewhat contradictory to the nature of a class called Historic.
Isn't the whole point of this class to create a place to play with cars that have been made obsolete by technology?
Especially ones where modifying them to make them competitive would diminish their value?

Since the only tool we have for creating any sort of parity is the RTP/PAX, it seems like you need to follow the SCCA rules and classing on which those are based. Giving an additional .975 multiplier for street tires is appropriate, but allowing things like wider wheels in Stock seems contrary to the goal of the class. Especially since Hoosier still makes a 13" dot-R!

So, could I run my 1985 Formula Ford in H2?
:-)

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Ron Tsumura » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:48 am

I thought John Fendel ran his Mustang in ESP Historic?

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Don Green » Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:35 pm

Robert Puertas wrote:Allowing the wider wheels seems somewhat contradictory to the nature of a class called Historic.
Isn't the whole point of this class to create a place to play with cars that have been made obsolete by technology?
Especially ones where modifying them to make them competitive would diminish their value?

Since the only tool we have for creating any sort of parity is the RTP/PAX, it seems like you need to follow the SCCA rules and classing on which those are based. Giving an additional .975 multiplier for street tires is appropriate, but allowing things like wider wheels in Stock seems contrary to the goal of the class. Especially since Hoosier still makes a 13" dot-R!

So, could I run my 1985 Formula Ford in H2?
:-)


Not only can I live with the SCCA rules, that's probably the best way to go. Starting to allow exceptions could easily get out of hand and become a rules committee nightmare.

I look forward to racing your Formula Ford (thank goodness for the PAX!). This could be a fun class!

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby John Fendel » Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:44 pm

I thought John Fendel ran his Mustang in ESP Historic?

I do and I use the cooresponding ESP PAX index to equalize the potential performance.
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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby David Barrish » Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:57 pm

Ron,

Yes, John has run his Mustang in the Historic class as an ESP car.

Robert,

There is one Stock Historic car in the class, #56. All other cars are have modified to some degree to include wider and in some cases smaller/shorter rims.

Johns Mustang is a reflection of updated technology and r-compound tires.

I leave it to the owners to work out the "value" piece, if you can make a change by bolting on on a mod that can be reversed in the future more the better.

Historic Two, as out lined by Don, gives a group of local drivers and cars a fresh place to run. I would like to support and run in a group that runs cars built to the SCCA regs.and on other than "R-comp" tires.

As expressed by Don, he was asking about other than his 13X5 rims. The current SK 1 and 2 class mirror what Historic Two could provide cars that no longer have a place to run on tires that will not break the bank.

I am prepared to run on any number of combination's of tires and rims, I am just offering up the obvious conclusion that the tire's are the tipping point going forward.

Falken 195/60R14's are available today at $80 each, the Vredstein 205/60/13's are more. I can run them on the 13X6 rims and not worry the point. But as long as SK is getting supported by the tire companies why not look out into the future and set the bar so that we have ready access to a number vendors that provide the users of their products a competitive prices.

And please, bring out the Ford. Until we have real data on what if anything this will do the world, it is just air.

David Barrish
Last edited by David Barrish on Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Ron Tsumura » Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:14 pm

I was wondering, if I ever get my 1973 Trans Am running, if it could run in the Historic Class?

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby David Barrish » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:49 pm

Ron,

Yes, and luck would have it a good friend of mine has one, running and has passed smog, that could join you.

Long live the Fire Chicken's.

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Ron Tsumura » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:32 pm

I was thinking HIST STU or ESP.
Need to go to aftermarket 17"X9" wheels to get competitive tires.
Stock 15X7 wheels won't cut the mustard.

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Doug Teulie » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:53 pm

Don Green wrote:Not only can I live with the SCCA rules, that's probably the best way to go. Starting to allow exceptions could easily get out of hand and become a rules committee nightmare.

I look forward to racing your Formula Ford (thank goodness for the PAX!). This could be a fun class!


Hmmm
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