Historic class discussion

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Robert Puertas
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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Robert Puertas » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:10 pm

Doug Teulie wrote:Hmmm


Yesss?

Don Green
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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Don Green » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:48 pm

So how do we move this forward? Do we all contact our respective club reps, and tell them to do a motion and vote on it at the next Board meeting?

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Rick Brown » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:19 pm

Don Green wrote:So how do we move this forward? Do we all contact our respective club reps, and tell them to do a motion and vote on it at the next Board meeting?

Provide us with the precise wording. Only issue is there isn't another board meeting. The committee occasionally makes decisions through online discussions so submit it and see what happens.
Since light is faster than sound...many people look bright until they speak...

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby David Barrish » Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:46 am

Using Don's post:

I propose we leave the existing Historic class as is and call it "Historic 1." Then create a Historic 2 class for 1969 and later cars that are at least 25 model-years old (that is, '69 thru '86 for 2011). For simplicity's sake, drop the exceptions list, and go strictly by model year. Leave the PAX and treadwear stuff in. Something like this:

HISTORIC 2:
- Any category car, 1969 or newer, but at least 25 model-years old, prepared in accordance with the SCCA National Solo Rule Book.
- Each car will be PAXed according to Appendix C of this Rules Book.
- All Stock Class cars running tires with a treadwear rating of 140 or higher will receive an additional PAX of .975 over their Stock Class PAX.

Adding:
All prep class cars running tires with a treadwear rating of 140 or higher will receive an additional PAX of .975 over their prep Class PAX.

David Barrish

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Robert Puertas
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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Robert Puertas » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:23 am

I think you could simplify it to this:

HISTORIC 2:
- Any category car, 1969 or newer, but at least 25 model-years old, prepared in accordance with the SCCA National Solo Rule Book.
- Each car will be PAXed according to Appendix C of this Rules Book.
- All cars running tires with a treadwear rating of 140 or higher in classes which allow Dot-R or slick tires will receive an additional time modifier of .975 in addition to their class PAX.
Last edited by Robert Puertas on Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby David Barrish » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:29 am

Looks good, I'm in.

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Don Green » Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:33 am

I'm in too. Who do we submit it to, and by what means (message board post, e-mail, etc.)?

BTW, I can't wait to see Robert's FF on 400 treadwear M&S tires to get that extra PAX advantage.

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Steve Ekstrand » Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:35 am

You might want to exclude ST category cars from the street tire pax kicker. 1988 CRX will be in Historic2 soon enough. I think it would be obvious and only an ass would try to claim it, but....
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Robert Puertas
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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Robert Puertas » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:49 am

Steve Ekstrand wrote:You might want to exclude ST category cars from the street tire pax kicker. 1988 CRX will be in Historic2 soon enough. I think it would be obvious and only an ass would try to claim it, but....


Good point Steve.
I edited my original wording.
Better?

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby David Barrish » Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:27 am

Thank you Steve.

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Steve Ekstrand » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:37 pm

Robert Puertas wrote:
Steve Ekstrand wrote:You might want to exclude ST category cars from the street tire pax kicker. 1988 CRX will be in Historic2 soon enough. I think it would be obvious and only an ass would try to claim it, but....


Good point Steve.
I edited my original wording.
Better?



Good way to do it, I wasn't sure how to word it simply.
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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Rick Brown » Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:41 pm

Robert Puertas wrote:I think you could simplify it to this:

HISTORIC 2:
- Any category car, 1969 or newer, but at least 25 model-years old, prepared in accordance with the SCCA National Solo Rule Book.
- Each car will be PAXed according to Appendix C of this Rules Book.
- All cars running tires with a treadwear rating of 140 or higher in classes which allow Dot-R or slick tires will receive an additional time modifier of .975 in addition to their class PAX.

Not a big fan of the .975 for cars other than stock. For one thing it will make a mess of the classing as I have to create another class for EVERY class with the extra index. I already have problems with people registering in the Historic stock tire classes (SSH through HSH) since they show up in the list of available classes. Having every class in the registration list have a Historic version would create confusion. Just seems unnecessary for the small group of cars that would use it. Having it for stock cars that are limited in tire choice due to wheel sizes makes some sense. But the other categories allow wheel changes which should allow more choices in tires.
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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby David Barrish » Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:44 pm

Rick,

Thank you for keeping this on track and providing workable solution.

Yes, I had hopes of running my 1975 BMW 2002 as an FSP car on 140 plus tires but I can give it up to move this along.

Are we still a "go"?

David Barrish

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Aaron Goldsmith » Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:05 pm

David Barrish wrote:Rick,

Thank you for keeping this on track and providing workable solution.

Yes, I had hopes of running my 1975 BMW 2002 as an FSP car on 140 plus tires but I can give it up to move this along.

Are we still a "go"?

David Barrish


Hey David, you should probably know that any changes made at the next meeting in January would usually be effective 2012.

Also, I'll just give a nod here to any of the folks who have had to redo the Run order and balance it in the past, another index class guys..

Not that i have a dog in this fight, all my cars are newish and i'll never do the run order again, haha.

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby David Barrish » Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:17 pm

Aaron,

If this helps increase to the total car count and move us back to 5 run groups we all win.

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Bill Martin » Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:07 pm

Rick Brown wrote: Not a big fan of the .975 for cars other than stock. For one thing it will make a mess of the classing as I have to create another class for EVERY class with the extra index.


But didn't someone say that only one car was actually stock and most had some mods? Are we going to force them to pretend they're stock in order to get pax credit for the street tires?

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Don Green » Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:20 pm

.
Bill Martin wrote:
Rick Brown wrote: Not a big fan of the .975 for cars other than stock. For one thing it will make a mess of the classing as I have to create another class for EVERY class with the extra index.


But didn't someone say that only one car was actually stock and most had some mods? Are we going to force them to pretend they're stock in order to get pax credit for the street tires?


Bill,

The rules for Historic have been on the books for years. We merely want similar rules for Historic 2. Regional events and competitors should be self-policing. I want to run my GS-legal car in Historic 2. I'm not aware of any good 13" 140 wear-rated tires, so I'll be on Hoosiers anyway. It sounds like many of the other cars will admittedly not be stock nor pretending to be stock, so I don't think we have a problem.

Sure hope we can make this happen for 2011!

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby David Barrish » Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:48 am

Don,

I'm in, January kick off. I would suggest numbers as follows: H2..

My BMW will be H2HS. I am going to start off on a set of Yokohama 048's that will fit on the 13X6 rims.

We have to start somewhere, lets see who joins in.

David Barrish

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Rick Brown » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:02 pm

David Barrish wrote:Don,

I'm in, January kick off. I would suggest numbers as follows: H2..

My BMW will be H2HS. I am going to start off on a set of Yokohama 048's that will fit on the 13X6 rims.

We have to start somewhere, lets see who joins in.

David Barrish

While it's easy for me to create another class (likely HST1 and HST2), there does need to be approval from the club reps. Give me the final wording and I will post on the Committee board for emergency approval. How many participants do you expect? What current classes will it draw from?
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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby David Barrish » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:42 pm

Returning to Don's post:

I propose we leave the existing Historic class as is and call it "Historic 1." Then create a Historic 2 class for 1969 and later cars that are at least 25 model-years old (that is, '69 thru '86 for 2011). For simplicity's sake, drop the exceptions list, and go strictly by model year. Leave the PAX and treadwear stuff in. Something like this:

HISTORIC 2:
- Any category car, 1969 or newer, but at least 25 model-years old, prepared in accordance with the SCCA National Solo Rule Book.
- Each car will be PAXed according to Appendix C of this Rules Book.
- All Stock Class cars running tires with a treadwear rating of 140 or higher in classes which allow Dot-R tires will receive an additional PAX of .975 over their Stock Class PAX.

There are two cars starting out in this group, I would request that interested parties let us know and we can add you to the list.

Having the class available will allow us to reach out other groups that might like to give our events a try but have been hesitant based on the cars they find as their competition. I see this as an opportunity to increase our numbers, not shift them.

David Barrish

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Don Green » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:30 pm

Rick,

Please submit the final wording from Dave's post above. I imagine the class might get 4 to 6 entrants at first by pulling a few of the older cars from various Stock and Street Prepared classes, and maybe the "later" cars that have been running in the existing Historic class. So initially it might be more of a redistribution of current competitors, but once the word spreads, we should pull in some new people from various mark clubs, etc. With any luck, it might grow to 10 to 12.

Thanks for your help

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Don Green » Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:05 pm

Rick,

So did the Historic 2 proposal get approved for 2011? Is that why there are Historic class listings for all the Stock classes (A Stock Historic, B Stock Historic, etc.) in addition the plain old "Historic"? If so, that's great, but I thought we were going to include all classes (Street Prepared, Prepared, etc.)

Thanks, Don

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Rick Brown » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:28 pm

Don Green wrote:Rick,

So did the Historic 2 proposal get approved for 2011? Is that why there are Historic class listings for all the Stock classes (A Stock Historic, B Stock Historic, etc.) in addition the plain old "Historic"? If so, that's great, but I thought we were going to include all classes (Street Prepared, Prepared, etc.)

Thanks, Don

You know, I'm not sure, but I don't think there were any objections. But I didn't get around to (OK, I forgot when I was updating to 2011 paxes) creating the class in the timing computer (which I don't have cuz I won't be at the event). While I can do it on MotorsportReg, it would not import without the class being in the timing computer. It's easy to do it retroactively.

ASH through HSH are only for use for stock cars running 140 or higher tires in Historic. It was never felt necessary to provide a special street tire index for other than stock cars. Plus since the only way to do it is create another 25 or so additional classes like the ASH-HSH ones, I not willing to create that extra confusion when someone looks at the class listing to pick a class to enter. When I get to it, the new classes will be HST1 and HST2 plus your base class. We will expect all Historic cars to have full class markings on their cars, we might let you get away with H1 & H2.

So for this event, just enter in HIST
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Re: Historic 2 Rules Addendum

Postby Don Green » Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:26 am

Rick,

Since the Historic 2 class is a provisional class this year, David Barrish and I would like to recommend an addendum to the rules:

"For stock class vehicles running stock tires (140 tread-wear rating or above): Vehicles that were originally equipped with 13 inch wheels may run 14 inch wheels of the same width and plus/minus ¼ inch offset."

After discussing this amongst ourselves and with some of the other competitors who have tried the class so far this year, this would encourage more people to bring their old cars out as they could be on similar tire compounds as those available to cars with 14 inch and larger wheels. No one makes a really good 13 inch street tire these days; we're lucky Falken and Dunlop are still making 14s. As you can see, the change is very limited, it's not a "plus 1" across the board or allowing any width or offset changes that could be considered an unfair advantage.

David and I have both been running on old 13 inch R-compound tires so far, but we would like to make the change to street tires.

Please submit this to the committee and let us know if it flies. Thanks

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Craig Naylor » Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:35 am

Don, I'm not sure how I would vote at this time on the over all concept, but one thing that would cause me to vote against it as written is the potential exclusion of some Mini or other extra small wheeled car out there, while addressing the 13" rimed cars.

May I suggest that the rule proposal be altered to include all rim sizes smaller than 14 be able to increase to 14's based upon the lack of tire availability argument. One would also need to confirm that a rim exists at what ever rim width those cars ran on that they can take advantage of the exception. Were the Mini's (and other potential cars) on 5" or 4.5" rims? I don't know. I don't think anything thinner than a 14x5.5 really exists, again I don't know. But not doing so would indicate that a competitive advantage might exist for some small wheeled cars, by not allowing them the same opportunity.

Another thought would be to limit the rim change to only 140+ tires, and not R-dot tires, again the same concerns exist so far as the rim with goes for some of those even smaller tires cars. One way to address this might be allowing a smaller rim to be increased to no more than a 14x5.5.

Just some food for thought.


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