Historic class discussion

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David Barrish
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Historic class discussion

Postby David Barrish » Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:47 pm

Historic class update: Supplementary Regulations.
This is a local, Cal Club run class that could attract interest for Regional Events.
This could increase the car counts and bring out cars from “Mark clubs”.
Changed as follows;
1. Stock class: change- Air cleaner (one for each carburetor) must be used.
I would grant that most cars that run the class have been modified to an extent that they do not comply with the SCCA stock regulations. No one that runs this class is headed to the Nationals with these cars.
But if you cannot close the hood or bonnet something has been done to the engine, manifolds and /or carburetors that should move this car to street prepared.
DONE- See post by Eric Clements. Thank you Eric.

2. Street Prepared: All cars that have been updated to programmable fuel injection.
The example I would offer is the following: 1972-1974 BMW 2002 tii; G-Stock running the factory mechanical fuel pump. They move to DSP with a mega-squirt.
3. Opening up the class to cars built up to 1983

4. Adding Historic 2: To include the following;
VW GTI all, Honda CRX, Toyota Corolla GTS, BMW E30 M3, C4 Corvette, MR2 Gen 1,
RX 7 Gen 1 and 2, 944, and Audi GT.
These changes provide existing cars that have run our events in the past a place to return and again compete. God forbid the producers of “consumables” come to the table with, say tires, that fit these cars maybe they will find an increase in sales.
This could be a win-win.

David Barrish
Last edited by David Barrish on Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Rules Proposal 2009-03

Postby Eric Clements » Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:18 pm

Stock class already has the aif filter allowance.

Tii's are in DSP, has there been something in fastrack about moving them to FSP?

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Re: Rules Proposal 2009-03

Postby Curt Luther » Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:24 pm

Also, this isn't a proposal as written. It's a discussion.

Mike, could you please change the title of this thread accordingly, please? Thanks.
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Re: Rules Proposal 2009-03

Postby Mike Simanyi » Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:45 pm

Curt Luther wrote:Also, this isn't a proposal as written. It's a discussion.

Mike, could you please change the title of this thread accordingly, please? Thanks.


I'm not quite sure how to do that. I think David can edit it pretty easily though. Perhaps something like "Historic class discussion" would do the trick.

Mike

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Aaron Goldsmith » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:28 am

my only input is that I don't think any historic class should have a constant date for entry. It should be a rolling window.. ie. Cars over 25 years old.

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Steve Ekstrand » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:32 am

If the SEB does get their age cutoff for Stock class then those cars should definitely be allowed in Historic... Its sort of the reason for Historic existing. Then all the old car owners abandoned by SCCA can find foreclosed on homes cheap in the the inland empire and run with us.
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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Doug Teulie » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:44 am

Aaron Goldsmith wrote:my only input is that I don't think any historic class should have a constant date for entry. It should be a rolling window.. ie. Cars over 25 years old.


All the 90's cars are still active in healthy classes (think 5 years ahead). The problem with a rolling date is at some point in the future all the cars in the Historic class will be BMW E36s. Four thousand pound cars are not that fun to drive and at some point Solo drivers will discover the classics. Pre 80s cars and Post 70s cars are a natural break point.
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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Mike Simanyi » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:55 am

Doug Teulie wrote:The problem with a rolling date is at some point in the future all the cars in the Historic class will be BMW E36s. Four thousand pound cars are not that fun to drive...

Yeah, it's amazing how capable those 4,000 pound cars are. ;)

I'd have said your greatest concern with the rolling date should be the Turbo AWD cars, but apparently they'll have torn themselves apart long before the 25 year horizon. (Hi Max!)

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Doug Teulie » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:26 am

Mike Simanyi wrote:
Doug Teulie wrote:The problem with a rolling date is at some point in the future all the cars in the Historic class will be BMW E36s. Four thousand pound cars are not that fun to drive...

Yeah, it's amazing how capable those 4,000 pound cars are. ;)

I'd have said your greatest concern with the rolling date should be the Turbo AWD cars, but apparently they'll have torn themselves apart long before the 25 year horizon. (Hi Max!)

Mike


The 4000 pound cars are the 2010 and up stock cars that SCCA wants us all to drive. What does SCCA stand for (not "sports car" club)?
As you say as soon as the better 90s (and STi) cars become 25 years old no one will want to build a stock 1972 2002 or a British sports car and run it with a rolling date rule.
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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Steve Ekstrand » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:29 am

You mean the ones with 20" wheels???
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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Doug Teulie » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:33 am

Steve Ekstrand wrote:You mean the ones with 20" wheels???


Yes!

:barf: 20" wheels
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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Jayson Woodruff » Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:18 am

I remember a rolling date coming up previously. There was a very specific reason why the HIST class picked '68, something about that's when sports cars started to change. Traditionally the committee has simply gone with what the HIST class wants.

Just to highlight some consequences, if the date moves much you'll introduce Z cars (which can still be very competitive in BSP), 914s, X1/9s (competitive in DSP) and a C4 corvette as worded. With a 25yr roll you'll start getting civics and CRXs soon, MR2s and in the not to distant future a possible CSP miata.



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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Aaron Goldsmith » Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:22 am

Doug Teulie wrote:
Aaron Goldsmith wrote:my only input is that I don't think any historic class should have a constant date for entry. It should be a rolling window.. ie. Cars over 25 years old.


All the 90's cars are still active in healthy classes (think 5 years ahead). The problem with a rolling date is at some point in the future all the cars in the Historic class will be BMW E36s. Four thousand pound cars are not that fun to drive and at some point Solo drivers will discover the classics. Pre 80s cars and Post 70s cars are a natural break point.


The 90's would be about 7 years ahead.. so in 2015 you'd be able to drive a 1990 car in HST. Seems to me stock is here to allow older cars and classics that would no longer be competative in their stock classes someplace to run.. I don't see why that reason would change just because the car is from 1990 in 2015. My supra wouldn't be legal till 2020. Evo's won't be a problem till almost 2030. At that point I'm thinking it's unlikely we'll really be worrying about where Morgan+4's and Sirracco's can play and more about where those classic japonese rally cars can run. John Fendel's car will be.. what.. 65 years old then?

Seems to be one person's meaning of classic really just relies on when they were born, so a rolling timeline would make a ton of sense.

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Aaron Goldsmith » Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:30 am

Jayson Woodruff wrote:I remember a rolling date coming up previously. There was a very specific reason why the HIST class picked '68, something about that's when sports cars started to change. Traditionally the committee has simply gone with what the HIST class wants.
Jay W


1968? Guess you're right, i just went and read the regs. That makes at least 5 cars at the last event, including the winner illegal in class. Guess there could have been some rules committee rulings, but they didn't make it into the updated supps.. and the rules committee doesn't seem particularly active.

Not that it matters to me, I don't run in HIST and if no one that does cares.. no reason to rock the boat.
Last edited by Aaron Goldsmith on Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Sebastian Rios » Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:31 am

So are we talking about changing the date of manufacture for eligibility, or about cars not conforming to stock rules running with a stock class index?

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Steve Ekstrand » Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:06 am

HST has always been described to me as 1968 or cars which have not substantially changed fromt he 1968 model year.

A 69 Mustang, Camaro, Barracuda, isn't really any different than a 68.
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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Jayson Woodruff » Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:21 am

Steve Ekstrand wrote:HST has always been described to be as 1968 or cars which have not substantially changed fromt he 1968 model year.



And if we kept that concept, and allowed a 25year roll, you'd see car's from the '90s amost right away.

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Chuck Fowler » Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:26 am

you could just go with a simple 10 year jump and hold the line again. that makes 'em good up to 78' to let in the challenger's, mustang 2 and a bunch of imports
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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Steve Ekstrand » Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:44 am

Other than a Morgan or TVR what car stayed basically unchanged from 1968 to 1990???
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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Steve Ekstrand » Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:45 am

Or is basically unchanged the same as what Enterprise means when they claim that a $13K Nissan Versa is similar and in the same price cat as a $21K Ford Fusion or Pontiac G6.

Hey they have 4 wheels?
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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Jayson Woodruff » Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:54 am

I meant to say if we keep the 'same as' allowance AND bumped it to a 25year roll, we'll see allowable '90's cars. For example a '84 C4 (built as early as '82) would be allowed in '09, which can be well argued the 'same as' a '96 C4.

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Steve Ekstrand wrote:Other than a Morgan or TVR what car stayed basically unchanged from 1968 to 1990???

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Steve Ekstrand » Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:58 am

Ahhh, gotcha....
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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Sebastian Rios » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:05 pm

Sebastian Rios wrote:So are we talking about changing the date of manufacture for eligibility, or about cars not conforming to stock rules running with a stock class index?


Hello....is this thing on? It looked to me that the original post was talking about cars running beyond stock allowances with a stock index, did I infer wrong?

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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Steve Ekstrand » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:17 pm

Yes, but...

4 items in original post. 3&4 deal with age of cars.
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Re: Historic class discussion

Postby Doug Teulie » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:01 pm

Steve Ekstrand wrote:Yes, but...

4 items in original post. 3&4 deal with age of cars.


I want the Hisroric driver's to have fun and enjoy driving the older cars. I would love to see good close racing. I agree that the class needs some updates. I am the new kid (my car is 32 years old like most of the rest of the active cars in the class) so I can offer my thoughts from a rookie's perspective.

Historic is one the most fun classes I have ever run. I like the toe to toe competition between the pairs like Steve and John Edwards. The 60's and 70's cars are very refreshing to see out racing and I would like to see more of them. The 60's Morgan and 60's Mustang have show great potential and continue to be very competitive against the majority of 70's cars that make up much of the class. I am sure if a 25 year and older on a rolling date was approved the class would no longer be fun. I think the BMW 320i is Historic however the BMW E30 325 is clearly part of a different generation of transportation history. The E36 is a very advanced car and in a short time the E36 would be eligible with a 25 year roll. The CRX would be eligible too. I am a big fan of the nicer 80's cars but I see a class divider when it comes to cars built in the mid 80's. My proposal would allow 80's cars to run in a new 80's class (Hist2 1983-1992 all) and let 60's and 70's cars run in Historic 1. Looking at class participation over the last 2 years I think pre 80's cars would be a healthy class.

It is nearly impossible to keep a 35 year old car in SCCA stock trim. It is not possible to get many of the parts and if you could find them many of the OEM parts are expensive and fail under racing conditions. It all comes down to performance advantages. If a piece of plastic trim is likely to be damaged by cones I think it should be removed from the car as long as it does not provide a significant performance advantage. The other underlining rule that I feel strongly about is appearance. A stock Historic car should look reasonably stock. Cutting the body or making changes that reduce the resale value, disfigure or present the car as modified should not allow the car to run with stock PAX. If the car is sitting on its lines but the springs have been replaced I don't see a problem. If the car is sitting 3 inches lower than the car's lines then the car is a candidate for Street Prepared PAX.
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