Rules Proposal 2009-03 - Seasons

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Mike Simanyi
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Re: Rules Proposal 2009-03 - Seasons

Post by Mike Simanyi »

I see all this discussion going on with lots of ideas flying around. Casey, I suggested something like this a couple years ago on my Club's forum. I'm not sure I agree now though.

We allow basically three drops for the season. Don't want to run Oct-Dec or Jan-Mar? You can use your drops.

Some people think that those should be reserved for something else. I have to ask, does diluted competition really appeal to people?

We have an extremely rare - and fortunate - situation. We have great weather year 'round. We might get a little rain, but the biggest problem we usually face is the funk of the recycling center or the heat. We're even learning to deal better with wind.

We have multiple venues - large ones - available for our events. Many other regions are cramped on small lots. Tiny lots even. And they can only run them for 8 or 9 months out of the year due to their weather.

Just because people are mathematically blocked from winning the season doesn't mean they don't need to improve their driving skills for the next season. I'd be out for every event even if we didn't *have* a season championship. The adrenaline rush, the shaking hands, the insane fun that we have legally - and heckling Max, Bill, Steve Abbott, Bill (did I mention Bill?) and everyone else... that's what has me coming out to our events.

Whether we do a full season of 12-14 events or a split season of 9-10 events and 3-4 events, at some point people will be mathematically blocked from winning the season championship. The split season just makes that happen in two series rather than one.

I'll ask again: does diluted competition really appeal to people?

Mike
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Re: Rules Proposal 2009-03 - Seasons

Post by Casey Brier »

I understand your thoughts. and I to partially agree.

(also please explain a diluted competition.... I don’t think I understand)

again, myself and my co driver will be there either way. pretty much every event. so I am kinda fighting this battle (if that’s what you want to call it) for who ever might want to make a change. though I must admit, I think I would like to mix it up a little. a year long points battle that is locked up by September makes for a boring points battle in October, November and December. like you said, it still makes for great race days, but as far as points go..... it can get a little stale. a mini series might spark new interest?.... kinda keep people coming????

I am also "fighting this battle" for CSCC. It's my theory that it will make CSCC more money. if no one agrees, then by all means, don’t do it. not all ideas are great, or should be implemented. :) but I think it should be explored. look at the number of people in the CASOC thread that agreed. Even the number of people so far that have agreed in this thread. almost everyone has wanted to make a change, its really just been a matter of what months to start and stop. not so much a matter of weather it should be done.

Is there a way to take a vote? Just to see if there is enough interest to warrant seriously considering it? (though that’s what I would think these two threads would be).
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Re: Rules Proposal 2009-03 - Seasons

Post by Bill Schenker »

Mike Simanyi wrote:... I have to ask, does diluted competition really appeal to people?
Diluted is a perception; is it diluted in diving/skating/gymnastics that they don't count all the judge's scores? No, you through out the high and the low. You increase competition 'cause you go that much further to preventing someone from pulling away. Do you really think that a 1st in F1 is only worth 20% more than 2nd (10pts for 1st, 8 for 2nd)? I don't (ask me how I know this :roll: ). A win is A LOT tougher than a 2nd. It keeps the race for the Championship closer.

Perception.

Oh, and Mange moi....

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Re: Rules Proposal 2009-03 - Seasons

Post by Mike Simanyi »

Casey,

When I wrote "diluted", one thought running through my head was kinda based on a Marketing take: "We can't beat them on their own turf, so all we have to do is define our own niche and proclaim ourselves here first." The sports equivalent is "We can't beat them at their own game, so let's change the game." The Little League analogy is "Trophies for everyone."

It's diluted in the sense that the Championship would be based on fewer events, less dedication, less consistent skill. To make the point, why don't we have 7 2-series events? Being a 2-series Champ sure wouldn't be as meaningful to me as being the Annual Champ, but a lot more people would be eligible to be a 2-series Champ throughout the year.

I honestly don't know what would happen to participation if we split the year, but I think it's possible we'd see a number of people decide to drop out for the holiday season, figuring there's no point since they won't attend all three or four events in the season, there aren't any drops; they may as well just go to that holiday party, go shopping, sleep in, etc.

I'm just putting some thoughts out for consideration. Thanks for driving the discussion forward with your ideas.

Mike

PS Bill, your Mower is on display in the Mother-of-all-OT-threads. :mrgreen:
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Re: Rules Proposal 2009-03 - Seasons

Post by Casey Brier »

Your welcome. :D like I said, I just wanted to see if there was interest…. And it seems there is. :P and thanks for your input.

I think a points battle that is won because I simply showed up to every event and 2nd place didn’t is not as rewarding either....

You say it would be diluted…. what do you think adding drops is doing.... diluting. you want a cut throat championship in full concentration. Fine; full year with no drops. but that’s not practical is it?

You say it will be less dedication…. Right now you get what, 3 or 4 drops? I am proposing we drop the months of November, December and January, but I am also proposing we lower the number of drops. During the main championship give em one… maybe two. This means you still have to be dedicated to win that jacket. It should make the championship just as gratifying. The main championship is still the big dog. The battle everyone fights for. But yes, the winter series might not be as gratifying, but its bragging rights, and keeps the sport fresh. (IMO). And with no drops it will take dedication as well. If you want, have one drop. (if people really feel its needed, but I don’t.)



Also, to add to the endless list of scenarios.

Lets say its September, I have the points battle locked up. I am not going to show up for the rest of the year… there is no point. See you guys next year.

Well in reality I will still show up. I still like to race even if I am not in contention for the point battle. If I go a month without racing I start to have withdrawals and my wife makes me sleep on the cutch while I go into convolutions and foam at the mouth. :cry:



Look at NHRA, they had to change the way they did their points because it was getting stale by August or September. :sleepy: (their season ends in November)


I don’t know, I can see the light on both sides.

Your damned if you do and damned if you don’t. :mrt:
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Re: Rules Proposal 2009-03 - Seasons

Post by Glenn Duensing »

Casey Brier wrote: Lets say its September, I have the points battle locked up. I am not going to show up for the rest of the year… there is no point. See you guys next year.
That's why the points were changed in the late 80's. Not really enough to make tight battles as people wanted to reward drivers that drove good. We now have the PAX class and most hot shoes drive there. Make the points like SD and you'll have even tigher races. It's been 20 years since I made the proposal to copy SD's system so maybe it's time again 8-) 4.5.6 Points shall be awarded to entrants in the following manner:
A. The fastest indexed class time from all eligible entrants shall be ranked.
B. The top indexed time shall be normalized to 100.00 points.
C. All slower times shall be determined by the following equation: Points for slower time = (fastest / slower time) x 100

Another choice: Points for slower time = (fastest / slower time) x 200
Top five in PAX:

old *400 new *100 new *200
EM 143 Jeff Kiesel 100 100 100
ASP 721 Ken Motonishi 99.208 99.804 99.609
STU 72 Tom Berry 97.874 99.474 98.947
CSP 14 Bill Schenker 96.029 99.015 98.03
ASP 183 Jason Uyeda 93.903 98.486 96.972
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Re: Rules Proposal 2009-03 - Seasons

Post by Bob Pl »

Glenn Duensing wrote: With nine events, you would only have one drop. One could always added another drop or add a couple more events.
Just for my own situation (running two regions for points), any schedule change that results in there being LESS drops means I would be LESS likely to run as many events. As it is now I try for all the champs & none of the practices. Pretty impossible to get enough races in to run for points with 1 drop.

Think about it.

I think the result would be a several (or quite a few) more people would decide to NOT try to run a full season and just pop in for x runs on occasion when the weather is nice or we run at El T.

:?:
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Re: Rules Proposal 2009-03 - Seasons

Post by Bob Pl »

Aaron Goldsmith wrote:
Robert Puertas wrote:9 or 10 races with 2 drops for the main series, and 3 or 4 races with no drops for the winter series.

Ending the series with the NOTLD is a great idea.
Except for all the people who hate NOTLD and don't want it to be a points event at all.
:thumbup:

Dumb event, accident waiting to happen.
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Re: Rules Proposal 2009-03 - Seasons

Post by Mike Simanyi »

Glenn, I think I'm confused. Are you suggesting that someone who runs out-of-class should be the basis for points?

By that I mean someone running PAX in BSP - at a different time and under different conditions - might be the basis for the BSP class scores?

Mike
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Re: Rules Proposal 2009-03 - Seasons

Post by Steve Ekstrand »

The points appear closer, but the competition isn't.

I got an idea. Add a million to everybody's points. Now look at how close the battles are.... Just a few fractions of a percent in every class...

I don't get it.....
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Re: Rules Proposal 2009-03 - Seasons

Post by Bob Pl »

OK, If you want to increase revenue to cscc & spark up interest which falls off at year end as 1st place positions become locked, here's what you do.

NASCAR already figured it out. Take the top x guys/gals in each class, reset points (I defer to a math geek to figure that out). Everyone else still runs as usual.

CSCC CHASE is on. Chances are not many results would change but I bet it would spark up the interest a bunch.

Winner of each class get's their choice of assault weapon (opps never mind - that's another thread)

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Re: Rules Proposal 2009-03 - Seasons

Post by Casey Brier »

yup, just like the NHRA thing I talked about. NASCAR too. :)

the points chase.


I hate to go off topic too much, but since the point of this is to mainly increase attendance in an effort to increase profit. is there any proof that raising the cost of entry fee has turned a lot of the people off? I hate to open a whole new can of worms, but does the increase of the fees match the decline in attendance?

I have several people that are interested (I even had 5 of them come to their first event at the last race), and the cost seems to turn them off a bit.

I know the whole cost vs. benefit thing has been covered, but I thought I would just ask. }:)
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Re: Rules Proposal 2009-03 - Seasons

Post by Aaron Goldsmith »

Casey Brier wrote: I hate to go off topic too much, but since the point of this is to mainly increase attendance in an effort to increase profit. is there any proof that raising the cost of entry fee has turned a lot of the people off? I hate to open a whole new can of worms, but does the increase of the fees match the decline in attendance?
Woh.. I'm pretty sure we are Not for Profit and last I heard we aren't hurting for money. We just want to keep attendance up since we're not quite at the record numbers of 5 years ago.
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Re: Rules Proposal 2009-03 - Seasons

Post by Casey Brier »

oh well then crap... I'm sorry. never mind then. :)

I knew we were trying to get attendance up, I figured that meant more money... my bad.

sorry. :) :oops:
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Re: Rules Proposal 2009-03 - Seasons

Post by Aaron Goldsmith »

Casey Brier wrote:oh well then crap... I'm sorry. never mind then. :)

I knew we were trying to get attendance up, I figured that meant more money... my bad.

sorry. :) :oops:
Hey more people is more fun, I think that's what everyone is going for. :thumbup:

I know that's we're all here for. :mrgreen:
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Re: Rules Proposal 2009-03 - Seasons

Post by Casey Brier »

I agree! I love it when there is a class full of people! :gpower:
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Re: Rules Proposal 2009-03 - Seasons

Post by Mike Simanyi »

The decline in attendance preceded the price increase.
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Re: Rules Proposal 2009-03 - Seasons

Post by Casey Brier »

I didnt know, thats why I asked rather then blame it on that. :D Thanks for setting me streight though. :oops:
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Re: Rules Proposal 2009-03 - Seasons

Post by Steve Ekstrand »

I would call attendence still an issue. You guys aren't out of the woods.
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Re: Rules Proposal 2009-03 - Seasons

Post by Karen Zaterman »

Will Kalman wrote:
Randy Chase wrote:
I think it has some merit, but I would suggest end "racing season" with Nationals.
I disagree. People will want to save their cars or strategize their tires, not risk compromising local competition or Nationals. Your idea makes both "series", if you will, happen simultaneously.

I think the local season should start right after Nationals and go to 3 months before Nationals the following year. Schools, practices, special events (like SCNAX Cup), and test-n-tunes can take up the time in-between, allowing newbies to get educated and nationals types to tune, if they want - or not.]
by Aaron Goldsmith on 28 Oct 2008 15:50

I kinda like this idea. Our problem in socal isn't the rain, it's heat. It also seems to be when we get a large influx of new people who would benefit for schools and such.
I agree, then as a club we are supporting the folks that go to Nationals, too... and the NOTLD haters will be happy. (I like red bull, too, BTW)
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Re: Rules Proposal 2009-03 - Seasons

Post by Kurt Rahn »

So we'd have three months without official competitions?!? I'd never survive! I agree with supporting nationals, but I'm of the opinion that there should be a competitive event every month. Whether that's over two "seasons" or one, I don't really care.
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