Post Car Classing Help Questions Here!

If you're new to autocross, new to the forum or need a hand with what class you should be in, ask for help here.

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Don Salyers
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Re: Post Car Classing Help Questions Here!

Post by Don Salyers »

Steve, IIRC the older Mini's, that I've seen, were using 13" rims. I have several sets of 13" 4 on 4 that should fit, I think... You can test fit them in April at the practice or champ event if my car is still running and not on the trailer heading home when you are there... :cry: :cry:

Don
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Post by Kurt Rahn »

Steve Alexander wrote:Max, sounds like a good enough reason to me. I remember you ran some respectable times Sunday and I enjoyed your announcing/humor.
Max is funny, but looks aren't everything. I think I need to drive your car too. I'll even offer to let you drive mine (a not-a-real-Mini-BMW-version).
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Re: Post Car Classing Help Questions Here!

Post by Steve Alexander »

Don, yes, in the UK and OZ, the fastest Minis are on 13s; I am old school and long ago decided to draw the line on mods at staying with the proper 10" wheels for the sake of appearance alone; a Mini just isn't a Mini on 13s, even though I have a Honda engine, at least it doesn't ruin the appearance for me. The other problem with the 13s on the VTEC Minis, is the offsets required for clearance; they wreck the controlability in full throttle acceleration; the guys who run them with big power, really have to fight just to keep it between the curb and oncoming traffic; forget staying in one lane. Even on the 10s, the lady from SD exclaimed, after her second run in my car, "this thing is a real handfull".
I have had "Crazy" Mike Kimball, the top gun in the west,(of mini drivers), Co-drving my car for the last two "Mini Meet West" events.,(Our anual western states and Canada convention and Autocrossapalooza). Usually over 100 minis, and Binis in attendance, with several Track-only and Honda powered Minis in attendance. He nailed FTD both times, with myself finishing only about the 85% ranking overall. I would eventually like to find someone local with Mike's abilities to co-drive the El Toro events if possible, just to see what the car is capable of compared to other marks, and to promote my conversion kit business. At the moment, just uncertain about the tire availability and cost.
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Don Salyers
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Re: Post Car Classing Help Questions Here!

Post by Don Salyers »

Steve, there is a yahoo group, SCCA-DMOD-EMOD, that most of the DM and EM drivers from around the country use to discuss their cars and such. There are a couple of high HP minis that show up at nationals and the guys frequent the group. If you want to compete in SCCA events not just local CSM or CST classes, that would be the place I would look for information.

I find it kinda ironic that you would keep 10" wheels for "looks" on a 200 HP Honda---- :D :roll:

Don
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Re: Post Car Classing Help Questions Here!

Post by Steve Alexander »

Thanks Don, I will check those out. Re the 10s, I think if the car did not become un manageable with the wider offsets required on the 13s, I might get a set to use just for events. It could be done I think, if I pushed the hubs out farther into the wheels, by making up extended upper and lower suspension arms, so that wheel offsets could be used, that place the drive force vector closer to the ball joint centerline, but it would be a lot of work just for an experiment. Maybe there is a suspension dynamics engineer in the club that I could discuss the problem with.
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Re: Post Car Classing Help Questions Here!

Post by Steve Alexander »

Don, I tried for 2 hours to get on that forum, so I could see posts.....most complicated process ever. I was not able to get past the title page, with the picture of a Jeep autocross car. I think I now have a Yahoo Email account, and probably managed to get on a Yahoo spam list too.
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Re: Post Car Classing Help Questions Here!

Post by Robert Puertas »

Steve Alexander wrote:Don, I tried for 2 hours to get on that forum, so I could see posts.....most complicated process ever. I was not able to get past the title page, with the picture of a Jeep autocross car. I think I now have a Yahoo Email account, and probably managed to get on a Yahoo spam list too.
Steve, it's a private forum, and you need to be approved for access.
Did you request access?
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Re: Post Car Classing Help Questions Here!

Post by Steve Alexander »

There was nothing that said "request access" but Yes, I think I signed up at least 3 times, It kept kicking back my info, or it would take me to some advertisements. Everything I did, I got error messages...had to keep changing things and typing info over and over. Finally gave up. I am a member on about 12 diffrent forums, but have never seen anything this complicated and difficult to register on.
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Re: Post Car Classing Help Questions Here!

Post by Ryan Young »

Hey everybody, I have a question about which run group I should be in. I've got a 2011 Subaru WRX on street tires with no mods & I've been running novice D Stock in the stock class run group for a little while. At the last event I noticed a few cars in the SK1/SK2 run group that had novice badges on them as well - would it be advisable for me to run with that group instead (and is that even an option)?
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Re: Post Car Classing Help Questions Here!

Post by Steve Towers »

[quote]by Ryan Young on 30 Mar 2012 17:18

Hey everybody, I have a question about which run group I should be in. I've got a 2011 Subaru WRX on street tires with no mods & I've been running novice D Stock in the stock class run group for a little while. At the last event I noticed a few cars in the SK1/SK2 run group that had novice badges on them as well - would it be advisable for me to run with that group instead (and is that even an option)?
Ryan Young

SK1 is the street tire class for your car, so yes, it's an advisable option. In stock you're up against race tires - not much chance of being competitive.
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Re: Post Car Classing Help Questions Here!

Post by Leonard Cachola »

Steve Towers wrote: SK1 is the street tire class for your car, so yes, it's an advisable option. In stock you're up against race tires - not much chance of being competitive.
Actually, it's SK2 for a 2011 WRX.

We now have street tire stock classes for Novice as well. Ryan, for your car, you would put DSK NOV - short for D-Stock, street tire stock, novice class. This goes for anyone else who wishes to run street tire stock (SK1 or SK2) in Novice.

The class breakdown is as follows:

SSK Nov = Super Stock, Street Tire, Novice (runs with SK1)
ASK Nov = A-Stock, Street Tire, Novice (runs with SK1)
BSK Nov = B-Stock, Street Tire, Novice (runs with SK1)
FSK Nov = F-Stock, Street Tire, Novice (runs with SK1)

CSK Nov = C-Stock, Street Tire, Novice (runs with SK2)
DSK Nov = D-Stock, Street Tire, Novice (runs with SK2)
ESK Nov = E-Stock, Street Tire, Novice (runs with SK2)
GSK Nov = G-Stock, Street Tire, Novice (runs with SK2)
HSK Nov = H-Stock, Street Tire, Novice (runs with SK2)

If you're wondering why you would do this over just running regular stock Novice, it's due to the street tire multiplier of .98, which is outlined in the section on the SK* classes in the CSCC Solo supplemental regulations on the Solo2.com site. Your final time comes out to .5ths faster for every 25 seconds of lap time. For example, if you ran a 50-second raw time in D-Stock SK Novice, your adjusted time is 49 seconds before the PAX/RTP index located at http://home.comcast.net/~paxrtp is applied to determine your final position in Novice class.

If you have been running on street tires in stock class for Novice competition this year, you can have your class changed to *SK in previous results by contacting Rick Brown via PM and letting him know.

This is the first time we've been able to offer this in Novice class, which is now in its third year.

If you are running on R-Comps, then you run in your car's respective National open class (SS, AS, BS, CS... etc.) and only your raw time will have the PAX/RTP index applied.
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Re: Post Car Classing Help Questions Here!

Post by Ryan Young »

Thanks Leonard, that was the answer I was looking for! Does this affect how I register on motorsportreg?
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Re: Post Car Classing Help Questions Here!

Post by KJ Christopher »

Ryan Young wrote:Thanks Leonard, that was the answer I was looking for! Does this affect how I register on motorsportreg?
Just the class you register in.
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Re: Post Car Classing Help Questions Here!

Post by Steve Alexander »

Wow, I read that about 5 times and I'm still confused; that is the most complicated clasification method I have ever seen for anything. Looks like he could put at least 5 different class designations on his car. Why isn't there just a single class to fit each car? The handicaping seems like the old drag strip bracket racing Idea, where the car capability is negated and only driver reaction times and consistency matters. I used to do that kind of racing, but got bored with it because there is no incentive to improve the car. A guy could spend a fortune on building a fast car and still get beat by a slow one. What's the point?
In our "Mark" Autocross events, we classify on a point system; the more mods and type of mods to the car, the more points(higher class) you must compete in... Pretty simple and works really well . For cross-mark classification, you could use weight to HP ratio, as well.....I know, who's going to verify the acurate weight and power of every car; but at least that way, it would encourage drivers to improve vehicle handeling, getting the most of their car within a given power to weight ratio, there by keeping classification simple and fair. Certainly, some kinds of cars would of course tend to be easier to make competitive than others, but that's as it should be. I know changing the classification rules to something simple just isn't going to happen, so I guess I will need something like a Comunity college night course, to begin to understand the current system. I guess that's why there needs to be this thread, so the experts can tell you where you belong......but funny how even the experts don't agree on what class you should run in; So, what are you left with, "expert's consensus"? So far, with no tread wear rating showing, I can't even tell how to classify any of my 5 different sets of street tires, let alone my car.
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Re: Post Car Classing Help Questions Here!

Post by Leonard Cachola »

Steve Alexander wrote:Wow, I read that about 5 times and I'm still confused; that is the most complicated clasification method I have ever seen for anything. Looks like he could put at least 5 different class designations on his car. Why isn't there just a single class to fit each car?
His car is in D-Stock (DS). If he wants to drive on street tires with the SK multiplier, then he runs D-Stock, Street tire. (DSK) That's two classes, not five as you seem to think. I put the others in there to make the post more relevant to anyone else who runs across that post.
Last edited by Leonard Cachola on Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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John Stimson
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Re: Post Car Classing Help Questions Here!

Post by John Stimson »

The handicapping is done in order to let cars from different classes run together so that there is enough competition to be interesting. Stock Street Tire (SK) is a local category, and if it were broken up into the usual nine Stock classes, most of them would only have 1-2 competitors, which isn't much fun. So several similar classes are combined, and then the PAX index is used to factor out the difference in performance levels between the classes.

Car setup still matters: PAX is based on the best setup achievable on the best car for each class. If you don't have your car set up well, PAX is not going to bail you out. Changing your setup does not alter your handicap; the only way to change your handicap is to buy a different car, and you;ll still have to figure out how to set up the new car. Keep in mind though, that there is not a lot of setup available in Stock classes anyway: damping rates, swaybar, and alignment are the primary tuning tools. The primary goal of Stock is to not have to spend a ton of money to make the car itself faster!

If you are more interested in improving the car, just look at the "overall times" summary and ignore the "PAX adjusted times" summary.
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Re: Post Car Classing Help Questions Here!

Post by Robert Puertas »

Steve Alexander wrote:Wow, I read that about 5 times and I'm still confused; that is the most complicated clasification method I have ever seen for anything. Looks like he could put at least 5 different class designations on his car. Why isn't there just a single class to fit each car? The handicaping seems like the old drag strip bracket racing Idea, where the car capability is negated and only driver reaction times and consistency matters. I used to do that kind of racing, but got bored with it because there is no incentive to improve the car. A guy could spend a fortune on building a fast car and still get beat by a slow one. What's the point?
In our "Mark" Autocross events, we classify on a point system; the more mods and type of mods to the car, the more points(higher class) you must compete in... Pretty simple and works really well . For cross-mark classification, you could use weight to HP ratio, as well.....I know, who's going to verify the acurate weight and power of every car; but at least that way, it would encourage drivers to improve vehicle handeling, getting the most of their car within a given power to weight ratio, there by keeping classification simple and fair. Certainly, some kinds of cars would of course tend to be easier to make competitive than others, but that's as it should be. I know changing the classification rules to something simple just isn't going to happen, so I guess I will need something like a Comunity college night course, to begin to understand the current system. I guess that's why there needs to be this thread, so the experts can tell you where you belong......but funny how even the experts don't agree on what class you should run in; So, what are you left with, "expert's consensus"? So far, with no tread wear rating showing, I can't even tell how to classify any of my 5 different sets of street tires, let alone my car.
Steve, your car is definitely a special case. However, no matter what tires you choose to run on (even full racing slicks), it is legal for DM.
It would also be legal for CSM on any DOT tire, including DOT Rs like Hoosiers or your Yokohama A032s.
If you could find a set of tires that where DOT legal and had a tread wear rating over 140, then it would be legal in CST.
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Re: Post Car Classing Help Questions Here!

Post by Steve Ekstrand »

True drag strip bracket racing YOU pick your time and run as close as possible without going under. There is NOTHING even remotely close to that here. PAX indexing is used so different classes can run together to increase the competition in a class. Its not used at National tours, but its used locally because we just don't have enough competitors to fill every class. Its a handicap factor or index. You still try to run as fast as possible and its not based on YOU, its based on the fastest national level participants in the best cars for that class performing at the top events the previous year(s). Most people locally would rather run a class like SK1 or SK2 than be alone or against one or two guys in say CStock. And our fastest National level guys got tired of basically having no competition local in their individual classes so they beat up on each other in our PAX class. Its not a perfect or entirely fair system, no way it could be and it breaks down some on extreme conditions or weather, but day in day out it works for what it is.

I think we're up to like 39 classes Nationally, but there is no I-stock. Many cars are NEVER going to be competitive and some cars modded without regard to our rulesets aren't going to be competitive. For people who really like to mod cars we have classes like DM and EM where the show is as much about the build for some people as the win. The Jeep last year that Del Long built had more fan interest than any car I can recall, even though we all knew Jeff Keisel's Sprite would demolish it at Nationals.

I'd throw slicks on the mini and run DM. That would be a blast. Just understand that its hard to beat purpose built cars that were planned and executed with great planning and care to exploit every angle of the rulebook and driven by top drivers like Jeff Cashmore and Mark Huffman.
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Re: Post Car Classing Help Questions Here!

Post by Steve Alexander »

Thanks. Although I don't understand the rules or the way you make decisions on car classes, I think I understand the reasoning a bit better. The SD guys put me in SUX; No one here has mentioned that class yet? There is still the problem of no Markings on 10" tires that show tread wear rating, so don't know how you would tell what it is. I will probably go with slicks if I can find any, just to make the car as fast as I can on 10s, which is consistant with the rest of the build anyway. Unfortunately, with the big engine(108 pounds heavier than stock), the already poor weight distribution of the Mini only gets worse, now at 67/33, and nothing much can be done about that, that I haven't already done. I can get another 150 pounds out of the car, but all from the rear, so no point in doing that. We have started on a new Mini project car that makes more sense; a mid engine, supercharged Hayabusa bike engined car to reduce weight and improve distribution and traction, with chopped roof and sectioned body to reduce drag. We will also have a good selection of tires available with the larger 13" wheel diameter planned.
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Re: Post Car Classing Help Questions Here!

Post by Don Salyers »

Steve Alexander wrote:Thanks. Although I don't understand the rules or the way you make decisions on car classes, I think I understand the reasoning a bit better. The SD guys put me in SUX; No one here has mentioned that class yet? There is still the problem of no Markings on 10" tires that show tread wear rating, so don't know how you would tell what it is. I will probably go with slicks if I can find any, just to make the car as fast as I can on 10s, which is consistant with the rest of the build anyway. Unfortunately, with the big engine(108 pounds heavier than stock), the already poor weight distribution of the Mini only gets worse, now at 67/33, and nothing much can be done about that, that I haven't already done. I can get another 150 pounds out of the car, but all from the rear, so no point in doing that. We have started on a new Mini project car that makes more sense; a mid engine, supercharged Hayabusa bike engined car to reduce weight and improve distribution and traction, with chopped roof and sectioned body to reduce drag. We will also have a good selection of tires available with the larger 13" wheel diameter planned.
That car will have some very stiff competition, but, KJ will enjoy it. I think it, mid-bike engine, takes you right to the head of all classes.

Don
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Re: Post Car Classing Help Questions Here!

Post by KJ Christopher »

Steve Alexander wrote: The SD guys put me in SUX; No one here has mentioned that class yet?
That is a local San Diego class, similar to, IIRC, our CSM.
Steve Alexander wrote:We have started on a new Mini project car that makes more sense; a mid engine, supercharged Hayabusa bike engined car to reduce weight and improve distribution and traction, with chopped roof and sectioned body to reduce drag. We will also have a good selection of tires available with the larger 13" wheel diameter planned.
Sounds fun!
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Re: Post Car Classing Help Questions Here!

Post by Leonard Cachola »

Steve Alexander wrote:Wow, I read that about 5 times and I'm still confused
I have re-written and expanded the sticky on this. Let me know what else is unclear so I can make changes.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=6391&p=86296#p86296
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Re: Post Car Classing Help Questions Here!

Post by Steve Alexander »

I don't know KJ or what Kind of car he has. The fastest car I saw at the event on the 18th was a white EVO (Berry family racing I believe). At Qualcom, I saw a green Frogeye that looked the bomb, I doubt we could compete with that one.
I hope to participate in the next El Toro event this month,(Saturday Practice anyway) I see that you are supposed to join a club....I am already in a car club, Mini Owners Of America Los Angeles,(MOALA); does that count? It is not a racing club;I am the only one of about 75 members that is interested in driving fast, even though there are about 5 Honda powered Minis, like mine, in the club. They're all just profilers.
I'm sure the average guy who has been in Solo for awhile can understand the classification reasonably well, My problem is it is all new to me, like a foreign language with initials for everything, and unfamiliar words (like the latest: Sticky). I am an Engineer, (an old one) I don't keep up with current technology very well; cell phones, computers, etc. never learned to type either;(hunt and peck with one finger) which brings up a problem I am having posting on this forum. It seems that if it takes longer than about 15 minutes to write a post, by the time I am finished and have proof read it, etc, then hit the submit button, the post will not process for as long as twenty minutes or more, in the mean time, the window just locks up. if I walk away while I am waiting, my computer shuts down after awhile. I have lost more than a few long and laborious posts in nthe process. This is the only forum I have been on that does that, so I am having to remember to copy my post, before submitting it, just in case I loose it, so I don't have to spend another half hour to an hour re writing it from memory. If it is a short post that takes me less than 10 minutes or so to write, It usually submits in a reasonable length of time.
Last edited by Steve Alexander on Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Post Car Classing Help Questions Here!

Post by Mike Simanyi »

Steve Alexander wrote:I see that you are supposed to join a club....I am already in a car club, Mini Owners Of America Los Angeles,(MOALA); does that count? It is not a racing club;I am the only one of about 75 members that is interested in driving fast, even though there are about 5 Honda powered Minis, like mine, in the club.
Our region is organized with a series of member clubs - CASOC, GRA, SCNAX, TCC, No$ and PSCC, as you can see here: http://www.solo2.com/clubs.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. The reason for that structure is to share the effort of hosting events. It takes considerable effort to organize events our size, and if that fell on a single small group of people, they would rapidly burn out.

So clubs share some of the load, and when they don't host the Executive Board (E-board) hosts, with members drawn from each club.

You can see that the club hierarchy is essential to our operation, so club membership is equally essential. If you sign up for a points card, the first year you join us you're allowed to not select a club. The intent is that you will show up and run with us, meet people, build friendships and make an educated decision about which club to join. If you decide earlier than the end of the year, feel free to request joining a specific club. I'm sure our membership chair, Kurt Rahn, will accommodate you.

I'm sure the average guy who has been in Solo for awhile can understand the classification reasonably well, My problem is it is all new to me, like a foreign language with initials for everything, and unfamiliar words (like the latest: Sticky).
That's the curse of being successful! The SCCA offers a number of categories and classes within each category, and on top of that they encourage local regions to create local classes to accommodate demand for cars that don't have a National class. Lately there's been a lot of demand for Street Touring (ST) classes, with interest in Stock falling off at the National level. Prepared and Modified both are seeing resurgence too, after having undergone some decreased participation. We're happy to answer your questions here to ease the burden for you.
I am an Engineer, (an old one) I don't keep up with current technology very well; cell phones, computers, etc. never learned to type either;(hunt and peck with one finger) which brings up a problem I am having posting on this forum. It seems that if it takes longer than about 15 minutes to write a post, by the time I am finished an have proof readit, etc, then hit the submit button, the post will not process for as long as twenty minutes or more, in the mean time, the window just locks up. if I walk away while I am waiting, my computer shuts down after awhile. I have lost more than a few long and laborious posts in nthe process. This is the only forum I have been on that does that, so I am having to remember to copy my post, before submitting it, just incase I loose it, so I don't have to spend another half hour to an hour re writing it from memory. If it is a short post that takes me less than 10 minutes or so to write, It usually submits in a reasonable length of time.
I've never heard of this problem before. I do know that if you start a response and other posts have been processed, there's an update on your screen to display those and ask if you want to update your response before it posts, but I can't imagine that locking up a computer. If you have anyone who can take a look at it for you, they may find a problem in your browser configuration or security settings. Unfortunately this is one of those problems that could easily be unique to your computer.

KJ's car is in A Modified, the fastest class that the SCCA Solo program offers. Typical cars are completely custom, weighing near the minimum weight (around 900 lbs, if I recall correctly) and are generally just a frame, some giant wings both front and rear, and a power plant at the rear of the car. They have so much aero vs weight that they seem to defy physics. Jeff Keisel's bugeye - the green one you mention - is in E Modified. He is a multi-time National Champion in it, and has done one heck of a job building the car from the already-capable state it was in when he bought it to the monster it is today.

Unfortunately the SCCA doesn't have classes set up for abandoning firewalls and moving engines around the chassis, so you'll be running that (way cool sounding concept) Mini in A Modified, to be perfectly legal. But you don't have to. You're welcome to run Time Only. Bring your friends, run T.O. in the same run group and you can at least have your own "personal" competition, even if we don't score points throughout the year for you.

Because basically this isn't about the class you run in or the points you accumulate. It's about having fun with a great group of people, challenging yourself in new ways to keep life exciting and making new friends. Oh - and the adrenaline rush might have a bit to do with it too. :thumbup:

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Re: Post Car Classing Help Questions Here!

Post by KJ Christopher »

Mike Simanyi wrote:
Steve Alexander wrote:I see that you are supposed to join a club....I am already in a car club, Mini Owners Of America Los Angeles,(MOALA); does that count? It is not a racing club;I am the only one of about 75 members that is interested in driving fast, even though there are about 5 Honda powered Minis, like mine, in the club.
Our region is organized with a series of member clubs - CASOC, GRA, SCNAX, TCC, No$ and PSCC, as you can see here: http://www.solo2.com/clubs.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. The reason for that structure is to share the effort of hosting events. It takes considerable effort to organize events our size, and if that fell on a single small group of people, they would rapidly burn out.

So clubs share some of the load, and when they don't host the Executive Board (E-board) hosts, with members drawn from each club.

You can see that the club hierarchy is essential to our operation, so club membership is equally essential. If you sign up for a points card, the first year you join us you're allowed to not select a club. The intent is that you will show up and run with us, meet people, build friendships and make an educated decision about which club to join. If you decide earlier than the end of the year, feel free to request joining a specific club. I'm sure our membership chair, Kurt Rahn, will accommodate you.
See also: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=6350" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
kj
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Former No$ Club Rep | Former SCCA Area 11 Director |Former CSCC Solo Chair
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