How to avoid getting your racecar impounded

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Bob Beamesderfer
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Re: How to avoid getting your racecar impounded

Post by Bob Beamesderfer »

Webster Jessup wrote:That suspicion does not extend to under the hood nor anywhere else closed.

If they have reason to believe that you are armed, then having you step out of the vehicle and frisking you is reasonable. Looking under your hood is not. Plain and simple.
Interior and trunk are fair game.

Under hood isn't because it's an unlikely and stupid place to hide a firearm, unless you know to an absolute certainty that your car will never catch fire or overheat in such a way as to cause a cartridge to discharge.

Still, the officer says that he observed what his trained eyes and ears tell him is an "illegal exhaust" and he'll claim he has probably cause on top of reasonable suspicion to suspect the car has more illegal modifications under the hood.

I don't agree with it at all because I think that most of it is a way to harass young people and because I don't believe most officers know much about cars and what's legal or not. Particularly young officers.
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Re: How to avoid getting your racecar impounded

Post by Steve Ekstrand »

Probable cause still in most cases doesn't allow you to walk in a house uninvited and search for evidence. You either need a warrant or you need exigent circumstances. LEO will often claim that since the vehicle is movable that exigent circumstances exist if they have probable cause so they can search.... That will never hold up at any appellate level, its a complete (intentional) misunderstanding of exigent circumstances. They will use it, impound your car, charge you, and if you get a lawyer you'll probably get it tossed as long as you made it very very clear that you didn't consent. And the judge believes you. But you won't get compensated and you can't sue the police for making the "mistake" (assuming you're white or Asian or even hispanic).

Its not just hiding a weapon. Its about access and control of the weapon or the Ninja fear. That's why they look in trunks but not under hoods. Though.... As they start going after modded diesel owners I'm waiting to hear that the ninja's could be under the truck hoods.

There is a stretch theory.... Think San Diego. The exigent circumstances exist because if the car leaves there is a great likelihood of imminent harm from street racing accidents. No joke.
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Bill Hogan
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Re: How to avoid getting your racecar impounded

Post by Bill Hogan »

hahahahaha... :D

This thread is STILL going?

Thanks for citing the CVC section on Peds and xwalks.... I'll use it to beat the ticket. As far as the BAR, who cares? I'll have them smog my car at the same time! That's why I have to restore it to "stock" anyway.

Since I have a new hobby, I'm gonna be selling the charger, ECU and related go fast components anyway.

PM me at wfhogao01@gmail.com if you have a Civic you want to turn into a firebreathing Vette and Subie eating monster....I'm also considering selling the whole car intact as modified, and those of you who know it, fear it on course, with it generally finishing in the top 15 or 20 cars in raw time on any given Sunday. Sure, I'll miss her, but I've got a sweet Supermoto now - even more bang for the buck, faster, beats traffic, I can ride over curbs, pets, and other road junk, and it's easier to park.

Occasional broken bones and road rash are only a minor inconvenience compared to THAT.

;)
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Sebastian Rios
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Re: How to avoid getting your racecar impounded

Post by Sebastian Rios »

Bill Hogan wrote: and those of you who know it, fear it on course, with it generally finishing in the top 15 or 20 cars in raw time on any given Sunday.
;)
Ah good old Bill, still stuck in his illusions of grandeur. :lol:
I guess the older you get the faster you were right? C'mon man, bring it out for old times' sake. I'll trade you runs in my civic.
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Re: How to avoid getting your racecar impounded

Post by Giovanni Jaramillo »

Sebastian Rios wrote:
Bill Hogan wrote: and those of you who know it, fear it on course, with it generally finishing in the top 15 or 20 cars in raw time on any given Sunday.
;)
Ah good old Bill, still stuck in his illusions of grandeur. :lol:
I guess the older you get the faster you were right? C'mon man, bring it out for old times' sake. I'll trade you runs in my civic.
Actually there was ONE day (Saturday practice) at Cal Speedway (held by SCNAX I believe a few years ago), where it was damp conditions, and drying out, but during that time Hogan was 1.3 seconds TTOD in the morning. I specifically remember it being 1.3. I remember NO ONE coming close. Not even Schenker. But as soon track dried out, grip-levels rose, everyone else's laptimes dropped and passed Bill. :)
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Re: How to avoid getting your racecar impounded

Post by Bill Hogan »

Yea....that was on street tires too. The car is unbeatable in the wet....the Qaufie hooks up, and throttle modulation is easy as pie with the SC.... It rotates very very nicely. The real joy of that car is it's handling at the limit. The SC is actually kinda stupid for the street - WAY too much power - you simply cant use it and stay alive or keep your license. Right now the bypass is zip tied open, and it's still silly fast, even down 80 or 90 HP.

I've tried explaining this to a certain Ferrari collecting knucklehead at my local coffee shop, but he doesn't get it. "Too much power?" he says "Impossible!"

Well, yea, you rich, old money A-hole.... for the STREET. The track is another whole ball game. It's like it's spring loaded on R-compounds, and that's SWEET! Very predictable, smooth power delivery. I'm sure that's why it's such a monster in the wet. Oh, and the fact that 60% of it's 2300lbs is over those LSD driven front wheels... :lol:

lol....It makes a great snow / ski car too. The looks on the faces of the SUV drivers is priceless as I fly up the mountain and pass them in town, and claw out of parking spots they get stuck in.

hahahaha.... But seriously, the Supermoto is more practical for LA. Sure, it's top speed is only about 100mph, but it uses 6 VERY short gears to get there. The first 4 are REALLY short, so it's perfect for squirting through holes in traffic. Lane splitting turns a 2 hour commute into a 1/2 hour one, just stay alert! It's like playing Tetris for keeps, with 4000 pound blocks piloted by distracted soccer moms. When it rains, it's like playing the same game on ice....

My autocross skills have served me well on the bike - don't look at the cones, look at the spaces BETWEEN the cones, and go THERE.

The penalty for hitting one is a lot more than two seconds though.... :thumbup:

I'm done with racing, at least for now. Too ego driven - to feel good, I have to make other people feel bad by beating them. It's not really my thing anymore....although I still get the urge now and again to show some tailgating butthole in a $$$$ sportscar how to properly apex a decreasing radius offramp.....
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Re: How to avoid getting your racecar impounded

Post by Webster Jessup »

If you don't consent, they have nothing. They can't just stop you and say open the trunk I want to look for firearms.

I don't think so! First and foremost, most firearms are not illegal. Second, the trunk is not anyplace that you have immediate access to. This still does not give probably cause because you can have a shotgun in the front seat (completely legal), which you would have access to. So therefore, having access to, does not give probably cause. The only thing they could do is check whether the firearm is loaded via PC 12031(e). If not, they must give it back. This brings up a point too. Don't ever mention that you have firearms in the vehicle. 12031(e) gives them the ability to do a loaded gun check, so that means in your trunk. Simply state that you have nothing illegal in the vehicle.

Peace officers can never claim that an exhaust is illegal because no amount of training can prove that it would be. First, an exhaust can be changed to whatever you want post cat legally. Second, only an exhaust that is over a certain decibel (dB) level under very specific circumstances is illegal, and this is done using a specific test. dB level is not something humans can estimate easily since it is logarithmic and would be very prone to error. They can claim speed estimation because it's a linear estimation.

Aftermarker wheels, lowering, exhaust, hoods, body kits, role cage, seats, steering wheel, driving a Honda, etc do not give officers probable cause, because they are all legal.

Don't let peace officers intimidate you into giving up your rights. It is very unfortunate that we live in a society where law enforcement feel the need or want to torment individuals or groups.



Bob Beamesderfer wrote:
Webster Jessup wrote:That suspicion does not extend to under the hood nor anywhere else closed.

If they have reason to believe that you are armed, then having you step out of the vehicle and frisking you is reasonable. Looking under your hood is not. Plain and simple.
Interior and trunk are fair game.

Under hood isn't because it's an unlikely and stupid place to hide a firearm, unless you know to an absolute certainty that your car will never catch fire or overheat in such a way as to cause a cartridge to discharge.

Still, the officer says that he observed what his trained eyes and ears tell him is an "illegal exhaust" and he'll claim he has probably cause on top of reasonable suspicion to suspect the car has more illegal modifications under the hood.

I don't agree with it at all because I think that most of it is a way to harass young people and because I don't believe most officers know much about cars and what's legal or not. Particularly young officers.
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Re: How to avoid getting your racecar impounded

Post by David Crozier »

Peace officers can never claim that an exhaust is illegal because no amount of training can prove that it would be.
I was pulled over by a motorcycle cop in Sherman Oaks a few years back and he specifically said that he pulled me over because my exhaust didn't look or sound stock. He told me it was illegal to do any modifications to your car. I then tried to show him the vehicle code which states otherwise and he threatened to impound my car. He wrote me up and I had to go to a state referee (I passed) and then to traffic court to show my paper work to the judge. What a waste of my time and taxpayer's money.
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Re: How to avoid getting your racecar impounded

Post by Webster Jessup »

Should have called for a supervisor, especially if you have the code to prove.

What VC were you cited for exactly?

David Crozier wrote:
Peace officers can never claim that an exhaust is illegal because no amount of training can prove that it would be.
I was pulled over by a motorcycle cop in Sherman Oaks a few years back and he specifically said that he pulled me over because my exhaust didn't look or sound stock. He told me it was illegal to do any modifications to your car. I then tried to show him the vehicle code which states otherwise and he threatened to impound my car. He wrote me up and I had to go to a state referee (I passed) and then to traffic court to show my paper work to the judge. What a waste of my time and taxpayer's money.
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Re: How to avoid getting your racecar impounded

Post by Bob Beamesderfer »

Webster Jessup wrote:If you don't consent, they have nothing. They can't just stop you and say open the trunk I want to look for firearms.

I don't think so! First and foremost, most firearms are not illegal. Second, the trunk is not anyplace that you have immediate access to. This still does not give probably cause because you can have a shotgun in the front seat (completely legal), which you would have access to. So therefore, having access to, does not give probably cause. The only thing they could do is check whether the firearm is loaded via PC 12031(e). If not, they must give it back. This brings up a point too. Don't ever mention that you have firearms in the vehicle. 12031(e) gives them the ability to do a loaded gun check, so that means in your trunk. Simply state that you have nothing illegal in the vehicle.

Peace officers can never claim that an exhaust is illegal because no amount of training can prove that it would be. First, an exhaust can be changed to whatever you want post cat legally. Second, only an exhaust that is over a certain decibel (dB) level under very specific circumstances is illegal, and this is done using a specific test. dB level is not something humans can estimate easily since it is logarithmic and would be very prone to error. They can claim speed estimation because it's a linear estimation.

Aftermarker wheels, lowering, exhaust, hoods, body kits, role cage, seats, steering wheel, driving a Honda, etc do not give officers probable cause, because they are all legal.

Don't let peace officers intimidate you into giving up your rights. It is very unfortunate that we live in a society where law enforcement feel the need or want to torment individuals or groups.
That's all technically true, but in the real world it plays out much differently, as Dave points out in his post. Most cops, about 95%, don't know what the actual exhaust law says. Even if you have a copy of the code, most will blow it off because you got it off the Internet. Asking them to actually show you the code in the book they carry might help, or they'll just get nastier.

BTW, the code says 95db as tested using the SAE standards; something like a distance of 3 feet and at a 30-degree angle, A-scale weighting. Motorcycles also have a noise limit, but you wouldn't know it by all the open-pipe Harleys on the road. :roll:
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Re: How to avoid getting your racecar impounded

Post by David Crozier »

don't remember the actual code, but the ticket said something like loud, obnoxious exhaust.......If I remember correctly it was written done as not correctable. Which is why I had to go to the referee etc.....
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Re: How to avoid getting your racecar impounded

Post by Bob Beamesderfer »

David Crozier wrote:don't remember the actual code, but the ticket said something like loud, obnoxious exhaust.......If I remember correctly it was written done as not correctable. Which is why I had to go to the referee etc.....
They always write it that way so you have to go to the referee. Isn't swell that traffic cops are allowed to make up laws as they see fit?
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Re: How to avoid getting your racecar impounded

Post by Webster Jessup »

Bob Beamesderfer wrote: That's all technically true, but in the real world it plays out much differently, as Dave points out in his post. Most cops, about 95%, don't know what the actual exhaust law says. Even if you have a copy of the code, most will blow it off because you got it off the Internet. Asking them to actually show you the code in the book they carry might help, or they'll just get nastier.

BTW, the code says 95db as tested using the SAE standards; something like a distance of 3 feet and at a 30-degree angle, A-scale weighting. Motorcycles also have a noise limit, but you wouldn't know it by all the open-pipe Harleys on the road. :roll:
The SAE testing is more complex than that, and the weighting scale is the #1 reason why humans can never estimate sound levels. It is so different from person to person and the sound itself.

The 95dB limit is not imposed on 2 wheeled vehicles. Motorcycles can have the loudest exhaust they wish. It's not illegal.

Who cares if they get "nasty". Stand up for your rights. If they put the wrong V.C. or make something up, go to court and fight it. Always write everything down immediately after a citation. You will be glad you did later on.
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Re: How to avoid getting your racecar impounded

Post by Steve Ekstrand »

Winning is easy.

Its AVOIDING "tell it to the judge" that's hard and that's the problem. Tickets are intentionally being written without a valid basis. Its pure on harassment with no recourse.
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Re: How to avoid getting your racecar impounded

Post by Webster Jessup »

Well I had a nice experience today with a peace officer.

Me and a co-worker were coming back from lunch. Po behind us. Turns right with me, then lights me up. I'm like, oh noes, pulled over for driving a Honda.

He comes up to my window. I ask what the problem is. He tells me my registration is expired. I say "No, it expires in October."

He goes back to my plate, checks the month sticker, comes back up to me. He apologizes for the inconvenience, and tells me I'm free to go. He was really sincere and apologetic too.

That was nice and professional. He made a mistake, owned up to it, and didn't try to make some sh#$ up and give me guff so he doesn't feel like an idiot.
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Re: How to avoid getting your racecar impounded

Post by Bob Beamesderfer »

Webster Jessup wrote: The SAE testing is more complex than that, and the weighting scale is the #1 reason why humans can never estimate sound levels. It is so different from person to person and the sound itself.

The 95dB limit is not imposed on 2 wheeled vehicles. Motorcycles can have the loudest exhaust they wish. It's not illegal.
If you're going to be picky about my purposefully vague description of the standard, here it is and it's not much more complex than what I described:
Under the SAE standard, a sound meter is placed 20 inches from the exhaust outlet at a 45-degree angle and the engine is revved to three quarters of maximum rated horsepower. The highest decibel reading is then recorded.
Motorcycles cannot "have the loudest exhaust they wish":
Motorcycle Limits

27202. For the purposes of Section 27200, the following noise limits shall apply to any motorcycle, other than a motor-driven cycle, manufactured:

(1) After 1969, and before 1973 ......................................................................................88 dba

(2) After 1972, and before 1975 ......................................................................................86 dba

(3) After 1974, and before 1986 ......................................................................................83 dba

(4) After 1985 ...........................................................................................................80 dba

Amended Ch. 356, Stats. 1982. Effective January 1, 1983.
My final thought on dealing with police comes from the late-activist and comedian Dick Gregory: "When dealing with the intelligence of the average police officer, you must be very careful."
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Re: How to avoid getting your racecar impounded

Post by Steve Ekstrand »

Isn't the motorcycle standards you listed for new sale?
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Re: How to avoid getting your racecar impounded

Post by Bob Beamesderfer »

Steve Ekstrand wrote:Isn't the motorcycle standards you listed for new sale?
It's not referenced that way:
Modification of Exhaust Systems

27151. (a) No person shall modify the exhaust system of a motor vehicle in a manner which will amplify or increase the noise emitted by the motor of the vehicle so that the vehicle is not in compliance with the provisions of Section 27150 or exceeds the noise limits established for the type of vehicle in Article 2.5 (commencing with Section 27200). No person shall operate a motor vehicle with an exhaust system so modified.

(b) For the purposes of exhaust systems installed on motor vehicles with a manufacturer's gross vehicle weight rating of less than 6,000 pounds, other than motorcycles, a sound level of 95 dbA or less, when tested in accordance with Society of Automotive Engineers Standard J1169 May 1998, complies with this section. Motor vehicle exhaust systems or parts thereof include, but are not limited to, nonoriginal exhaust equipment.
Amended Sec. 10, Ch. 92, Stats. 2001. Effective January 1, 2002.

Article 2 § § 27150-27158.5 Exhaust Systems http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/vc/tocd12c5a2.htm
Article 2.5 § § 27159-27207 Noise Limits http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/vc/tocd12c5a2_5.htm
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Re: How to avoid getting your racecar impounded

Post by Webster Jessup »

Bob Beamesderfer wrote: If you're going to be picky about my purposefully vague description of the standard, here it is and it's not much more complex than what I described:
Under the SAE standard, a sound meter is placed 20 inches from the exhaust outlet at a 45-degree angle and the engine is revved to three quarters of maximum rated horsepower. The highest decibel reading is then recorded.
LOL, that still isn't everything.

But anyway, it doesn't matter how the testing is done. My point was that humans can not effectively judge sound levels with any degree of accuracy.
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Re: How to avoid getting your racecar impounded

Post by Webster Jessup »

Bob Beamesderfer wrote:
Steve Ekstrand wrote:Isn't the motorcycle standards you listed for new sale?
It's not referenced that way:
Yes it is.
27202. For the purposes of Section 27200, the following noise limits shall apply to any motorcycle
So, on with section 27200, which only has to do with registering new motor vehicles.
27200. (a) The Department of Motor Vehicles shall not register on a dealer's report of sale a new motor vehicle, except an off-highway motor vehicle subject to identification as provided in Division 16.5 (commencing with Section 38000), which produces a maximum noise exceeding the applicable noise limit at a distance of 50 feet from the centerline of travel under test procedures established by the Department of the California Highway Patrol.

(b) The Department of Motor Vehicles may accept a dealer's certificate as proof of compliance with this article.

(c) Test procedures for compliance with this article shall be established by the Department of the California Highway Patrol, taking into consideration the test procedures of the Society of Automotive Engineers.

(d) No person shall sell or offer for sale a new motor vehicle, except an off-highway motor vehicle subject to identification as provided in Division 16.5 (commencing with Section 38000), which produces a maximum noise exceeding the applicable noise limit specified in this article, and for which noise emission standards or regulations have not been adopted by the Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency pursuant to the Noise Control Act of 1972 (P.L. 92-574).

(e) No person shall sell or offer for sale a new motor vehicle, except an off-highway motor vehicle subject to identification as provided in Division 16.5 (commencing with Section 38000), which produces noise that exceeds or in any way violates the noise emission standards or regulations adopted for such a motor vehicle by the Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency pursuant to the Noise Control Act of 1972 (P.L. 92-574).

(f) As used in this section, the term "register" is equivalent to the term "licensing" as used in Section 6(e)(2) of the Noise Control Act of 1972 (P.L. 92-574).
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Re: How to avoid getting your racecar impounded

Post by Bob Beamesderfer »

Webster Jessup wrote:
Bob Beamesderfer wrote: It's not referenced that way:
Yes it is.
You need to re-read this section:
27151. (a) No person shall modify the exhaust system of a motor vehicle in a manner which will amplify or increase the noise emitted by the motor of the vehicle so that the vehicle is not in compliance with the provisions of Section 27150 or exceeds the noise limits established for the type of vehicle in Article 2.5 (commencing with Section 27200). No person shall operate a motor vehicle with an exhaust system so modified.
You're confused. Section 27151 takes the limits in Article 2.5 and applies them as the maximum allowed for modification. You can't stop with just Section 27200; the subsequent Sections all apply under 27151.
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Re: How to avoid getting your racecar impounded

Post by Bob Beamesderfer »

Webster Jessup wrote:
Bob Beamesderfer wrote: If you're going to be picky about my purposefully vague description of the standard, here it is and it's not much more complex than what I described:
Under the SAE standard, a sound meter is placed 20 inches from the exhaust outlet at a 45-degree angle and the engine is revved to three quarters of maximum rated horsepower. The highest decibel reading is then recorded.
LOL, that still isn't everything.

But anyway, it doesn't matter how the testing is done. My point was that humans can not effectively judge sound levels with any degree of accuracy.
LOL right back; that's SEMA's description.

As for human ability to judge sound pressure levels, that was never an argument. A guess that's off by 3db is off by quite a bit. I worked at a recording studio in Chicago, so I understand db readings.
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Re: How to avoid getting your racecar impounded

Post by Kevin Price »

MMA Cage Match between Webster and Bob to resolve this. Winner gets a dead horse.
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Re: How to avoid getting your racecar impounded

Post by Bob Beamesderfer »

Kevin Price wrote:MMA Cage Match between Webster and Bob to resolve this. Winner gets a dead horse.
I call dibs on Mr. Ed.
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Re: How to avoid getting your racecar impounded

Post by Webster Jessup »

Bob Beamesderfer wrote: You're confused. Section 27151 takes the limits in Article 2.5 and applies them as the maximum allowed for modification. You can't stop with just Section 27200; the subsequent Sections all apply under 27151.
That's not what it says. You are reading more into it than is there. It's saying that you can't modify an exhaust so that it doesn't comply with 27200, which means dealer sales only.

It could be argued what you are saying, but because it would then be seen as ambiguous, rule of lenity says that win goes to the defendant.
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