SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

General discussions about Solo

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Re: SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

Post by Aaron Goldsmith » Wed May 11, 2011 9:23 am

Kurt Ra wrote: I suppose that could be true, but I wrote the letter about a year ago. I spent (wasted?) a lot of time and effort putting it together. I don't feel like ti was even considered. I'd like for my frustration to be misplaced and see my case # addressed in an upcoming FasTrack. Until I do, I'm assuming it's lining a birdcage someplace.
As I understand it, it's attached to the issue it addressed in the forum for the Stock Action Committee.

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Re: SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

Post by Jeff Stuart » Wed May 11, 2011 9:36 am

Kurt Ra wrote: I suppose that could be true, but I wrote the letter about a year ago. I spent (wasted?) a lot of time and effort putting it together. I don't feel like ti was even considered. I'd like for my frustration to be misplaced and see my case # addressed in an upcoming FasTrack. Until I do, I'm assuming it's lining a birdcage someplace.
I was just going to ask about this.... I sent my email over a year ago, when Kurt sent his.

I just went through all the Fastracks from then until now and my reference number hasn't been addressed. Does that mean its still being reviewed?

The only things relevant in any of them were the one Christine quoted (March 2011), and this one (April 2010):
Street tire classes (ref. 10-058) Comment: Classes for Stock cars on street tires may be offered at the Regional level. When
a Region hosts a Divisional or National Tour event, it is free to include any Region-only classes which it normally offers,
including street tire classes. The SAC believes that this best addresses the demand for street tire classes at this time
but neither are my reference number.

EDIT: My # is 10-215 if anyone sees it... I looked for a good 15 minutes and didn't see it anywhere. Tried to make Google look for me, but couldn't get that to work.

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Re: SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

Post by Jason Isley BS RX8 » Wed May 11, 2011 9:48 am

Jeff Stuart wrote:
Kurt Ra wrote: I suppose that could be true, but I wrote the letter about a year ago. I spent (wasted?) a lot of time and effort putting it together. I don't feel like ti was even considered. I'd like for my frustration to be misplaced and see my case # addressed in an upcoming FasTrack. Until I do, I'm assuming it's lining a birdcage someplace.
I was just going to ask about this.... I sent my email over a year ago, when Kurt sent his.

I just went through all the Fastracks from then until now and my reference number hasn't been addressed. Does that mean its still being reviewed?

The only things relevant in any of them were the one Christine quoted (March 2011), and this one (April 2010):
Street tire classes (ref. 10-058) Comment: Classes for Stock cars on street tires may be offered at the Regional level. When
a Region hosts a Divisional or National Tour event, it is free to include any Region-only classes which it normally offers,
including street tire classes. The SAC believes that this best addresses the demand for street tire classes at this time
but neither are my reference number.

EDIT: My # is 10-215 if anyone sees it... I looked for a good 15 minutes and didn't see it anywhere. Tried to make Google look for me, but couldn't get that to work.
The new system allows you to track your letter: http://www.sebscca.com/track.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But your number comes up invalid. Was that submitted prior to the web based system?

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Re: SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

Post by Jeff Stuart » Wed May 11, 2011 10:00 am

Jason Isley BS RX8 wrote: But your number comes up invalid. Was that submitted prior to the web based system?
Pretty sure it was. Around August/September of last year the reference numbers in the Fastracks transition to 4 digit numbers rather than YY-### like mine. I'm guessing the 4 digit numbers are the only ones that can be tracked online.

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Re: SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

Post by KJ Christopher » Wed May 11, 2011 10:34 am

It should be noted that at many national tours (and I think our 2010 pro solo?) a street tire class was added to accommodate the seemingly hundreds of people asking for them across the country on various message boards. These classes have been abismal failures, which isn't helping the cause. These were perfect (well, not perfect, but good) opportunities to pull together people and show the change is wanted.

This is disappointing to me as I wouldn't mind seeing a 140 rule (with required reclassing) in stock class.
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Re: SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

Post by Jeff Stuart » Wed May 11, 2011 10:45 am

KJ Christopher wrote:It should be noted that at many national tours (and I think our 2010 pro solo?) a street tire class was added to accommodate the seemingly hundreds of people asking for them across the country on various message boards. These classes have been abismal failures, which isn't helping the cause. These were perfect (well, not perfect, but good) opportunities to pull together people and show the change is wanted.

This is disappointing to me as I wouldn't mind seeing a 140 rule (with required reclassing) in stock class.
At the 2010 San Diego National Tour there were 23 SK drivers, and 15 at the 2010 El Toro ProSolo.

Numbers were horrible this year, mostly because a lot of the people that ran SK last year managed to get their hands on Dot-Rs.

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Re: SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

Post by Jeff Stuart » Wed May 11, 2011 10:49 am

Jeff Stuart wrote:
Jason Isley BS RX8 wrote: But your number comes up invalid. Was that submitted prior to the web based system?
Pretty sure it was. Around August/September of last year the reference numbers in the Fastracks transition to 4 digit numbers rather than YY-### like mine. I'm guessing the 4 digit numbers are the only ones that can be tracked online.
Just heard back from Brian Harmer about my reference number:

When they were using the old reference number system, they weren't putting every relevant reference number in Fastrack like they are with the new system.

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Re: SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

Post by Giovanni Jaramillo » Wed May 11, 2011 10:53 am

Morgan Trotter wrote:Noted about the online SEB submission system. I forgot. sorry, its been a few years since I sent a letter.
FYI - To write letters to the SEB, go to our main site and it's linked on the bottom right-hand side navigation bar.

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Re: SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

Post by KJ Christopher » Wed May 11, 2011 1:01 pm

Jeff Stuart wrote:
Numbers were horrible this year, mostly because a lot of the people that ran SK last year managed to get their hands on Dot-Rs.
that is an interesting datapoint.
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Re: SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

Post by Kurt Rahn » Wed May 11, 2011 1:08 pm

KJ Christopher wrote:
Jeff Stuart wrote:
Numbers were horrible this year, mostly because a lot of the people that ran SK last year managed to get their hands on Dot-Rs.
that is an interesting datapoint.
In particular, at the Pro, the Kumho deal my decision easy.
Last edited by Kurt Rahn on Wed May 11, 2011 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

Post by Jason Isley BS RX8 » Wed May 11, 2011 1:08 pm

KJ Christopher wrote:
Jeff Stuart wrote:
Numbers were horrible this year, mostly because a lot of the people that ran SK last year managed to get their hands on Dot-Rs.
that is an interesting datapoint.
Wait a minute there KJ... Don't start inferring with that detailed reply that when given the choice people will run R's over street tires. :lol:
Last edited by Jason Isley BS RX8 on Wed May 11, 2011 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

Post by Jeff Stuart » Wed May 11, 2011 1:11 pm

KJ Christopher wrote:
Jeff Stuart wrote:
Numbers were horrible this year, mostly because a lot of the people that ran SK last year managed to get their hands on Dot-Rs.
that is an interesting datapoint.
Yeah, I was surprised to see how low the numbers were at the events this year, given the numbers from last year.

I had been planning to running SK for both again this year, but when the opportunity arose to use some affordable Dot-Rs without having to buy a whole set, I jumped on it. Personally, I did it because I wanted to experience a national level event competing in a nationally recognized class. Also, there was the possibility of a free set of tires too, which was a big factor. Last year at the Tour and ProSolo, I felt somewhat left out of the experience competing in SK.

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Re: SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

Post by Mark Duerst » Wed May 11, 2011 1:54 pm

Jeff Stuart wrote:
At the 2010 San Diego National Tour there were 23 SK drivers, and 15 at the 2010 El Toro ProSolo.

Numbers were horrible this year, mostly because a lot of the people that ran SK last year managed to get their hands on Dot-Rs.
Well I looked up the numbers
23 in SK1/SK2 San Diego tour 2010
Out of these 23 only 5 ran the tour in 2011. 1 in CS, 1 in GS, 2 in STX and 1 in SSM.

For the 4 that ran SK1/SK2 in the 2011tour, there was only 1 repeat driver.

Maybe a better question is why didn't those 18 run the tour and/or why are they not running anymore?
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Re: SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

Post by Steve Towers » Wed May 11, 2011 4:45 pm

Speaking as a stock class driver and only on the tire issue (earlier in this thread I expressed my thoughts re mods). In my case it's about a $600 difference in the cost of set of 710's/A6's vs the flavor of the day for street tires. In addition to the delta in cost per set is the difference in the number of effective runs. My experience running in SK1 vs SS/AS is I get at least double the effective runs on street tires. So, 4-5 sets of slicks per year ($5200-$7000) vs 2-3 set of street tires ($1600-$2400) is a huge difference. Not to mention no changeout hassle, no extra wheels, and no tire storage issues.

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Re: SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

Post by Michael Heinitz » Wed May 11, 2011 6:42 pm

I wonder if the SCCA has ever considered a points based classing system.

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Re: SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

Post by Craig Naylor » Wed May 11, 2011 8:34 pm

Comparing SK (aka Index 1 & 2) to entries in Stock at the Tour and Pro is comparing apples to oranges. The Stock numbers include people traveling in from other parts of the nation. No one is going to (nor did they) travel in to compete in a local rules class, even if the difference is just the tires. So the actual (total) entries in the Stock class vs. the Index class is immaterial.

For a true comparison you need to look at the locals competing in stock vs. the Index classes.

All stock classes combined had 23 SD & CSCC entries at the SD Tour. Index had 4.
(Breakdown: SS-4, AS-2, BS-3, CS-5, DS-1, ES-1, FS-1, GS-2, HS-4, Ind1 -2, Ind2 -2)
All stock classes combined had 24 SD & CSCC entries at the ET Pro. Index had ?? (Don't know how to break them out of the results. Can someone help with this, I'll plug it back in)
(Breakdown: SS-5, AS-3, BS-5, CS-4, DS-2, ES-0, FS-1, GS-0, HS-4, Ind1 -?, Ind2 - ?))


Obviously theirs a difference. I did notice though about 1/4 of the "stock" entrants typically run SK locally. Most picked up rides in someone else's car, a few bought or arrived in some manor with R's on their own car. I think the comparison, says more about wanting to have new higher level competitors at these events and the possibility of walking away with some contingency money, than it says about lack of interest in ST 140's being preferred in Stock class.

But as Mark pointed out, this year Index class numbers fell vs. last year. I don't have Stock numbers from last year (Can't find them in SCCA's web site). I'm willing to bet the Stock numbers last year stayed relatively level, which would mean Index vs. Stock numbers were just about even, or possibly higher.

Which brings us back to why did those people not return and drive Index. I'm willing to bet it has more to do with a lack of benefiting from the bonuses of National class status (contingencies, Super Challenge access etc.), vs.cost of entry, than it does anything else.

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Re: SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

Post by Michael Oest » Thu May 12, 2011 12:34 am

I think people went out, bought some R-comps (or found a ride) and ran Stock classes (instead of SK) because thats the only way to see how you, as a driver, stack up against the competition nationally. I personally love SK class, its not perfect because its PAX, but its a lot of fun and a great way to race cheap. I wanted to see how I stacked up against Nationally ranked drivers, so I went and bought R-comps. Now I know.

Side note: I wish Kuhmo made my size in R-comps, that was an amazing contingency promotion. I applaud them. :thumbup:

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Re: SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

Post by Mako Koiwai » Thu May 12, 2011 5:17 am

I wonder if the SCCA has ever considered a points based classing system.
It's the Points Based classing system that has made NASA so successful. If I was a SCCA Club Racing Official I would be very worried how full the NASA paddocks are while SCCA track events have sadly thinned participation. The combined run groups with only a few participants in each class are what our Stock Classes have become. :(

The NASA program for newbies is 2nd to none and makes our SCCA PDX/Time Trials program a bit scary, ie. arrive and drive with very little instruction, supervision and feedback/debriefs.

http://www.calclub.com/time-trials.php SCCA Instructors AVAILABLE, while with NASA you MUST have an Instructor riding with you at ALL TIMES in the first two levels. You aren't allowed to move up to the next group without being approved and signed off. EVERYONE is under observation. This means that at the NASA events the certified racing drivers have to help out instructing. Makes for a busy day! But also gives the drivers that are between rides a reason to come out. They get to drive students cars if requested.

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Re: SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

Post by Jason Isley BS RX8 » Thu May 12, 2011 9:18 am

Mako to wrote:
I wonder if the SCCA has ever considered a points based classing system.
It's the Points Based classing system that has made NASA so successful. If I was a SCCA Club Racing Official I would be very worried how full the NASA paddocks are while SCCA track events have sadly thinned participation. The combined run groups with only a few participants in each class are what our Stock Classes have become. :(

The NASA program for newbies is 2nd to none and makes our SCCA PDX/Time Trials program a bit scary, ie. arrive and drive with very little instruction, supervision and feedback/debriefs.

http://www.calclub.com/time-trials.php SCCA Instructors AVAILABLE, while with NASA you MUST have an Instructor riding with you at ALL TIMES in the first two levels. You aren't allowed to move up to the next group without being approved and signed off. EVERYONE is under observation. This means that at the NASA events the certified racing drivers have to help out instructing. Makes for a busy day! But also gives the drivers that are between rides a reason to come out. They get to drive students cars if requested.
Would you be so kind as to direct me to the nearest NASA franchise that is hosting regular autocross events? Or are you comparing apples to oranges again? NASA offered something no one else did for a long time, a competitive time trail class with none of those pesky safety requirements needed in wheel to wheel racing. Now it seems as though every group that hosts track days (Redline, SV, PCA, POC, ect) has added a time trial class - even SCCA.

As far as a healthy road racing program, I would disagree with you on that as well. Look at the biggest event of the year for the other group and you will see many classes with only 5 cars, at the Championship event, that is not what I consider healthy - one class was contested by a single car. The biggest classes for that group are Spec Miata and Factory Five, which have rules not points. If you take the TT entries out of the equation they have about half the entries we get.

No doubt they kick @ss on TT, but from what I see they are not beating any groups in the other disciplines.

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Re: SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

Post by Mako Koiwai » Thu May 12, 2011 9:48 am

I agree that their Nationals are nothing ... yet, and I was going to add that they are becoming more rules driven in their most popular classes, but I was responding to the post above mine about points based (AX) classes, which I believe NASA has done a great job implementing. I was just pointing to a successful use of a points system, as an alternative to a PAX system. Nothing to do with AX vs Track.

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Re: SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

Post by Jason Isley BS RX8 » Thu May 12, 2011 9:52 am

Mako to wrote:I agree that their Nationals are nothing ... yet, and I was going to add that they are becoming more rules driven in their most popular classes, but I was responding to the post above mine about points based (AX) classes, which I believe NASA has done a great job implementing. I was just pointing to a successful use of a points system, as an alternative to a PAX system. Nothing to do with AX vs Track.
Where is the successful example of a points based autocross system? I don't think you can find one. Some of the marque club use points (PCA, NCCC), and they have 30+ classes for a single make of car. :shock:

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Re: SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

Post by Mako Koiwai » Thu May 12, 2011 10:06 am

I don't know of one, but I was just pointing out ... in response to Heinitz ... that NASA has been successful using theirs for track use, and no doubt, unfortunately the SCCA has been losing potential Club Racers because of that. Just saying that the SCCA might need to look at other ways to attract new members in both AX/Stock Classes and Track.

(I've been so busy with work that I'll do anyones track day that happens to fall on a free weekend! The Miata Challenge that we had HOPED to do, is hosted by Speed Venture, not NASA. It too uses a Mod Point System to put Miata's into three different classes.)

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Re: SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

Post by Doug Teulie » Mon May 16, 2011 12:19 am

This is a complicated problem. SCCA has made it more frustrating for younger drivers with stock cars to get in the sport or stick with it. Tires are one issue but car classing changes frustrates people when they get pushed out of the game. Your SK PAX is greatly altered with class changes as well as PAX adjustments each year. SK drivers get hit all the time. Many "would be new racers" are forced to purchase a NEW car to stay in the "stock class" or "SK" game instead of running dad's old hand me down when SCCA makes class changes. Then a soft PAX builds them up but next year when the PAX is adjusted it is hopeless. I see drivers at SPEED VENTURES Auto-x events and they tell me that they don't like SCCA because they have no chance with the car they have and it is not that fun doing just 3 runs. Many younger drivers think the car wins race not the skill of the driver. Then they want to make changes to the car that SCCA will not approve of. The "sport" is lost for them because they feel they have to purchase the one MX-5 Miata that wins or get killed and they can't get any seat time. Most people that are 30'ish can't just go out and get an extra car or purchase the class darling every time SCCA shifts the classes (stock or SK classes). The rescission hit the sport hard but SCCA made lots of class changes as the rescission hit forcing many more drivers out of the "sport."

One issue that many people don't understand is, "How do I get my $1000+ R tires on my 18" stock wheels to the track in my big car with its small interior?" "I need a Trailer too?" St is looking better all the time. How much does it cost to run the Tour and Pro in Stock? When you factor in the dry tires and wet tires, hotel, gas and entry fee you may find that your yearly cost to run Solo just doubled.
Last edited by Doug Teulie on Mon May 16, 2011 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

Post by Jason Isley BS RX8 » Mon May 16, 2011 9:17 am

Doug Teulie wrote:This is a complicated problem. SCCA has made it more frustrating for younger drivers with stock cars to get in the sport or stick with it. Tires are one issue but car classing changes frustrates people when they get pushed out of the game. Your SK PAX is greatly altered with class changes as well as PAX adjustments each year. SK drivers get hit all the time. Many "would be new racers" are forced to purchase a NEW car to stay in the "stock class" or "SK" game instead of running dad's old hand me down when SCCA makes class changes. Then a soft PAX builds them up but next year when the PAX is adjusted it is hopeless. I see drivers at SPEED VENTURES Auto-x events and they tell me that they don't like SCCA because they have no chance with the car they have and it is not that fun doing just 3 runs. Many younger drivers think the car wins race not the skill of the driver. Then they want to make changes to the car that SCCA will not approve of. The "sport" is lost for them because they feel they have to purchase the one MX-5 Miata that wins or get killed and they can't get any seat time. Most people that are 30'ish can't just go out and get an extra car or purchase the class darling every time SCCA shifts the classes (stock or SK classes). The rescission hit the sport hard but SCCA made lots of class changes as the rescission hit forcing many drivers out of the "sport."

One issue that many people don't understand is, "How do I get my $1000+ tires on my 18" stock wheels to the track in my big car with its small interior." St is looking better all the time.
Your post is a bit confusing... First, SCCA did not create PAX, and has no influence on it, you need to get that part strait. One person makes those changes based on his whims - or I guess "data" he collects. The club is not putting anyone out with the PAX changes. If you chose to compete in a class that utilizes a WAG to determine your placement, that is on you, SCCA classing is like cars with equal mods in heads up competition.

Second, a car classification change is a horribly slow process for anything but a brand new car. Typically for anything outside of its original 12-month classification you are looking at a process that takes two or more seasons. No one (that bothers to read Fastrack) is caught by surprise when a car changes classes.

Third, you said these kids get the shaft because of the classification of their stock cars... But then you go on to say they want to make changes to their cars. So which is it, are they stock class cars, or people that have not fully modded to the ST/SP level and thus are not competitive? Is there even a single car at a SV event that fits in stock class? From the couple of events I did there I think I had the only "stock" car.
Last edited by Jason Isley BS RX8 on Mon May 16, 2011 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

Post by Doug Teulie » Mon May 16, 2011 9:30 am

Jason, I am telling you how many younger drivers see SCCA solo.
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