SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

[Kurt Rahn]

Okay, I can buy (or at least see the logic in) all the arguments against street tires in stock except the economic one. As I showed in a previous thread, in my case, R-comps are significantly more expensive than competitive street tires. Driving in STX the last year, I've driven on basically everything except the Toyo. The tire I preferred was the Hankook. I can get a set of Hankooks from Tire Rack in my size (225-45-17) for $116 each, which works out to $464 a set. Assuming I shaved them, add $25 per tire, bringing the total to $564 a set. My second favorite were the Kumho XSs, which are $140 per, for a total of $560, or $660 shaved.

A set of the same size Kumho 710s cost $216 each, or $864. And since the Hoosier seems to be the consensus tire to have, let's make sure we compare them too: $257 each, or $1028 a set.

Will someone please explain to me in what parallel universe $1028 costs me less than $564? Maybe as the tires get larger, the costs get more comparable; I'm not inclined to spend the rest of the day doing comparisons of other sizes, but for my application (which frankly is the only one I care about), the economic argument is pretty ludicrous.

[Max Hayter]

Yes, but Kurt, which one will last longer... oh wait!

By the way, no need to shave the Hancooks.

[KJ Christopher]

Okay, I can buy (or at least see the logic in) all the arguments against street tires in stock except the economic one. As I showed in a previous thread, in my case, R-comps are significantly more expensive than competitive street tires. Driving in STX the last year, I've driven on basically everything except the Toyo. The tire I preferred was the Hankook. I can get a set of Hankooks from Tire Rack in my size (225-45-17) for $116 each, which works out to $464 a set. Assuming I shaved them, add $25 per tire, bringing the total to $564 a set. My second favorite were the Kumho XSs, which are $140 per, for a total of $560, or $660 shaved.

A set of the same size Kumho 710s cost $216 each, or $864. And since the Hoosier seems to be the consensus tire to have, let's make sure we compare them too: $257 each, or $1028 a set.

Will someone please explain to me in what parallel universe $1028 costs me less than $564? Maybe as the tires get larger, the costs get more comparable; I'm not inclined to spend the rest of the day doing comparisons of other sizes, but for my application (which frankly is the only one I care about), the economic argument is pretty ludicrous.

Keep in mind that you were able to test a lot of brands for a very low cost because of your circumstances. (And the data doesn't necessarily translate from BMW to Mini.) Just another data point for your parallel universe.

[Kurt Rahn]

Keep in mind that you were able to test a lot of brands for a very low cost because of your circumstances. (And the data doesn't necessarily translate from BMW to Mini.) Just another data point for your parallel universe.

True. But I could buy a set of each of the top four ST tires (Bridgestone, Kumho, Hankook and Toyo) for the cost of two sets of Hoosiers that would wear out after 20 runs. And then I would know which set worked best, so I would only need to test newly released tires. On the other hand, since I've never run R-comps, I'd have three sets of those to test as well (Hoosier, Kumho and the new Goodyears), at substantially higher cost per set.

Like I said, if I don't agree with all the other arguments against switching to ST tires in stock, I can at least understand them. The economic one, not so much.

[Tom Denham]

Okay, I can buy (or at least see the logic in) all the arguments against street tires in stock except the economic one. As I showed in a previous thread, in my case, R-comps are significantly more expensive than competitive street tires. Driving in STX the last year, I've driven on basically everything except the Toyo. The tire I preferred was the Hankook. I can get a set of Hankooks from Tire Rack in my size (225-45-17) for $116 each, which works out to $464 a set. Assuming I shaved them, add $25 per tire, bringing the total to $564 a set. My second favorite were the Kumho XSs, which are $140 per, for a total of $560, or $660 shaved.

A set of the same size Kumho 710s cost $216 each, or $864. And since the Hoosier seems to be the consensus tire to have, let's make sure we compare them too: $257 each, or $1028 a set.

Will someone please explain to me in what parallel universe $1028 costs me less than $564? Maybe as the tires get larger, the costs get more comparable; I'm not inclined to spend the rest of the day doing comparisons of other sizes, but for my application (which frankly is the only one I care about), the economic argument is pretty ludicrous.

Keep in mind that you were able to test a lot of brands for a very low cost because of your circumstances. (And the data doesn't necessarily translate from BMW to Mini.) Just another data point for your parallel universe.

I let others do the testing . I just look at what the Guys with money have settled on after they spent the money,OR i look at the ST class results at the NT's and Pro's for cars similar to mine. Or I ask a few of my friends, Hey Max, Greg , etc.what do you think. Hankooks anybody??
Test smarter not Harder.

[Morgan Trotter]

I'm totally cool with switching to Street tires. I'll just throw that out there. But will/could it happen? Not likely. So ill not waste my time writing a letter unless others also want to do the same. Usually, in the past its a bunch of folks that are fairly new to the sport pitching on the internet about the expense of Hoosiers.
Kurt, tom, others... if you guys want to write letters I will do the same. But, we need to have well thought out reasons other than "Hoosiers/V710's don't last long enough".
I think the safety of stock cars, the improved st tires, the larger selection, possibly more contingencies and also recommend leaving SS and AS on r comes for power and safety reasons.
Anything else? Get a list of reasons and write a well worded letter. Get it up for member review this summer.

I don't care what tires I use as long as my competitors have to use the same.

Think this will kill the ST classes?

I don't think so since a lot of new cars have the problems Steve mentioned.
(Another good thing to add to the letter)

But I believe ultimately, all those new gadgets will be the down fall of non professional motorsports across the board.

[Michael Wood]

^Morgan, you sure made some good points, there...particularly regarding the letters. I also think the point being made about new cars has some legs, too. Although, there are a number of fun cars that are either new to the market or coming to market that will be good for Solo...and there is also, I believe, a growing trend towards reversing the weight gains we've seen in cars over the last two decades, which may have positive implications for stuff to come.

[Kurt Rahn]

Kurt, tom, others... if you guys want to write letters I will do the same.

Already wrote one last year, and so did a lot of other people and all we got was a dismissive response to them as a single unit. I've already spent all the energy I'm going to on the whole street vs R-comp thing. It's not worth trying to melt an iceberg with a Bic lighter. After all the dance has been danced, the national office is going to do what it wants, period.

On the plus side, maybe my new free 710s will magically suck me into the dark side. Gonna have to wait until next year's Pro and Tour to find out.

[Morgan Trotter]

Squeaky wheel gets all the grease. For those still interested, send a letter. Like I said... I could care less. But if you want it, send a letter, not email. Send a few. Make your point heard.

[John Stimson]

1) "140" tires are a joke; they are no more "140" than Max's I.Q.

Bill, is there a particular tire you're talking about with that statement? Because I got pretty damned good mileage out of my Dunlops and Yokohamas, and the Hankooks and Bridgestones are supposed to last even longer. I have to respectfully, but completely, disagree with your statement.

[John Stimson]

Finally why all the hate for Dot R tires? Are there not enough new classes that specify 140 + wear, you all want to force that on stock too?

Honestly, because they cost as much or more than top notch street tires (50-100% more in 17" sizes) and they last half as many runs at best. There are a grand total of 5 classes that specify 140+ wear, one of which is "new". Perhaps you are confusing the number of participants (which is large) with the number of new classes. I wouldn't use the word "force" -- I'm a long-time stock competitor, and I want to run street tires. I'd just rather not have to hack up my fenders and run the ST classes in order to do it.

[John Stimson]

Squeaky wheel gets all the grease. For those still interested, send a letter. Like I said... I could care less. But if you want it, send a letter, not email. Send a few. Make your point heard.

While that is true in general, in the case of the SEB, the official channel is to submit your letter through the online submission system at http://www.sebscca.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. It is definitely the preferred method -- it will be logged and go into the review system right away. If you do submit a paper letter, someone will just have to transcribe it into the online system, which will take longer, and the committees will only see the online version anyway.

I recommend against looking up the email addresses of the committee members and writing to them directly; that's a little creepy and makes it seem like you think you're too important to bother with due process.

This is all from my own perspective as a former member of an advisory committee.

[Bill Schenker]

1) "140" tires are a joke; they are no more "140" than Max's I.Q.

Bill, is there a particular tire you're talking about with that statement? Because I got pretty damned good mileage out of my Dunlops and Yokohamas, and the Hankooks and Bridgestones are supposed to last even longer. I have to respectfully, but completely, disagree with your statement.

Good mileage AXing or driving on the street, 'cause those are two different things.

[Ron Tsumura]

What I like about using 140+ tread wear rated tires instead of Rs is not having to buy special rain tires.

[Bill Schenker]

What I like about using 140+ tread wear rated tires instead of Rs is not having to buy special rain tires.

Budget R-dotters would be in the same boat as you: they'd use the tires they drove in on as their rain tires....

[Steve Ekstrand]

Top ST cars are going to have shaved tires for concrete and full tread tires for wet in most cases. Maybe some tires like the hankook don't need shaving, but then they aren't the best rain tire either.

[Ron Tsumura]

Don't know about you but I rather go up against another street tire, shaved or otherwise, than against a rain tire. }:)

[Kurt Rahn]

it will be logged and go into the review system right away.

Maybe I'm prematurely jaded but when we all sent our letters last year (all individual, all submitted online and all assigned a separate case number), I was completely put off by the process when they listed one case number in FasTrack citing someone who'd written a letter in support of ST tires in stock and basically dismissed it out of hand. None of the other letters were subsequently mentioned and none of the other case numbers were listed in subsequent FasTracks. The rest of our letters were sanctioned with extreme prejudice. They were reviewed by the bottom of the trash can. The national office just doesn't want to hear about it.

I can say that as a driver who's not going to make a habit of driving on R-comps (and is committed to otherwise prepping his car to the limit of the rules), I wont be going to nationals again in a stock class, and the only reason I'm going to drive local national events in stock class is because I got free tires from Kumho (who rocks, BTW). I'll continue to play in our little local SK fishbowl with a bunch of sharks.

[Morgan Trotter]

Noted about the online SEB submission system. I forgot. sorry, its been a few years since I sent a letter.

[Aaron Goldsmith]

The national office just doesn't want to hear about it.

Uh, there is no "national office" that decides that stuff, those letters and those decisions are made by competitors who have volunteered to sit on rules committees. All done on conference calls and internet forums. Don't try to make it an US vs those people in topeka, it's folks like Mike Simanyi, Bill Schenker and MIke Wood that you are saying threw your letter in the trash, and have you ever noticed these folks to not take into account lots of factors and listen when making decisions.

[Christine Grice]

I can say that as a driver who's not going to make a habit of driving on R-comps (and is committed to otherwise prepping his car to the limit of the rules), I wont be going to nationals again in a stock class, and the only reason I'm going to drive local national events in stock class is because I got free tires from Kumho (who rocks, BTW). I'll continue to play in our little local SK fishbowl with a bunch of sharks.

Ok, so I have a question for you Kurt.
When you wrote your letter to the SEB/SAC (national office doesn't make the rules, so don't blame them), did you write in your letter that you are a local competitor that wants to run nationally, but cannot afford the r-comps? Or did you write it as a local competitor that will continue to only race locally except for when it is convienient for you to run a national tour but would like the rules to be changed so that stock is a street tire class?

Now, I don't know exactly what you wrote in your letter, but if it came across to the SAC that you are someone that wants street tires but never plans on commiting to race nationally, how does it benifit the sport at a national level to tailor the rules to you? Here is the not recommended quote from the Fastrack:

Street tire classes (#2857) Regions are encouraged to create classes that will create local interest in the club and promote
new memberships. Not all of these classes are necessarily suited for National status.

Which is exactly what our region has done with the SK1/SK2 classes and the CST class.

Next question... Reading this Fastrack quote again, it sounds like the person was asking for a street tire version of a lot of classes, not just switching stock to street tires. (two different topics) Maybe the SEB/SAC are still looking into your letter and discussing it, and that is why you haven't seen any response from them in the Fastracks with your case number on it.


I'm just glad this big controversy is not about moving the EVOs to ASP....

[Kurt Rahn]

(national office doesn't make the rules, so don't blame them)

My bad, I guess. I've just heard here and there about how Howard doesn't want this or Howard wants that, and assumed they set the agenda.,

did you write in your letter that you are a local competitor that wants to run nationally, but cannot afford the r-comps?

Yup. That's one additional expense I can't do. If I run the ProFinale and nationals that's $1000 (two sets of new R-comps 2X vs ST tires) added to my already thin budget. If I run an additional Pro to qualify for the Finale, it's $1500.

Now, I don't know exactly what you wrote in your letter, but if it came across to the SAC that you are someone that wants street tires but never plans on commiting to race nationally, how does it benifit the sport at a national level to tailor the rules to you?

I agree wholeheartedly. If you don't plan to run at nationals, or run at events like our local Pro and Tour, there's no reason to try to change the rules. I'd like to run in more national events where there's not an SK class.

Next question... Reading this Fastrack quote again, it sounds like the person was asking for a street tire version of a lot of classes, not just switching stock to street tires. (two different topics) Maybe the SEB/SAC are still looking into your letter and discussing it, and that is why you haven't seen any response from them in the Fastracks with your case number on it.

I suppose that could be true, but I wrote the letter about a year ago. I spent (wasted?) a lot of time and effort putting it together. I don't feel like ti was even considered. I'd like for my frustration to be misplaced and see my case # addressed in an upcoming FasTrack. Until I do, I'm assuming it's lining a birdcage someplace.

I'm just glad this big controversy is not about moving the EVOs to ASP....

Edit: Mike, I sent my letter before you were named to the SEB, so I'm not pointing fingers. I guess I should've stuck to my "no comment" policy.

[Kurt Rahn]

Uh, there is no "national office" that decides that stuff, those letters and those decisions are made by competitors who have volunteered to sit on rules committees. All done on conference calls and internet forums. Don't try to make it an US vs those people in topeka, it's folks like Mike Simanyi, Bill Schenker and MIke Wood that you are saying threw your letter in the trash, and have you ever noticed these folks to not take into account lots of factors and listen when making decisions.

So you're saying that Howard has no say in any policy issues? If you can say it with a straight face, I'll believe you.

[Aaron Goldsmith]

Uh, there is no "national office" that decides that stuff, those letters and those decisions are made by competitors who have volunteered to sit on rules committees. All done on conference calls and internet forums. Don't try to make it an US vs those people in topeka, it's folks like Mike Simanyi, Bill Schenker and MIke Wood that you are saying threw your letter in the trash, and have you ever noticed these folks to not take into account lots of factors and listen when making decisions.

So you're saying that Howard has no say in any policy issues? If you can say it with a straight face, I'll believe you.

In rules Issues? No, that's just ProSolo, Howard and staff make all the rules for ProSolo.

The Solo Events Board (SEB) makes rules decisions based off the recommendation of the Action Committees (ie. Stock Action Comittee, Prepared Action Comittee, etc). The recommendations are often followed, but sometimes the SEB sends things back down to the AC level for more work. I believe the SEB decisions are eventually approved by the Board of Directors pretty much as a rubber stamp, unless it's about GP.

[Craig Naylor]

Next question... Reading this Fastrack quote again, it sounds like the person was asking for a street tire version of a lot of classes, not just switching stock to street tires. (two different topics)

I'm just glad this big controversy is not about moving the EVOs to ASP....

OK, since you asked so politely...
Amend Stock to ST 140's request to Stock to ST 140's and Evo's to ASP on ST 140's, all other ASP cares on DOT R's. }:) JK