SCCA Solo Class Article/Discussion

[Jeff Shyu]

as an outsider, I remember one of the bigger things that bugged me about SCCA (vs. say, PCA) event was the 3 run limit.

Now, I understand that the idea of the competition is to get it done in 3 laps, but it's hard to get that excitement and "hook" into a new driver if they aren't able to perceive that improvement, especially if they are new, and takes 2 laps to not get lost. by lap 3, the times probably don't mean much.

there's a pretty big disconnect between the mindset of a SCCA vet vs. newbie. the vets are out to challenge themselves with 3 laps. The newbies barely get comfortable with the run, and it's over.

[Arthur Grant]

I think that is why it was so cool when a couple of the clubs reserved spots for newbies/novice at Saturday practices.

By the same token on a championship Sunday, how much longer would you like to stand out there in the August sun well we add a dozen runs. The other orgs charge and pay for workers so the driver doesn't have to shag cones or flag. It's a trade off.

I belong to both NASA and Speed Ventures, and well I love running the small SV autocross course and it was a good starter, good people the truth is that you don't win anything, and there isn't any real competition. Now the on track activities are different, NASA races , but for SV only really racing are the spec series some of which were started by Cal Club.

[Rick Brown]

I'm guessing the reference to "only 3 runs" indicates you get more at SV events. I'm also guessing that is due to much lower turnouts. That's pretty much the only way to give more runs. So I'd say that SCCA's success with Solo (at least in Calif regions) is the reason for fewer runs. If they want more runs with SCCA, move to an area with a small region. We have been offering 4 most of the time lately.

[soapbox]
The 3 run concept is what makes our sport truly challenging. If you want to practice half a day then take competitive runs, it's just not the same. I'm sorry, I don't have a lot of patience for the "instant gratification" crowd. I probably competed for 3 or 4 years before I even moved into the top half of my class, let alone won anything.
[\soapbox]

[Doug Teulie]

I don't like 4 runs on Solo Sunday. I like just 3, but I am kind of on the sport side of the argument as a driver.

The last time I went to SV the drivers got 25-30 runs and quit early (3:30). I was teaching not driving. They had several young drivers in stock cars. It was fun to see all the smiles. The drivers told me that they did not like our format. They don’t like our classing and can’t get into our practices.
I bring this up because a driver that sees the fun at our local events may continue to support a local class (first SK and then Stock). If the same driver sees the fun in local competition they may move to Tour and Pro and possibly Nationals.

[Bob Pl]

Just a couple of "data points" to add, I have participated in the stock class arguements & how to get new members involved in Solo before & it's deja vu all over again (Yogi ism).

Both BMWCCA & PCA autox that I do require working on course same as SCCA.

They get more runs in the same amount of daylight by running one "line" at a time & that "line" goes from grid (1st lap) to a hot lane (2nd thru 4th lap).

The tire pressure adjustments and tire watering & shocks/bars whatever else you tweak does not happen for 98% of the drivers, a few find a place off to the side & can take care of this. So each line goes faster = more laps.

There is no course walking.

Usually paid attendance is (limited) at around 100 cars, $60 (includes lunch/drinks).

Customers pay more because they think it's worth it.

You do 4 practice laps then work/rest then 4 more practice laps work/rest then 3 timed laps for competition. Different regions may vary this, so don't post "That's not how WE do it", whatever.

With BMW in particular, it's MUCH more oriented to "customer service". Students/noobs have an instructor for all their first 4 runs & again (if requested) for their 2nd 4 runs. Instructors get to run their cars after all the students are taken care of, and depending on how many show up, it can be a lot of work. When we take our runs we are expected to give rides to students & guests.

Both the BMWand PCA allow a few x cars (non marque).

So they are simply offering a different "product" than SCCA. Both have a place. The other RL & SV I know much less about.

[Rick Brown]

Just a couple of "data points" to add, I have participated in the stock class arguements & how to get new members involved in Solo before & it's deja vu all over again (Yogi ism).

They get more runs in the same amount of daylight by running one "line" at a time & that "line" goes from grid (1st lap) to a hot lane (2nd thru 4th lap).

That statement makes no sense. All else being equal (lunch breaks, worker turn over, red flags), the only thing determining the number of runs in a given time period is how often you send a car. As long as there are cars at the start line, it doesn't matter how you get them there.

[Rick Brown]

We could do what both Doug and Bob describe above, but then what do we do with the other 100 or so drivers we turn away? That's not customer oriented to me. Comparing our championship events to their practices plus a few competition runs is meaningless because they limit entries. The fact that our practices are harder to get into simply shows they are more desirable.

[Jeff Shyu]

it's not hard to see why SCCA is not "newb friendly" when you read through the comments in the thread.. and I definitely don't mean that in a negative way.

the reality is that SCCA solo II IS what defines auto-x.. you do it in 3 runs, or not at all. Anyone can improve their time if they're allowed to run the same course 10-20, or even 30 times - the challenge of auto-x vs. time trial is to be able to run the best possible time in so few chances. That's why I'm always impressed by the people who are able to run so consistent of a time in their 3 runs, even though the course is new to them, and they've done nothing but walk the course.

for a newbie though, they don't know their car well enough, they definitely don't know the course, and it'd be very very VERY rare for them to have friends helping out to check their tire temp / pressure between runs. They are simply looking at their times from run 1, 2, and 3, and hoping that each run improves.

Solo 2 is a competition, and not a local basketball pickup game type of competition. the people who really want to play, read the rules, and prep accordingly. to specifically try to entice / tailor Solo2 to newbies would be like the NBA artificially installing rules to try to level the playing field so that guys from pickup games can compete.

maybe the solution is region sponsored events AFTER the national (the crappy part of the country's 'off season') that are more oriented toward newb introductions to the sport.

[Craig Naylor]

as an outsiderthere's a pretty big disconnect between the mindset of a SCCA vet vs. newbie. the vets are out to challenge themselves with 3 laps. The newbies barely get comfortable with the run, and it's over.

I hate this argument. It assumes the whole chicken vs. egg argument. Except, we know for a fact every one of the "vet(s)" was once a "newbie", and were not placed on earth as a "vet".

On the other hand, not every "vet" started in LA under the 3 run championship on Sunday guise. Many started in other regions, or at an earlier time when 3 runs was not the standard. For that matter some of the people who a few years ago argued most adamantly for the only 3 and no more, I know for a fact started their AX career (for a lack of better term) with more runs than that. When I started in SD in '97 4-5 runs was the norm. Fun runs at the end of the day was also the norm.... and you did not have to work again for the fun runs, the sponsoring club worked them.

[Doug Teulie]

Looking at this year's points for SCCA classes v.s. PAX or local classes you can see ST is the largest set of classes by far.
PAX 27
PAX SK 24
PAX HIST 10
CST 19
Nov 5
..............
Stock 20
ST 46
SP 20
SM 10
CPM 17

[Katy Nicholls]

Despite all the supposed interest in street tire stock classes, outside of local events, where is the evidence that supports the demand for it? When SK classes are made available for those that state participation would increase if they were available, still no participation. There were a total of 4 drivers between two available index classes at the SD Tour and exactly zero entrants for the ET Pro.

For significant changes to be made support for the cause needs to be evident. The opportunity to prove the demand is in place. Where is the actual proof of interest?

STR is a perfect example of providing proof of concept. Opportunity was made available (like SK classes) and despite being a supplemental class, participants demonstrated overwhelming support by showing up and running the class.

"STOCK Class participation IS DOWN, including at Nationals, while ST classes are up."

As far as trying to correlate reasons as to why Stock numbers may be down to why people run ST, I doubt the majority of ST class drivers would directly state it is specifically because they want to run on street tires.

Among the many reasons ST classes are popular is the fact that they are the first rung of classes that allow one to improve suspension and handling challenges that may not be able to be resolved within the stock allowance without having to entertain the idea of competitively preparing a car for SP, etc.

In regards to participation from a newbie aspect, IMHO, the SCCA has done a good job at offering local regions the freedom to offer SK and other local classes (CST, CSM, SU, IS1, IS2) so that pretty much anyone can come out and have a place to run. Until those classes demonstrate that there is an overwhelming interest demanding change I don't see cause for it. If people don't want to run on index or think SKs are too competitive locally and want to run on street tires in their own little microcosm, then let's talk about that. At a competitive level, I really don't think the cost of R tire vs. street tire is a good argument especially when we start talking sizes larger than 15".

[Bob Pl]

Just a couple of "data points" to add, I have participated in the stock class arguements & how to get new members involved in Solo before & it's deja vu all over again (Yogi ism).

They get more runs in the same amount of daylight by running one "line" at a time & that "line" goes from grid (1st lap) to a hot lane (2nd thru 4th lap).

That statement makes no sense. All else being equal (lunch breaks, worker turn over, red flags), the only thing determining the number of runs in a given time period is how often you send a car. As long as there are cars at the start line, it doesn't matter how you get them there.

You forgot the no course walking, no lunch break, and I forgot to mention no reruns (except timed runs & then very few, oh and no jr carts (and I don't have anything against them), and no fun runs. Theres more. Much fewer "hold the start" due to T/S issues, and almost no "eagle eye" (cone out of place) reruns.

So it must be a miracle! Do you think I am making this all up? Go to a BMW event & see for yourself. Seriously.

I take a month off from posting, and throw a few facts out (as usual) and still I am wrong.

Really, I do not care how local SCCA regions run their events. I like them, I show up, it's all good. Whatever.

And before some genius posts "that's not the same type of event" as SCCA, well that's the whole point, go back up 8 posts and read.

[Doug Teulie]

As far as trying to correlate reasons as to why Stock numbers may be down to why people run ST, I doubt the majority of ST class drivers would directly state it is specifically because they want to run on street tires.

Stock: I think it is because of the stock class scramble and the economic down turn. The stock class scramble was very disruptive at a time when people did not want to spend any extra money on anything.
ST: Because the ST modifications are popular outside of SCCA.

[Jeff Stuart]

There were a total of 4 drivers between two available index classes at the SD Tour and exactly zero entrants for the ET Pro.

There were 23 SK drivers at last year's National Tour, so I don't think it's fair to use this as an argument against street tires.

[Doug Teulie]

We could do what both Doug and Bob describe above, but then what do we do with the other 100 or so drivers we turn away? That's not customer oriented to me. Comparing our championship events to their practices plus a few competition runs is meaningless because they limit entries. The fact that our practices are harder to get into simply shows they are more desirable.

Over the past 3 years I have done fewer and fewer practice runs. Even when I was attending every practice I would do only 5 runs because MY tires are so expensive and I don't get that much faster on runs 6-12. I don't want 30 runs.

If we want to attract new drivers we need to have special events for them. We have a good novice program but we are not connecting with the rest of the would be drivers I see each week at dinner. I know 8 guys that are setting up cars for Auto-x (even have and or getting R comps) attended EVO school but they refuse to run SCCA. They run with the Porsche group and SV.

[Craig Naylor]

As far as trying to correlate reasons as to why Stock numbers may be down to why people run ST, I doubt the majority of ST class drivers would directly state it is specifically because they want to run on street tires.

Who cares what tires ST drivers want to drive on... and how does that relate to Stock?

If you meant SK drivers then...
I disagree.... but you haven't been around as long, and really haven't spent much if any time in Stock classes, relatively speaking. Plus you've mostly driven other peoples cars. As such I don't believe you have a sense of what those who do or have run stock consistently might be concerned about.

My stock class car was competitive before it was involved in the first of several bottom end Stock Class consolidations. I started running 140 rubber in SD before moving to LA where the SK classes existed at the time. Actually everyone in ES (consolidated to GS) at the time made a gentleman's agreement we would run ST rubber for all local events for the FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF TIRE BUDGET SAVINGS! We pulled out the R-dot for the two national events because there was no SK class in existance at the time, even locally.
Once in LA, I continued running the car in SK because the lack of grip in the 140's actually helped my car be more competitive in it's re-organized class as the rubber available became a bit of an equalizer. (Aka the top car could not take as much advantage of the street rubber grip as it could the R-dot). This made it less of an over-dog in the class, which has since been rectified in another consolidation.....

The vast majority of those running ST & STS in So Cal, previously ran in stock classes. Of those many of them also ran in the SK classes. While much may have been invested in some of these cars, I'm willing to go out on a limb and say very few (if any) have changed cars, have invested into their ST / STS cars what they would need to to have a Nationally competitive Stock car, even to run in GS & HS.

I'm willing to bet a few of them did it for the same reasons I did. I purchased, built, and have put 140 rubber on my STS Miata for less money I can purchase any current Stock class car before prepping, or shoeing it in R-dot rubber. Plus (for me) it put at the time a spare car in the family fleet.

At a competitive level, I really don't think the cost of R tire vs. street tire is a good argument especially when we start talking sizes larger than 15".

You may not think so, but others have posted reality. With the exception of the big and wide rubber on SS and AS types, the majority of other Stock class tires are cheaper when comparing stock legal sizes in R-dot and 140 rubber. Add tire life to the equation, and 140 beats R-dot hands down in the cost comparisons.

[KJ Christopher]

There were a total of 4 drivers between two available index classes at the SD Tour and exactly zero entrants for the ET Pro.

There were 23 SK drivers at last year's National Tour, so I don't think it's fair to use this as an argument against street tires.

I hear you Jeff, but that was one of two years for one stop. Unfortunately, the other NT/PS events have had poor results too. If people really want this, they need to show up. Frustrating, I know.

[Jeff Stuart]

I hear you Jeff, but that was one of two years for one stop. Unfortunately, the other NT/PS events have had poor results too. If people really want this, they need to show up. Frustrating, I know.

I'm not saying one year of good participation proves that there should be a change, I'm just annoyed when the negative data point is used when there is an equally strong positive data point.

Now maybe there are SK classes being run all throughout the nation and the 2010 SD Tour and ET ProSolo are the only two successful times so far. I don't know, I've only ever been to SD and ET. For me, 50% of the National Level events I've participated in had very strong SK numbers.

Even if they were all bad though, I don't think it proves stock on street tires wouldn't work better.

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

I'm not saying one year of good participation proves that there should be a change, I'm just annoyed when the negative data point is used when there is an equally strong positive data point.

Now maybe there are SK classes being run all throughout the nation and the 2010 SD Tour and ET ProSolo are the only two successful times so far. I don't know, I've only ever been to SD and ET. For me, 50% of the National Level events I've participated in had very strong SK numbers.

Even if they were all bad though, I don't think it proves stock on street tires wouldn't work better.

It is easy enough to pull results from the other tours and pros (Gio posts a link to all of them on this forum ;) )... You might notice right off the bat the lack of an ST/stock class at most of them, that is a great indicator as to the lack of demand for ST/stock on the National level.

[Jeff Stuart]

It's clear to me that switching stock to street tires is probably never going to happen. It's too controversial, so not very likely to change IMO. Everything I'm saying is are just the opinions I've formed in my year and a half in the sport.

I know that "Stock" allowing slick tires was one of the biggest shocks to me at my first event, as a complete noob. I had done quite a bit of research trying to figure out how the classes worked and where my car would fit (Cougar at the time) and I went to the first event planning to run HS. I was running NOV for my first event, but looked at the other HS cars all on slicks and was completely surprised. Luckily I started in November, so I was able to spend the rest of the year figuring out what class I really wanted to participate in, and I started competing in SK2 at the January event.

That is the main reason I'm so vocal in these street tire stock threads...

[Aaron Goldsmith]

It's clear to me that switching stock to street tires is probably never going to happen. It's too controversial, so not very likely to change IMO. Everything I'm saying is are just the opinions I've formed in my year and a half in the sport.

I know that "Stock" allowing slick tires was one of the biggest shocks to me at my first event, as a complete noob. I had done quite a bit of research trying to figure out how the classes worked and where my car would fit (Cougar at the time) and I went to the first event planning to run HS. I was running NOV for my first event, but looked at the other HS cars all on slicks and was completely surprised. Luckily I started in November, so I was able to spend the rest of the year figuring out what class I really wanted to participate in, and I started competing in SK2 at the January event.

That is the main reason I'm so vocal in these street tire stock threads...

I can see that, though just as an aside, they don't allow slick tires in any classes less than Prepared. Stock and SP allow only the use of Department of Transportation street legal tires, Hoosier and the like have found the absolute limit of what DOT will allow. Groove and tire wear wise. A6s are very good, but actual slicks are better, almost a full tenth of a G better.

Yes they say not for higway use.. but that's because hoosier doesn't want the legal issues.

[Jeff Stuart]

I can see that, though just as an aside, they don't allow slick tires in any classes less than Prepared. Stock and SP allow only the use of Department of Transportation street legal tires, Hoosier and the like have found the absolute limit of what DOT will allow. Groove and tire wear wise. A6s are very good, but actual slicks are better, almost a full tenth of a G better.

Yes they say not for higway use.. but that's because hoosier doesn't want the legal issues.

Yeah I know, you know what I meant.

Edit: Also, to my noob self a year and a half ago, that distinction was ridiculous. DOT approved or not, they were way faster than my OEM tires.

[Katy Nicholls]

I would not consider the posting of real data a negative perspective necessarily. I specifically only posted SD and ET info. for a reference. As Isley pointed out, one is welcome to check the other results to find that in addition to our region’s national events, others event results across the country have shown similar lack of interest. For rules to change, something has to be more than a flash in the pan. Because something was popular a year ago, it does not prove that is consistently desirable enough to go make significant rule changes that would affect every stock class in the entire SCCA program.

Craig, as unfortunately you are, everyone is welcome to an opinion. There is no point in wasting your time pointing out my experience or lack thereof because I will be the first to tell you and anyone else that it is limited. That does not mean that I am not allowed an opinion on the matter or that just because I happen to drive others’ cars I have no perspective or pulse in the community.

It sounds like your real issue is with class consolidation.

Thank you once again for freely proving that you are an ass.

[Mako Koiwai]

As a reminder, in case you haven't been following it ... there are a lot of responses from around the country being posted to the original Solo Matters article:

http://solomatters.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... ing-stock/

[Jeff Stuart]

As a reminder, in case you haven't been following it ... there are a lot of responses from around the country being posted to the original Solo Matters article:

http://solomatters.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... ing-stock/

There's more than enough drama right here... I'm not going to go looking for more.