Stock Street Tire Idea?

[Kurt Rahn]

While driving home last night, I thought of an idea for including street tires in stock classes that was so simple, I figured I was missing something. I thought about it all day today, and it still makes sense to me, so I figured I'd post it and see what the peanut gallery had to say about it.

Basically it applies a single street tire index to people driving in stock classes, similar to how we PAX the local SK classes. So basically, if I'm driving in CS, I can drive my car on R comps, or I can drive it on 140+ treadwear tires and take a handicap. But all stock class competitors compete head to head, regardless what kind of tire they choose to run on.

Compared to other proposals I've heard, here are the pros, as I see it:
* Maintains a single set of stock classes, rather than doubling the existing set or even adding a single additional class
* Doesn't force R-comp drivers to abandon the setups they spent so much time and money developing
* Doesn't force SK drivers to blow out their tire budget
* Doesn't rely on the fickle PAX calculation to combine multiple classes like SK1 and SK2
* Increases the overall pool of stock drivers, rather than excluding a potentially large subset or driving them to other classes

The only con I could come up with is:
* How would the SK index be developed and who would develop it?

Okay, have at it!

[Eric Clements]

Check the supps, a street tire index was developed years ago. .975 maybe? Don't know if it has kept up with the current crop of ST tires...

[Kurt Rahn]

Check the supps, a street tire index was developed years ago. .975 maybe? Don't know if it has kept up with the current crop of ST tires...

Yeah, I was thinking to keep some sort of parity between the two types of tire, it'd have to be redeveloped every year. If it's a national thing, it'd have to be taken more seriously and maintained annually, since there are new street tire contenders just about every year.

[Tom Tanquary]

I would suggest looking at the raw times of SK1 vs. SK2 over the last couple of years both here and SD. Street tires create a weird world in stock.

[Michael Wood]

I would suggest looking at the raw times of SK1 vs. SK2 over the last couple of years both here and SD. Street tires create a weird world in stock.

Quoted for insight, truthfulness and informational value

Laying another layer of "theoretical" on theoretical does have its issues...just weight, alone, has a significantly bigger skewing effect on streets than it does on r-comps ...

Check out the National Street Tire Challenge events being held this year, if you want to see how well received the street tire idea, in general, is playing at a larger level. The first event in Mineral Wells drew 70 entrants across all indexed classes.

[John Stimson]

Along Tom's line of thought (browser locked up when I hit post on this last night): the performance benefit gained by running DOT-R tires depends strongly on the type of car. Front-engine, rear drive cars with lots of power benefit the most, low-power all wheel drive cars benefit the least. A single value can't be a fair street tire adjustment across all models and classes. You would see un-planned incentives to run a particular type of tire on a particular car in classes with mixed types. In B Stock, Evos and Subarus would all run street tires and S2000s, Corvettes, and Solstices would all run DOT-Rs. In SS, you'd still not see Corvettes on street tires, but I bet the Lotus drivers would go for them.

[KJ Christopher]

Along Tom's line of thought (browser locked up when I hit post on this last night): the performance benefit gained by running DOT-R tires depends strongly on the type of car. Front-engine, rear drive cars with lots of power benefit the most, low-power all wheel drive cars benefit the least. A single value can't be a fair street tire adjustment across all models and classes. You would see un-planned incentives to run a particular type of tire on a particular car in classes with mixed types. In B Stock, Evos and Subarus would all run street tires and S2000s, Corvettes, and Solstices would all run DOT-Rs. In SS, you'd still not see Corvettes on street tires, but I bet the Lotus drivers would go for them.

Excellent point, John.

[Kristoffer Gjevre]

Along Tom's line of thought (browser locked up when I hit post on this last night): the performance benefit gained by running DOT-R tires depends strongly on the type of car. Front-engine, rear drive cars with lots of power benefit the most, low-power all wheel drive cars benefit the least. A single value can't be a fair street tire adjustment across all models and classes. You would see un-planned incentives to run a particular type of tire on a particular car in classes with mixed types. In B Stock, Evos and Subarus would all run street tires and S2000s, Corvettes, and Solstices would all run DOT-Rs. In SS, you'd still not see Corvettes on street tires, but I bet the Lotus drivers would go for them.

Very good points, and I also think that the course layout would additionally skew the theoretical specified difference between the DOT-R tires and street tires.

[Jayson Woodruff]

In SS, you'd still not see Corvettes on street tires.

You would if it started raining.

The surface type also makes a big difference in the performance gap of ST tires and R-comps. Slippery sealed asphalt brings the two tire types together while grippy concrete tends to seperate them.

Jay W

[Kurt Rahn]

There's definitely no magic bullet. Trying to make the index absolutely perfect for all cars and conditions isn't feasible, obviously. People smarter than me would have to figure out a pretty comprehensive set of protocols to create the index, then tweak if for a couple years until it was usable, I imagine. But the larger point is, the choice would be the competitors' whether to run R-comps or street tires. Do you like your chances running your Corvette on R-comps straight up on concrete? Then make that call. Think you can run with the big boys on street tires and take the handicap in your Elise on asphalt? Then go for it. But at least then it's a strategic choice. Now there's no choice.

Yes, that means that the really serious, deep-pocketed competitors would have multiple set of both kinds of tires and use the ones they thought would work best at any given event. But they're going to spend like that regardless. Will they dominate? Probably. But at least the street tire guys (and gals) will be able to compete with them on a relatively even playing field, and even surprise them every once in a while.

[Marshall Grice]

last time I checked there was nothing stopping anyone from running street tires in stock currently. Like most other rules changes, demonstrate a need and the rules will accommodate that need. don't break what works based on a guess.

[Kurt Rahn]

last time I checked there was nothing stopping anyone from running street tires in stock currently. Like most other rules changes, demonstrate a need and the rules will accommodate that need. don't break what works based on a guess.

No one's stopping me from running the Mini in AM against KJ's time bender, either, but why would I bother? If there is concern over lack of participation, then the obvious thing to me is to try and address it in a way that works for most people (you can't ever make everyone happy), rather than take a "let them eat cake" attitude.

I just put this idea out there to see if anyone else could convince me it's stupid and won't work. If they can't then I'll put together another letter to the SEB trying to justify it. But if the article in Solo Matters is any indication, stock doesn't necessarily "work", and if participation issues are not addressed before things get worse and it becomes patently obvious, it might be too late to fix.

[Marshall Grice]

No one's stopping me from running the Mini in AM against KJ's time bender, either, but why would I bother?

Nobody is proposing the merger of AM with stock classes. }:)

[Kurt Rahn]

No one's stopping me from running the Mini in AM against KJ's time bender, either, but why would I bother?

Nobody is proposing the merger of AM with stock classes. }:)

I think the Mini would look pretty cool with a couple big a$$ wings, so maybe that'll be my next Quixotic quest

It's true, nobody is stopping anyone from running street tires against other cars shod with R comps. But why would anyone want to bring a knife to a gun fight? The larger question is whether the SCCA wants to encourage more participation in stock classes or discourage it.

[Craig Naylor]

The larger question is whether the SCCA wants to encourage more participation in stock classes or discourage it.

We have the street tire index that we use locally (CSCC) when paxing the SK cars into the overall "pax" for the event for individual overall points year end trophy. SCNAX also uses it for the SCNAX cup (qualifications, and event scoring)

I don't think I have ever seen anyone else bring this idea up when talking about street vs r compounds for Stock class competition, when it has been staring members of our region at least in the face for years. Just arguments for/against one or the other.

If you write a letter to the SEB I'd love a copy of it. I'll make it my own, and send it off too. (Don't need a bunch of form letters going in)

[Michael Wood]

You assume that street tires would "encourage participation" in stock. What is your evidence?

Stock, contrary to the provacative story written by Heyward for SoloMatters, is not dead. Does it need attention? Yep. Is the street tire idea worth exploring? Yep.

Like I said before, keep your eyes on the National Street Tire Challenge events, as they represent the best opportunity for street tire proponents to put up...or shut up. At the very least, they'll give some data as to the broad based, as opposed to secular/local, interest in street tires in stock. They are structured as two day events with contingency and SCCA support. If they only draw relatively small numbers (Mineral Wells had 70, but it is in Podunk, Nowhere) and the participants are primarily from the host region, there's not much evidence to support the "fervor" that many believe exists around the street tire proposal.

Your original idea is, I'm confident, going to be a non-starter at a National level, starting with the reasons John pointed out. Write the letter, it will get full attention and discussion, but there's no way what is currently 100% pure "heads up" competition is going to an arbitrary handicap system ...just my opinion, not speaking for anyone else yadda yadda yadda

[Craig Naylor]

Like I said before, keep your eyes on the National Street Tire Challenge events, as they represent the best opportunity for street tire proponents to put up...or shut up.

To few events, to base anything off of. CSCC, SD and SF all have healthy Street tire classes, and are some of the largest Autocross regions. Mineral Wells is 1300-1700 miles away from our regions. No one is going to drive that far for a one day event to "put up" as you put it. To suggest such is ludicrous.

Look at how few we drew to the Divisional from out side the region to compete in the R-tire, stock classes. The Divisional is a two (three -if you count the practice course on Friday) day event. You really think people will drive in farther for a one day event? It's only going to draw local, or surrounding region members.

Using your logic, the low draw from outside the region in Stock at the Divisional is proof it's broken. While I think stock is broken, I don't believe the turn out in and of it's self demonstrates what is broken. What I do beleive is that the Divisional is a better example than the Pro or Tour as to the acceptance of Stock class drivers of the interest in Street tires by their showing in Sk classes.

The real draw for such an event, (National Street Tire Challenge) is to draw new people to the SCCA family.

[Mako Koiwai]

The real draw for such an event, (National Street Tire Challenge) is to draw new people to the SCCA family.

Isn't that why Street Tires for Stock Classes is being discussed?

[Michael Wood]

I'm not going to get into this debate, as it is circular and I think it unlikely that anything new will surface.

At a National level, there is no compelling evidence that street tires are what the membership wants or that such policy would promote participation in stock classes. My point relative to the NSTC events is that they provide a very visible opportunity for street tire supporters, the type that show up at Tours, Pros and Nationals, to prove their existence.

Regions already have street tire index classes, so the "new members" argument is a red herring...

I am NOT against street tires in stock. In many ways, I think it is an idea with merit.

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

CSCC, SD and SF all have healthy Street tire classes, and are some of the largest Autocross regions.

There are just as many Regions, big and small, that don't offer ST-Stock classes. Many National Tours have offered ST-Stock class, and we have seen them fall short over the long run. Just continues to show it is a Regional problem, and has a successful Regional solution already in place.

No way national stock-index floats, this idea is a non starter.

[John Stimson]

Kurt, are you making a suggestion for local use, or for national implementation?

If you're talking about local use, the SK1 and SK2 classes cover your need pretty well. My own long term plans involve SK1. They may suffer from the imperfections of an index system, but at least you don't need two sets of tires to be prepared for variations in surface and conditions. With your proposal, I would run DOT-R tires at El Toro and street tires at Fontana. The whole reason I wanted to run SK1 was to stop having to buy Hoosiers. With your plan, I'd need Hoosiers AND good street tires. And both sets would probably end up getting hard before they wore out. That's far worse than the current situation in stock.

For the reasons described above, I would rather see national stock classes converted wholesale to street tires, than to have a street tire handicap. The SEB isn't likely to go for it, anyway. They really don't like using indexes for competition. ProSolo uses indexes, but that's outside the SEB's control.

[Reijo Silvennoinen]

Up here in Western Canada some of the clubs have the same kind of pax modifier for street tire classes ... think it was 0.98 a couple of years ago....not sure what there is now. Our club actually dumped it since STR and other S-classes were adopted with the SCCA rules.

However what I have noted is that the people who use the street tire modifiers tend to be locals (for a city) who do not travel to events even in neighbouring cities that are not very far away. In other words as someone else mentioned, perhaps this can be handled on a local basis - e.g. the existing street tire modifier.

R

[Kurt Rahn]

Up here in Western Canada some of the clubs have the same kind of pax modifier for street tire classes ... think it was 0.98 a couple of years ago....not sure what there is now. Our club actually dumped it since STR and other S-classes were adopted with the SCCA rules.

However what I have noted is that the people who use the street tire modifiers tend to be locals (for a city) who do not travel to events even in neighbouring cities that are not very far away. In other words as someone else mentioned, perhaps this can be handled on a local basis - e.g. the existing street tire modifier.

R

Speaking purely from a selfish standpoint, I would love to be able to go to drive-away events. It seems like there was extra-local representation in the SK classes at the divisional, but it's hard to judge looking at only one or two events. Unfortunately, it seems like the national mindset is to default to "the cheap bastards won't be willing to travel, so screw 'em." Personally I believe that, as when everyone knew the world was flat, the only way to know for sure is to try it. But all I can do it express my opinion, so that's what I'll keep doing.

[John Stimson]

I wrote a proposal for exhibition street tire classes at Nationals. The default would be one combined indexed class, with the ability to bump out of the class if your category (Stock / Street Prepared / Street Mod) or drive configuration (AWD, FWD, RWD) was large enough to stand on its own. An individual class (AS, CSP) could bump out and run by itself if enough competitors were entered.

It was rejected because the SEB does not want to use PAX even on a temporary basis for an exhibition/trial class.

[KJ Christopher]

Speaking purely from a selfish standpoint, I would love to be able to go to drive-away events. It seems like there was extra-local representation in the SK classes at the divisional, but it's hard to judge looking at only one or two events. Unfortunately, it seems like the national mindset is to default to "the cheap bastards won't be willing to travel, so screw 'em." Personally I believe that, as when everyone knew the world was flat, the only way to know for sure is to try it. But all I can do it express my opinion, so that's what I'll keep doing.

Kurt - step back a little and look at this a little more objectively and less cynicism. National types aren't approaching this with that attitude. They are looking at evidence that suggests there isn't a market for the class. Unfortunately, the street tire stock crowd has done little to sway opinions that they aren't in it enough to make the commitment, despite a lot of effort by a few individuals to rally the troops.

This is very similar to the situation I faced with the RX8 and its SP classing. The RX8 isn't a BSP (or CSP) car. It is an underpowered, overweight Miata. The only reason it did well in stock class is its extremely good handling. The logic that it should play with the same cars in SP as it did in Stock is flawed as SP allowances address all the handling shortcomings of its competitors and few of the power shortcomings of the RX8. Seriously, full tilt road racing builds of the Renesis engine produce very little additional power than the STX build I did. Logic would say that if the RX8 is evenly matched with the E36 in ST, it should follow it to SP and not be bumped up a class to fight with even higher powered cars. There is a long thread dealing with this on SCCA forums, where tangible evidence is presented by the RX8 crowd and a couple of BMW driving morons continue to post uninformed opinions on how much power an RX8 can generate with SP mods. And people write letters every year to the SEB on the issue. But until someone properly builds the RX8 for SP and gets killed in the current class, it ain't going to move.

The SEB almost always 'defaults' to "show me and we'll make it happen".

All this coming from someone who would like to see stock classes on street tires, with appropriate class shuffling.