MSM miata vs AP1 S2K -- opinions?

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MSM miata vs AP1 S2K -- opinions?

Post by Dan Shaw »

Hey everyone. It's been a long time!

Well, it's the time to replace my miata I think. It's starting to play suckerfish with my wallet and I don't like wasting cash...so, I'm looking into my alternative which is getting in debt :lol:

I'm always planning around what to do that would be fun to autox. My ideal candidates are the models lsted above (Mazdaspeed Miata and the AP1 S2K). My dilemma is this:

I typically will run the SK class. I'm looking at the results and I'm seeing SK topped by the RX8 and S2000 (AP2 I think). For those in the know on the MSM, is it so hard to drive that car in autox no one does it? Or is it just awkwardly classed? I have to say I was super excited when I skimmed the classes and saw it got demoted to C, but got curious why no one jumped on it.

For those in the s2k camp, is the ap2 that much better for the class? Does the AP1 miss out or is it still pretty competitive? I have driven one at speed thanks to Ron Tsumura many years ago and fell in love with the car, but I'm not as familiar with it. Likewise reliability speaking does the car hold up well?

I understand we are taking Sk1 and SK2 classes, so I anticipate there will be different perspectives..also most people in SK1 don't call it a fun class since tires limit you a lot, but I felt by now tires would be less of an issue thanks to ST classes making tire vendors crank out better road rubber.

Thanks again, and I hope everyone is doing well. :thumbup:

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Re: MSM miata vs AP1 S2K -- opinions?

Post by Max Hayter »

MSM is badly classed in BS and has a short 2nd gear which makes it mostly uncompetitive for AX.

AP1 would make an excellent choice. For BS, you really want a AP2 CR package to be nationally competitive, but some might argue that an AP1 can still get it done.

Go to STR, and the AP1 can certainly get it done at the National level. There were two AP1's in the top 4 at STR in Lincoln a few weeks ago.

I would go with an AP1 as it will give you more flexibility down the line when you decide that stock classes suck :)
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Re: MSM miata vs AP1 S2K -- opinions?

Post by Ron Tsumura »

You should try the AP2 also. It has wider 17" wheels. (Better tire selection than 16" AP1)

I got to drive a PCA competitive Porsche Boxster. You should try it out if you have the means..(says Buehler)
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Re: MSM miata vs AP1 S2K -- opinions?

Post by Dan Shaw »

Max, I found out last night the MSM from 04/05 is now classed in c stock. That's why I got so interested in it since it's no longer outgunned in B.

Ron, funny you say Boxter, so did a friend of mine. Main issue I take with that car is the motor isn't easily serviced and i prefer to do my own work. It's buried under layers and layers.

As for the ap1/ap2, I'm leaning towards the AP1 mostly since it's in my price range. I can afford one for roughly 13k. I was only curious if the car had some inherent disadvantage in terms of speed or agility. From the homework I've done so far, all things being equal the AP1 is a few tenths faster. Figured if anyone knew why it would be the people I know who drive them fastest in the country :)
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Re: MSM miata vs AP1 S2K -- opinions?

Post by Max Hayter »

In BS, CR > AP2 > AP1, so I'm not sure what you are reading. Just look at the BS results from Nationals.

In CS, Slowstice/MSR > *

In STR, CR > AP2/AP1, but frankly it's all pretty close.

As for the MSM in CS, I had not heard that. Is that for next year? Even so, the gearing will still suck.
Last edited by Max Hayter on Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: MSM miata vs AP1 S2K -- opinions?

Post by Leonard Cachola »

The MSM has been in C-Stock for a while now - at least since I've been autocrossing. You would have to really love shifting since the top of 2nd gear comes up at 45 mph. There was a guy who did well in one in Houston for a few seasons, but they're really outgunned by the Solstice and MS-R. Not sure how one would do against my car, though.

Max, you might be getting the MSM in C-Stock vs B-Stock (though it may have started in BS) confused with BSP vs CSP — the MSM competes in BSP while the rest of the Miatas are in CSP.

I've autocrossed several stock S2Ks over the years on street tires and had a lot of fun in them, but I still don't like the steering compared to the Miatas. Problem with AP1 is that the CR is the one to have as far as S2Ks are concerned. Still, should be fine for local SK competition.

Either way, you're going to be in a car that isn't tops in the class, so it just depends on which car you like more.
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Re: MSM miata vs AP1 S2K -- opinions?

Post by Max Hayter »

What Leonard said.

The main benefit of the AP1 over a MSM, is at least it is competitive in STR. The MSM is competitive nowhere.

If you must run in a stock class, buy an AP2.

Me, on a budget build, I would buy an AP1 or a NC Miata and build for STR as funds allow. STR is where the real men run, don't ya know :D
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Re: MSM miata vs AP1 S2K -- opinions?

Post by Leonard Cachola »

Max Hayter wrote:
Me, on a budget build, I would buy an AP1 or a NC Miata and build for STR as funds allow. STR is where the real men run, don't ya know :D
Actually, this would be a good way to go since you like doing your own wrenching, Dan. Also, you can find either in stock form well within your budget.
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Re: MSM miata vs AP1 S2K -- opinions?

Post by KJ Christopher »

A little higher than your stated budget, but if you could swing it, this would be an awesome car to have: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5559" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wouldn't hurt to just make Jeff an offer and see how far apart you are.
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Re: MSM miata vs AP1 S2K -- opinions?

Post by Max Hayter »

KJ Christopher wrote:A little higher than your stated budget, but if you could swing it, this would be an awesome car to have: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5559" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wouldn't hurt to just make Jeff an offer and see how far apart you are.
I was just about to post the same thing!
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Re: MSM miata vs AP1 S2K -- opinions?

Post by Jeff Cawthorne »

Max Hayter wrote:
KJ Christopher wrote:A little higher than your stated budget, but if you could swing it, this would be an awesome car to have: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5559" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wouldn't hurt to just make Jeff an offer and see how far apart you are.
I was just about to post the same thing!
What they said. My car is ready to rock, easy to drive, very fast, and nationally competitive.

Check out the car here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5559" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: MSM miata vs AP1 S2K -- opinions?

Post by Dan Shaw »

Hey guys,

Max, I got ya. There is an AP1 I'm looking at and an AP2 I was just presented with by a friend of mine as an option...both are within my budget. I'm working with around 13K (figure I can put down 3 and finance 10).

There are NC miatas for sale around that ballpark, but everyone I ask about this immediately says "S2000" without so much as a pause. Aside from that, I drove one at one of Mazda's zoom zoom events and was very underwhelmed. Felt too soft to me compared to the very precise feel of the NB. By comparison the S2000 is much closer in feel to what I am used to... memories of drifting Ron's S2k at El Toro's carousel make me grin ear to ear...

Jeff, I know you want ~17K and I'd feel I was insulting you to offer what I have. I can only swing 14k tops. Thank you for the offer and everyone pointing me that way! It looks like a very well set up car.

If my repairs to the NB tonight don't pan out the way I hope they will, then I'll start getting more serious. for now though thanks so much for your insight on all this. :) I like the NB MSM a lot but I have a feeling it won't be another Mazda for me this time unless I drive another NC and really hone in on it.
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Re: MSM miata vs AP1 S2K -- opinions?

Post by Leonard Cachola »

Dan Shaw wrote: There are NC miatas for sale around that ballpark, but everyone I ask about this immediately says "S2000" without so much as a pause. Aside from that, I drove one at one of Mazda's zoom zoom events and was very underwhelmed.
Yeah, stock NCs will do that. They're just too soft, though there is an '06 down in San Diego's SK2 that does very well (Scott Lewis). The only exception to that was the '07 MS-R and you missed one for sale locally under 14k by one week. Otherwise, the NC is a solid mod-platform and does very well once you start tinkering around.
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Re: MSM miata vs AP1 S2K -- opinions?

Post by Ron Tsumura »

Dan Shaw wrote:For those in the s2k camp, is the ap2 that much better for the class? Does the AP1 miss out or is it still pretty competitive? I have driven one at speed thanks to Ron Tsumura many years ago and fell in love with the car, but I'm not as familiar with it. Likewise reliability speaking does the car hold up well?
The only problem I have had with the S2000 is a ring and pinion failure and vibration from the inner CV joints. The car has about 100,000 miles.

Factory CV parts are expensive ($1000). Auto Zone sells a replacement ($100 to $200) but not sure it is stock legal.

Ring and pinion are about $400 for a rearend shop. You do the R&R.

Factory Honda parts seem to cost way more than Mazda? :cry:
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Re: MSM miata vs AP1 S2K -- opinions?

Post by Kurt Rahn »

Leonard Cachola wrote:There are NC miatas for sale around that ballpark, but everyone I ask about this immediately says "S2000" without so much as a pause. Aside from that, I drove one at one of Mazda's zoom zoom events and was very underwhelmed.
Yeah, stock NCs will do that. They're just too soft, though there is an '06 down in San Diego's SK2 that does very well (Scott Lewis). From what I've heard, the STR mods remedy the mushiness, for what it's worth.
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Re: MSM miata vs AP1 S2K -- opinions?

Post by Dan Shaw »

It's all good, looks like I may have a lead on a nice AP2 through a friend of mine. With any luck if my miata sells and I can get the loan for it, I'll be set. :)
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Re: MSM miata vs AP1 S2K -- opinions?

Post by John Stimson »

The MSM has been classed with the standard '99-05 Miatas for a long time. They may have been classed with the AP1 for a year or so, way back when the AP1 and AP2 were in different classes. The trouble with the MSM is gearing -- it has the lowest gearing of any Miata, and a lower redline than the non-turbo models, so redlline in 2nd gear is somewhere around 48 MPH on the stock tires. Great for really slow local courses, or super fast ones (it will do 65MPH in 3rd). If you can find a tire that fits, it may not be bad in SK2.

In B Stock on Hoosiers, the AP1 and AP2 are pretty close. The difference in gearing is the major factor, and can boost one model over the other depending on course minimum and maximum speeds. The CR model is of course the best, no matter what people claim about the differences being minimal. I would expect the AP1 to lose more when you put the same cars on street tires. There is a significant difference in wheel width (6.5/7.5 for the AP1, 7/8.5 for the AP2), and while Hoosiers are rigid enough to support themselves when crammed onto a skinny wheel, street tires aren't. Wide tires will be supported better on the AP2 than on the AP1. And the AP2's gearing will generally be better suited to the lower overall speed when driving on street tires.

If you can find an '07 MS-R, or find an '07 and convert it to an MS-R, within your budget, that would definitely be the hot ticket for SK2.
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Re: MSM miata vs AP1 S2K -- opinions?

Post by Charles Kim »

My $0.02:

I don't know many of you personally, so forgive me if I am a little ignorant with regard to the OP's driving skill and the competitive atmosphere of local classes.

As background, I've had an AP1 since 2003 and a CR since 2009. Started motorsport in 2008 and was 10th in BS this year (3rd fastest S2000 on West Course) and my co-driver was 2nd (Jeff Janzen). Wife won the BSL championship.

My intro post to Cal Club was here (along with a link to West Course run):
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=4141" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My perspective: don't worry about overall competitiveness of a vehicle, especially when it entails potential financial overextension. Focus on the driving skills and even if you don't look "competitive" in the results, you'll be in a better position overall. Spending money on vehicles to look more "competitive" on paper is all fuzzy math, IMHO.

As additional information: Jeff Janzen has been driving his bone stock (except for Gendron FSB) AP1 for years now. He hopped in our CR at Nats for the first time ever and was a little off the pace day 1, but was within thousandths of Jadrice on day 2. Good enough for 2nd overall and a thousand bucks of Hoosier/Honda goodies.

So even if an AP1 isn't as "competitive" as a CR, it will still teach you a lot. And those skills translate over when it's time for the big show.

If I were on a budget, I'd get an 00-01 AP1 (spring / swaybar balance less mushy) and a Gendron bar if R-comps are in the future or a Comptech V2 bar if staying on street tires. Then save the rest of the money for seat time, schools and AP2/CR co-drives at big events.

(P.S. Max, nice drive at Nats, I was working course and you looked really smooth).
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Re: MSM miata vs AP1 S2K -- opinions?

Post by Max Hayter »

Thanks Charles - be sure to introduce yourself next time you're in town.
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Re: MSM miata vs AP1 S2K -- opinions?

Post by John Stimson »

Good advice, Charles. People do get a little carried away with finding the ultimate competitive vehicle, especially when they're just starting out.

It may even be the case that a Boxster S is really the car to have in when you look at the SK1 eligible cars on street tires. But I think if you look, the Boxster, both versions of the S2000, and maybe some very unexpected cars have been victorious in SK1 at various events in L.A. and San Diego.

I think the MSM is worth a look. The main caveat is how you feel about the turbo response. Some people say it has terrible lag, some say it has immediate response. I can't say because I haven't driven one. You should try it yourself and see how you like it.

Or maybe look into a lower-mileage non-turbo NB.
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Re: MSM miata vs AP1 S2K -- opinions?

Post by James Yom »

If you want an S2000 and your primary focus is SK1, AP2 is definitely better than the AP1 due to tire availibility. Fast tires are available only in a 225 size for the AP1, but AP2s can fit 275s in the rear. I've campaigned an AP1 in SK1 (successfully), and the AP2 IMO is about .5 secs faster.
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Re: MSM miata vs AP1 S2K -- opinions?

Post by Charles Kim »

Has anyone campaigned a 275 street tire in the back?! I'd think that would make the stagger abnormally large. I run 235 / 255 in our local street tire class and have seen one guy with 245 front in Milwaukee. I've heard that a guy from Chicago runs 255f on the standard AP2 wheel.
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Re: MSM miata vs AP1 S2K -- opinions?

Post by John Stimson »

I run 225/255 on my AP2 and that works just fine. I would think 275s would be pinched and not perform well.
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Re: MSM miata vs AP1 S2K -- opinions?

Post by James Yom »

Back when the Azenis ruled the roost, I saw an AP2 running 245/275.I would look at the tiny 225 Azenis on the back of my S2000 and want to cry...

Ultimately, it depends on size availability of the "fast" tires. If one of the "fast" tires came in a 275, i'd run it.
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Re: MSM miata vs AP1 S2K -- opinions?

Post by Charles Kim »

Toyo R1Rs and Star Specs both have a 275 option that may work.
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