Cal Club grid process could use tweaking...

[James Yom]

So after having run Cal Club for a while, I find myself wondering why we do grid the way we do here?

-It's really confusing becuase most of the time I have no idea when my run sequence is, whether I am a single driver or a multi driver.

-many times, I end up coming back to grid in a different spot. It's annoying becuase then I have to run around and find my gear that was at a different grid spot, and I also have to maneuver around other people's stuff in my "new" spot.

-I have to get my car ready to go earlier if I'm at the end of a "line", becuase I have to slowly start creeping up the line as cars are sent ahead of me.

-many times, I think even the grid person loses the sequence of when the two driver cars should go because it is so confusing!!!

Why can't we use a simplified system of the way we do Nationals grid? We did it like that in Chicago region, and IMO it's a much better way to run grid.

We made one long grid, cars on both sides facing each other in a herring bone arrangement like this:

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

///////////////////////////////////////

when cars pull out for their runs, they pull forward and go down the middle of the lane towards the start. All the two driver cars would grid at the front of the line on one side. What this allows is for several things:
-we come back to our own grid spot.
-we don't have to run around looking for our stuff in grid in between runs.
-MUCH easier to identify when you will run, and how many cars before you have to go.
-easy to figure out what the proper sequencing should be for two driver cars (look halfway down the single driver line, and start the second drivers then).

this way MIGHT take up a lil more space, but at Fontana or El Toro, we're hardly space limited in paddock. if it starts to get cramped or we misjudged the amount of people in a heat, we can double up each lane (two cars in each lane, one behind the other). We're still coming back to our spot, and it's still easy to tell when we're going and in what sequence to the two drivers. We don't need to preassign grid spots (Milwaukee region did that, and it was super annoying). First come first serve.

Discuss

[Doug Kott]

Simply outlaw water sprayers, and keep your air gauge in the car. Then you wouldn't need jacks, etc.

[Ed Holley]

Why can't we use a simplified system of the way we do Nationals grid? We did it like that in Chicago region, and IMO it's a much better way to run grid.

We made one long grid, cars on both sides facing each other in a herring bone arrangement like this:

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

///////////////////////////////////////

when cars pull out for their runs, they pull forward and go down the middle of the lane towards the start. All the two driver cars would grid at the front of the line on one side. What this allows is for several things:
-we come back to our own grid spot.
-we don't have to run around looking for our stuff in grid in between runs.
-MUCH easier to identify when you will run, and how many cars before you have to go.
-easy to figure out what the proper sequencing should be for two driver cars (look halfway down the single driver line, and start the second drivers then).

this way MIGHT take up a lil more space, but at Fontana or El Toro, we're hardly space limited in paddock. if it starts to get cramped or we misjudged the amount of people in a heat, we can double up each lane (two cars in each lane, one behind the other). We're still coming back to our spot, and it's still easy to tell when we're going and in what sequence to the two drivers. We don't need to preassign grid spots (Milwaukee region did that, and it was super annoying). First come first serve.

Discuss

James: What you are describing is EXACTLY how it was done at El Toro last year. I believe it was for the Double Regional or Divisional in June. Why we don't do it at Fontana or other events is beyond me. Like you said about Chicago, it seemed to work very well at El Toro. That event at El Toro was one of my first events, so others will need to comment regarding why there and then but not elsewhere.

[George Schilling]

I, for one, appreciate your insight and would love to have a national style grid at every event. Setting up a national style pre-grid up takes a lot more time, planning, and coordinating with the course designer to be sure we have enough space allocated for the grid and to insure proper traffic flow for both days. Perhaps one of you guys could make that your work assignment for the practice and take care of the planning and set-up for us.

Or, provide us with the name of the volunteer who is willing to take on the task, preferably not "you can never use too much chalk" Schenker.

[Mike Simanyi]

Or, provide us with the name of the volunteer who is willing to take on the task, preferably not "you can never use too much chalk - I'll just dump a cubic yard here so you can all help spread it around with your cars" Schenker.

Fixed that for ya George.

[Rick Brown]

You can't really compare a Divisional or above grid to a local one. They are typically run by 3 or 4 people, not just one. We can and have used the National style setup, but as stated, it takes more work to set up properly and doing that the day of the event isn't real practical. Did you notice how hard it was for Stephen to get volunteers to do setup on Friday? I'm sure there were not enough to take the time to do the Nationals grid.

I think the issue with this weekend, at least in the 3rd group, was a grid person that either didn't have much experience or received bad training.

[James Yom]

running the grid like this only requires 2 people, not 3-4.

in terms of setup, all we need to do is instead of allocating grid space as a square, do it as a rectangle. There's a LOT of unused space either on the south side of our traditional non-hot area (just south of where we teched yesterday), and plenty of space for paddock on the north side, so we could push the whole paddock north. And El Toro??? Sky's the limit with how we'd like to set it up. You guys are making it way more complicated then it is. The end of the grid feeds into the start area, and the finish will just dump into the general direction of grid, so that competitors drive on either side of the fishbone to get to their area. K.I.S.S.


If I could, I would come to set it up and demonstrate it, but with my erratic schedule, I'm lucky to get a whole weekend off, so coming in earlier to set it up is not possible right now.

[George Schilling]

running the grid like this only requires 2 people, not 3-4.

in terms of setup, all we need to do is instead of allocating grid space as a square, do it as a rectangle. There's a LOT of unused space either on the south side of our traditional non-hot area (just south of where we teched yesterday), and plenty of space for paddock on the north side, so we could push the whole paddock north. And El Toro??? Sky's the limit with how we'd like to set it up. You guys are making it way more complicated then it is. The end of the grid feeds into the start area, and the finish will just dump into the general direction of grid, so that competitors drive on either side of the fishbone to get to their area. K.I.S.S.


If I could, I would come to set it up and demonstrate it, but with my erratic schedule, I'm lucky to get a whole weekend off, so coming in earlier to set it up is not possible right now.

The point is James is someone has to do it. I've set up both and a national style grid takes far longer to set up and requires more advance planning. If you don't have the time, tell me who does. We'd love to have the extra help.

[John Stimson]

I like James' suggestion.

D.C. Region also sets up an angled-parking style grid for their local events. It takes up more space, but I don't see why it would to take any longer to set up, or would require more than one person to run it. You wouldn't need to have people running around with stopwatches timing 5 minutes between runs -- CSCC doesn't do that with the current grid, and changing the position of the parking spaces wouldn't change that.

The advantages are that the whole line isn't delayed by one car in the middle of the line that isn't ready (causing the grid manager to start pulling cars from another line, which probably isn't ready either), and that the cars returning from course can get back to their grid position without having to wait for cars from the back of the line to move up and out.

Not having tools on grid isn't really an option. A bone stock car might not need anything more than a tire gauge, but I was using wrenches to adjust my swaybar on grid yesterday, I had water to drink, I had a hat to keep the sun off my head between runs...

[Tom Tanquary]

My only time as an event chair I really pushed to have a nationals style grid. I love how that works for all the above stated reasons. But the person designated to lay it out didn't show up in time. So it was as it usually is. IF..... the course designer can rustle up enough help I think we'd all like the chevron design better but in a labor shortage environment, the time is better spent making the course as good as it can be and not spent on setting up a better grid. I think it should be thought of as an open job under the course designer so anytime there is someone available and willing, have/let them do it.

[Q V]

If the only reason clubs aren't doing National Style grids is lack of a volunteer, I'd be happy to set one up @ the next event on Saturday morning (or Friday evening if they let me in). I probably can't make most Friday afternoon setups this quarter because of school. I just need the course designer to leave me a space & some small cones .

Only comment/concern: since there is no sheet/pre-assigned spots... some more work may be needed to coordinate the multi-drivers now.

[Reijo Silvennoinen]

We use a National style grid up here in Calgary otherwise even with very few people the "grid" becomes disorganized and frustrating ... but it takes a bit of coaxing to get it done as a part of course layout.

Mind you I also have it drawn in on the course map so everyone knows where it is and how it is set up. It can be a standard (repeating for events even though in a different location) layout drawing just indicating how the spots are arranged, how many etc. - a picture is a 1000 words as they say. Then re-use the grid drawing for each event (you might need maybe two different grid drawings for different layouts, pit locations etc.).

Once you use it a few times, I think simple and quick reminders might work for layout in the future and it becomes a habit.

With the grid map, more people could figure out how to lay it out (so you are not always dependent only on one or two people who can do it). James! Maybe you could do the std layout on paper?

And, you could even designate a special two-driver area ... which may be more difficult if you have a lot of them....but keep them together and then once you run through them once, you can repeat the routine for the next runs. Just take care for the 1st time through ... experienced person would be good here.

R

[George Schilling]

The best way to get a national style grid is to volunteer to be an event master and just do it. Really.......it's that simple.

[KJ Christopher]

I'd like to see more events run with a chevron pattern grid, possibly even becoming the standard for the region.

[Don Salyers]

I'll help, QV---nothing else to do...

Don

[Doug Teulie]

I'll help, QV---nothing else to do...

Don

One other thing about National style grid is you have more people walking in front of moving cars so everyone needs to pay more attention.

[Ed Holley]

The best way to get a national style grid is to volunteer to be an event master and just do it. Really.......it's that simple.

I'm certainly not ready for "Event Master" but, like QV and Don, I too will volunteer. Apple Valley to El Toro is a distance, but I'll step up. I would like to see us try this until we get it right for all the reasons stated. Better yet, while this is a hot topic, why not form a grid set-up sub-committee of permanent/semi-permanent volunteers like us who can communicate between events by email using grid set-up layouts as attachments AND the course designer and "event master" are always included as part of the sub-committee for a particular event so that we're all communicating before arriving for set-up.

[George Schilling]

The best way to get a national style grid is to volunteer to be an event master and just do it. Really.......it's that simple.

I'm certainly not ready for "Event Master" but, like QV and Don, I too will volunteer. Apple Valley to El Toro is a distance, but I'll step up. I would like to see us try this until we get it right for all the reasons stated. Better yet, while this is a hot topic, why not form a grid set-up sub-committee of permanent/semi-permanent volunteers like us who can communicate between events by email using grid set-up layouts as attachments AND the course designer and "event master" are always included as part of the sub-committee for a particular event so that we're all communicating before arriving for set-up.

So form a sub committee. Develop a plan on who'll design it, who'll set it up, how it will be managed, staffing requirements, etc. and present it to the event chair at for the next e-board event.

This is good. We need more folks taking an active role.

[Jayson Woodruff]

One other thing about National style grid is you have more people walking in front of moving cars so everyone needs to pay more attention.

But you also have less moving parts (like a line creeping up).

A few problems we've had in the past, like Rejio alluded to, is some people not understanding how it works and getting it mixed up. Novices tend to pull in the wrong direction, or return to a different spot. Even experianced drivers can pull in wrong, then everyone follows their lead and before you know it you have 30 cars facing the wrong way.

I guess the summary is the 'line' method isn't without merit. Most everyone knows how a line works.

BTW, there is significantly more walking to be done by the grid guy with a national style grid too.

Jay W

[Ed Holley]

So form a sub committee. Develop a plan on who'll design it, who'll set it up, how it will be managed, staffing requirements, etc. and present it to the event chair at for the next e-board event.

This is good. We need more folks taking an active role.

This "idea" needs to have someone in charge of the so-called "sub-committee" who HAS set-up and worked a National-style Grid so that he or she can train his or replacement over time. I'm gleaning that the course designer needs to be intimately involved. Being green, I'm not sure why that is the case other than the designer knowing "here, this is the Grid layout, with ingress and egress points marked....design accordingly.

Unlike in present day Washington D.C., leadership needs to be top-down, not bottom up. Several of us have volunteered to help make it happen. So, where's the leadership to grab those volunteers and say, "let's try this....here's your assignment!" ?

Ultimately, if those experienced in these things don't want to see it happen, it won't happen. I for one would never expend time and resources to " develop a plan on who'll design it, who'll set it up, how it will be managed, staffing requirements, etc. and present it to the event chair at for the next e-board event" if I did not know in advance that leadership was open to the idea.

[KJ Christopher]

Unlike in present day Washington D.C., leadership needs to be top-down, not bottom up. Several of us have volunteered to help make it happen. So, where's the leadership to grab those volunteers and say, "let's try this....here's your assignment!" ?

We don't have the man power to run the grid "nationals style". However, we can make it look the same and pull cars from the line in that fashion. All we need to do is make grid look like your typical chevron style parking lot:

------->
\ \ \ \ \ \
. ---------->
/ / / / / /
------->
\ \ \ \ \ \
. ---------->
/ / / / / /
------->

Formatting didn't work, but you get the picture.

[George Schilling]

This "idea" needs to have someone in charge of the so-called "sub-committee" who HAS set-up and worked a National-style Grid so that he or she can train his or replacement over time. I'm gleaning that the course designer needs to be intimately involved. Being green, I'm not sure why that is the case other than the designer knowing "here, this is the Grid layout, with ingress and egress points marked....design accordingly.

Unlike in present day Washington D.C., leadership needs to be top-down, not bottom up. Several of us have volunteered to help make it happen. So, where's the leadership to grab those volunteers and say, "let's try this....here's your assignment!" ?

Ultimately, if those experienced in these things don't want to see it happen, it won't happen. I for one would never expend time and resources to " develop a plan on who'll design it, who'll set it up, how it will be managed, staffing requirements, etc. and present it to the event chair at for the next e-board event" if I did not know in advance that leadership was open to the idea.

As someone who has put on more events than anyone else in the region the past three years including using both types of grid set ups, I personally don't endorse using a national style grid for local events so I'm not going to be the driver here. Doesn't mean I'm right. Before doing anything as EM, I carefully weigh out the options and try to foresee problems. Using my experience as a guide, my opinion is it's more trouble than it's worth.

So that said, those of you who want this, prove me wrong.

BTW, we did try using national style grids as the standard several years ago. There is a reason we no longer go to the trouble. It was a PITA.

So like I said folks, don't stand on the sidelines. If you want this to happen, get involved and push to get it done.

[Ed Holley]

We don't have the man power to run the grid "nationals style". However, we can make it look the same and pull cars from the line in that fashion. All we need to do is make grid look like your typical chevron style parking lot:

My reference to "Nationals-style" was only because others had used the term earlier. All I know is that whatever we used last June at El Toro seemed to work pretty well...I think.

[Rick Brown]

We don't have the man power to run the grid "nationals style". However, we can make it look the same and pull cars from the line in that fashion. All we need to do is make grid look like your typical chevron style parking lot:

My reference to "Nationals-style" was only because others had used the term earlier. All I know is that whatever we used last June at El Toro seemed to work pretty well...I think.

You'll be able to experience the fully staffed Nationals style grid at the San Diego tour in April. PSCC will do it at the next event in March. We have a Nationals grid expert, so if you want to learn how to do it, be there.

[Steve Lepper]

We don't have the man power to run the grid "nationals style". However, we can make it look the same and pull cars from the line in that fashion. All we need to do is make grid look like your typical chevron style parking lot:

------->
\ \ \ \ \ \
. ---------->
/ / / / / /
------->
\ \ \ \ \ \
. ---------->
/ / / / / /
------->

Formatting didn't work, but you get the picture.

I think this is a great first step. Allows drivers to have their same spot every time, and eliminates the missing driver and moving up issues. Plus, with our national events coming up it would be helpful for new folks to become familiar with that arrangement. With the next several events being at El Toro, we definitely have the acreage to experiment.

Only downside I can see is a bit more walking for the grid marshal...