So Fiat 500 is DOA ...

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Mako Koiwai
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So Fiat 500 is DOA ...

Postby Mako Koiwai » Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:49 am

Even with the Sport Package, and seats laid down to lower CG (a tiny amount).

I thought the fellow who drove one at Nationals was further prepping his for stock class with new shocks?

There have been a number of incidents of two wheeling BMW's. Any chance of them being re-considered as un-safe AX cars?

One of a number of two wheeling AX videos. Check out at 40 second point: http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=cWbG2SSAGhg&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DcWbG2SSAGhg

I've got a shot of Beverly or Toby on two wheels from Atwater a number of years ago. What's with BMW's ?!

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Re: So Fiat 500 is DOA ...

Postby Davin Swanson » Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:00 am

According to the results from Nationals, the Fiat 500 run in G stock was an Abarth. The Abarth is classed. All other 500s are excluded from stock. This has been the law of the land for months now (first published in the June Fastrack).

Non-Abarth 500s can run in STF, provided they are actually prepped for STF, not just a stock car registered to run STF. KJ clarified this detail yesterday.

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Re: So Fiat 500 is DOA ...

Postby Mako Koiwai » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:19 am

Ah, it does say Abarth in the results.

But how about those BMW's! ;)

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Re: So Fiat 500 is DOA ...

Postby Steve Ekstrand » Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:42 pm

Define prep? Seems like street tires would be enough.
To me I would think the SCCA would want to consider this car for stock classing with the caveat that it can only run in RTF as a stock prep. The 500 is a very popular car in our demographic. If there is a way to make it work I think its in our sports interests. From a safety standpoint, without hard data, I suspect you'd be better off with a base 500 on 180+ tires than a stock class springs in a shock clamped to the bumpstops with insane rebound Abarth on Hoosiers.
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Re: So Fiat 500 is DOA ...

Postby KJ Christopher » Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:59 pm

Steve Ekstrand wrote:Define prep? .

That one is a soft-ball. Prep is lowering the car enough that it fits the formula.
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Re: So Fiat 500 is DOA ...

Postby Steve Ekstrand » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:10 pm

I formula that needs to assure safety for fresh hoosiers on grippy concrete.

We need to get a base 500 out on good 180 tires in say Howard's hands on a good concrete surface and gather some data. RTF might be a perfect out. Time to write letters?
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Re: So Fiat 500 is DOA ...

Postby Marshall Grice » Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:59 am

KJ Christopher wrote:
Steve Ekstrand wrote:Define prep? .

That one is a soft-ball. Prep is lowering the car enough that it fits the formula.

or reducing the tire grip level low enough it fits the formula. ...which street tires do.

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Re: So Fiat 500 is DOA ...

Postby Mako Koiwai » Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:12 am

Would have been cool to have someone like Tom B give the stock Fiat 500 that we turned away an evaluation run ...

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Re: So Fiat 500 is DOA ...

Postby Jayson Woodruff » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:10 pm

I haven't been paying attention to roll over formulas, is tire grip actually part of it? (or is this just a commentary comment?)
Marshall Grice wrote:or reducing the tire grip level low enough it fits the formula. ...which street tires do.


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Re: So Fiat 500 is DOA ...

Postby Marshall Grice » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:39 am

Jayson Woodruff wrote:I haven't been paying attention to roll over formulas, is tire grip actually part of it? (or is this just a commentary comment?)
Marshall Grice wrote:or reducing the tire grip level low enough it fits the formula. ...which street tires do.


Jay W

the SSF number is the lateral acceleration (in g's) that results in 100% lateral weight transfer. So any lateral acceleration beyond the scca's limit of 1.3g's should result in 2-wheeling. 1.3g's is near the top end of what hoosiers are going to generate on a car like a fiat 500 (transient obviously, steady state will be far below that), but 1.1g's is more realistic of what a fiat 500 on street tires is likely to generate. considering the car has an SSF of 1.29 it has plenty of margin at stock ride height on street tires.

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Re: So Fiat 500 is DOA ...

Postby Kurt Rahn » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:23 am

Marshall Grice wrote:
Jayson Woodruff wrote:I haven't been paying attention to roll over formulas, is tire grip actually part of it? (or is this just a commentary comment?)
Marshall Grice wrote:or reducing the tire grip level low enough it fits the formula. ...which street tires do.


Jay W

the SSF number is the lateral acceleration (in g's) that results in 100% lateral weight transfer. So any lateral acceleration beyond the scca's limit of 1.3g's should result in 2-wheeling. 1.3g's is near the top end of what hoosiers are going to generate on a car like a fiat 500 (transient obviously, steady state will be far below that), but 1.1g's is more realistic of what a fiat 500 on street tires is likely to generate. considering the car has an SSF of 1.29 it has plenty of margin at stock ride height on street tires.

pwned :lol:
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Re: So Fiat 500 is DOA ...

Postby Bobby Beyer » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:39 am

Marshall Grice wrote:
Jayson Woodruff wrote:I haven't been paying attention to roll over formulas, is tire grip actually part of it? (or is this just a commentary comment?)
Marshall Grice wrote:or reducing the tire grip level low enough it fits the formula. ...which street tires do.


Jay W

the SSF number is the lateral acceleration (in g's) that results in 100% lateral weight transfer. So any lateral acceleration beyond the scca's limit of 1.3g's should result in 2-wheeling. 1.3g's is near the top end of what hoosiers are going to generate on a car like a fiat 500 (transient obviously, steady state will be far below that), but 1.1g's is more realistic of what a fiat 500 on street tires is likely to generate. considering the car has an SSF of 1.29 it has plenty of margin at stock ride height on street tires.



My GF 2 wheeled my Yaris(stock with crappy tires) at Fontana almost a year ago and I believe its SSF is 1.33 so I don't know if I would consider the Fiat safe even on street tires unless its been lowered quite a bit.
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Re: So Fiat 500 is DOA ...

Postby Toby Larsson » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:09 pm

Fiat 500 Abarth from this weekends 25 hour at Thunderhill }:)
(practice not race)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-0xbQF4 ... r_embedded

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Re: So Fiat 500 is DOA ...

Postby Kurt Rahn » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:06 am

Toby Larsson wrote:Fiat 500 Abarth from this weekends 25 hour at Thunderhill }:)
(practice not race)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-0xbQF4 ... r_embedded

I think that pretty much says it all...
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Re: So Fiat 500 is DOA ...

Postby Jason Isley BS RX8 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:25 am

Toby Larsson wrote:Fiat 500 Abarth from this weekends 25 hour at Thunderhill }:)
(practice not race)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-0xbQF4 ... r_embedded


:shock:

Unsafe at any speed:
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Re: So Fiat 500 is DOA ...

Postby Mako Koiwai » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:03 pm

Jay Leno Abarth test ... one inch lower then the 500 ... does a hand brake flip turn with no drama:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywmtrrFf4xo

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Re: So Fiat 500 is DOA ...

Postby Steve Ekstrand » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:52 pm

I don't know Mako... Car looks pretty difficult to control on the track...

http://youtu.be/flgLqKBzlgg
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Re: So Fiat 500 is DOA ...

Postby John Stimson » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:55 am

Handbrake turn means the rear wheels are locked up. Grip > slip, you know that, Mako!

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Re: So Fiat 500 is DOA ...

Postby Michael Smith » Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:32 pm

They look like fun:

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Re: So Fiat 500 is DOA ...

Postby Tom Denham » Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:19 pm

You should try to race this one Mako.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQh56geU0X8

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Re: So Fiat 500 is DOA ...

Postby Mako Koiwai » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:29 am

Doesn't widening the track basically produce the same result as lowering a car? So if the demand was there perhaps the SCCA could make an exemption to say allow half inch spacers instead of quarter inch spacers for a stock 500. Would that extra inch of width tip the equation enough to make the 500 legal ?

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Re: So Fiat 500 is DOA ...

Postby Jayson Woodruff » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:24 am

Mako Koiwai wrote:So if the demand was there perhaps the SCCA could make an exemption to say allow half inch spacers instead of quarter inch spacers for a stock 500.
I think you know the answer SCCA would give to allowing a single model a special allowance in stock class.

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Re: So Fiat 500 is DOA ...

Postby Julian Manolov » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:21 am

Seems the 500 Abarths don't need rear brakes either ... :lol:

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Re: So Fiat 500 is DOA ...

Postby Eric Clements » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:51 am

Mako Koiwai wrote:Would have been cool to have someone like Tom B give the stock Fiat 500 that we turned away an evaluation run ...

And when it rolls over tell them "sorry you can't run today"
A smooth driver is less likely to flip a car than a hack getting late in a slalom.

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Re: So Fiat 500 is DOA ...

Postby Bobby Beyer » Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:07 am

Julian Manolov wrote:Seems the 500 Abarths don't need rear brakes either ... :lol:


Not really a fair example, I think that car has 240+hp with a bunch of weight reduction done in the back and a crappy ABS system.

My German isn't all that great but here is the article.
http://www.sportauto.de/einzeltests/cartech-abarth-500-coppa-im-test-kraftzwerg-hebt-in-andere-sphaeren-ab-4297815.html
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