April Fastrack

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

i would argue that both would be faster with using the same static camber setting and stiffer bars than the same bars and more static camber.

I know you have a lot of experience with the shortcomings of a stock class car and its suspension. ;)

You argue it all you want... As you hop into your stiff car with lots of camber. The point is in an "attempt" to help some cars with camber they are overlooking others. How is this an improvement for all?

[Marshall Grice]

I know you have a lot of experience with the shortcomings of a stock class car and its suspension. ;)

You argue it all you want... As you hop into your stiff car with lots of camber. The point is in an "attempt" to help some cars with camber they are overlooking others. How is this an improvement for all?

whatever road racer...

my stiff car with lots of camber also has struts and r-comps. so the point is street tires and double a-arms are not going to be camber challenged.

were you planning some sort of stock class return that this change ruins or what? you got so bored with the current stock class rules you left the sport all together.

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

whatever road racer...

my stiff car with lots of camber also has struts and r-comps. so the point is street tires and double a-arms are not going to be camber challenged.

were you planning some sort of stock class return that this change ruins or what? you got so bored with the current stock class rules you left the sport all together.

So you think -.75 to -1 on a street tire C4 (a common range) is enough? Pretty sure Tom, and every SP C4 driver, had offset bushings along with stiffer springs and big bars. ;)

I could be making another run at stock, and I sure would prefer to come back to the current set of rules over ST Lite. I left because I got an opportunity to do something else, I was perfectly happy with my stock class car, and would be again.

[Marshall Grice]

So you think -.75 to -1 on a street tire C4 (a common range) is enough? Pretty sure Tom, and every SP C4 driver, had offset bushings along with stiffer springs and big bars. ;)

I could be making another run at stock, and I sure would prefer to come back to the current set of rules over ST Lite. I left because I got an opportunity to do something else, I was perfectly happy with my stock class car, and would be again.

we could talk about C4's on r-comps but how about we take a more relevant example and consider a car that isn't on the border of extinction. how much camber did your rx8 have?

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

we could talk about C4's on r-comps but how about we take a more relevant example and consider a car that isn't on the border of extinction. how much camber did your rx8 have?

-1.4 in the front. In STX trim -3. Hard to imagine that with the same tires, less spring, and sitting taller it will run better with less camber. Give everyone a camber allowance or leave it alone.

[Kurt Rahn]

I'm just pissed I have to change my class plates again

[Kurt Rahn]

Wow, I just actually read the whole thing...they just blew that s%#t up! But I agree with Jason: pull the band aid and don't string it along for two years. There's enough time that nobody's going to be caught out for 2014.

[Sean Fenstermacher]

Can someone provide an educated guess for reasoning behind the wheel diameter allowance proposal?

The rest of the proposed allowances seem to be about leveling the the playing field for McStrut cars, save $$$ on tire wear, and reduce the need for uber-fancy shocks.

The wheel diameter allowance has me scratching my head. Doesn't this tosses in a whole mess of new variables into play (gearing, ride height, available sizes, etc..) that would make even classing even more difficult?

I would rather see wheel width allowance vs diameter, personally. It would widen the selection of allowable wheels (maybe open the door for sponsors?) and a bit more stretch to keep the tires happier (would fall in line with the camber and sway bar allowances, I guess).

[Kathy Teulie]

Here are my thoughts:
1) I am extremely happy about going to street tires for Stock (Street). I would prefer to have it at 140 or slightly higher for all years though.
2) I think camber plates are a good thing, especially if I ever raced my Mini. I don't think it applies to the S2000.
3) I am happy about the rear sway bar change.
4) I have mixed feelings about the wheel change. It would be nice to go up a size so I can get the correct size tires for my car. I am not happy about my proper offset & expensive wheels becoming un-competitive and will therefore have to buy new wheels. Then I have to do a lot of research finding the best wheel. I know that some people enjoy the research part though.
5) I am not happy about the shock change since I have remotes. I really don't want to remove my nice expensive shocks that are perfectly good. Then I have to buy new expensive shocks and then spend the time tuning and installing them.
6) If I was starting from scratch with a new car, all this wouldn't be a problem. I like my S2000 though and would prefer to race that car.

Kathy

[Marshall Grice]

Can someone provide an educated guess for reasoning behind the wheel diameter allowance proposal?

i'm guessing it's aimed at the newer sports cars that come with 19+ inch wheels and don't have any good tires in those diameters. like any of the SS guys are going to run this new class anyways...

[KJ Christopher]

Can someone provide an educated guess for reasoning behind the wheel diameter allowance proposal?

i'm guessing it's aimed at the newer sports cars that come with 19+ inch wheels and don't have any good tires in those diameters. like any of the SS guys are going to run this new class anyways...

More so smaller diameter stock wheels that don't have a good inventory of offerings, or aren't expected to have a good inventory of offerings in the coming years. Remember that most of this proposal is also (mostly?) addressing coming issues due to manufacturer's directions. (Car manufacturer's only making McStrut cars with zero front camber adjustments; tire manufacturer's thinning offerings for smaller diameter wheel sizes.)

[Doug Teulie]

Yes wheel dia and tire selection can make or brake you.

13s have no options for good street tires unless you have them custom made or import them (and you can't use non DOT).
13s have several R-comps. Cars with 13s really need to run on race tires.

14s have one size (185) and one tire that fits most cars. 14s have one 195 that fits the BMW 325 and is close for all the other cars (Honda, Toyota, VW, and mazda miata) that have 14s.
14s have a few R-comps.

15s have many options in both DOT street and DOT R.

16s have a few usable street tires options but 17s have more. Some models of cars came with 16s and then 17s. 17s have the advantage. Because Stock will not allow the change from year to year many cars are stuck using 16s when the next model year had 17s. In the case of the AP1 S2000 the offset is difficult to get in a 17 that is the same width and stagger as the 16 so it would be better to be able to just use the wider OEM 17 that came on the 2004+ AP2. If the AP2 wheel is not an option on the AP2 then $$$$$ custom wheels are the way to go.

17s have many options in both DOT street and DOT R.

I don't know about 18s, 19s, 20s, 22s, and up.

[Bill Martin]

Before anyone turns their world upside down, remember...it's just a proposal at this point.

[Doug Teulie]

Before anyone turns their world upside down, remember...it's just a proposal at this point.

The funny thing is any time a rule change is passed (I know this a proposal) someone figures out a way to go faster and more money is spent doing it. Racing is like that. Most rule changes over the past 10 years have tended to turn my competitors away because it forced them to get different cars or rebuild the car they just built. When faced with a class change or spending another 5K just to keep in the game some people (like most of my competitors) choose Golf over racing as the solution. That said street class is a step in the better direction however some of the proposed change is uncomfortable for folks who run stock and have an investment. Kathy wants me to purchase a new car for her to race now. What should I get given the possibility of a class shift? I could end up spending $30,000 to save money on tires.

[Vincent Wong]

I thought the concept is good, but there are a few things I don't like.

1. Camber allowance appears to apply only to McPherson strut suspension, and not A-arm suspension. (Good for my BMW, bad for my Audi)
2. Minimum treadwear stays the same at 140 through 2015 and beyond.
3. Like Sean said, open up wheel width rather than wheel diameter. This may also allow some RWD cars that come with staggered wheels to run square wheels.

[Vincent Wong]

Before anyone turns their world upside down, remember...it's just a proposal at this point.

The funny thing is any time a rule change is passed (I know this a proposal) someone figures out a way to go faster and more money is spent doing it. Racing is like that. Most rule changes over the past 10 years have tended to turn my competitors away because it forced them to get different cars or rebuild the car they just built. When faced with a class change or spending another 5K just to keep in the game some people (like most of my competitors) choose Golf over racing as the solution.

Maybe it's because you race a VW Scirocco, the first thought that came to my mind when I read you last sentence, I thought you meant people choose the VW Golf.

[Doug Teulie]

Before anyone turns their world upside down, remember...it's just a proposal at this point.

The funny thing is any time a rule change is passed (I know this a proposal) someone figures out a way to go faster and more money is spent doing it. Racing is like that. Most rule changes over the past 10 years have tended to turn my competitors away because it forced them to get different cars or rebuild the car they just built. When faced with a class change or spending another 5K just to keep in the game some people (like most of my competitors) choose Golf over racing as the solution.

Maybe it's because you race a VW Scirocco, the first thought that came to my mind when I read you last sentence, I thought you meant people choose the VW Golf.

I thought the same thing!!! But no I meant the sport with clubs.

[Mike Yanase]

Here are my thoughts:
1) I am extremely happy about going to street tires for Stock (Street). I would prefer to have it at 140 or slightly higher for all years though.
2) I think camber plates are a good thing, especially if I ever raced my Mini. I don't think it applies to the S2000.
3) I am happy about the rear sway bar change.
4) I have mixed feelings about the wheel change. It would be nice to go up a size so I can get the correct size tires for my car. I am not happy about my proper offset & expensive wheels becoming un-competitive and will therefore have to buy new wheels. Then I have to do a lot of research finding the best wheel. I know that some people enjoy the research part though.
5) I am not happy about the shock change since I have remotes. I really don't want to remove my nice expensive shocks that are perfectly good. Then I have to buy new expensive shocks and then spend the time tuning and installing them.
6) If I was starting from scratch with a new car, all this wouldn't be a problem. I like my S2000 though and would prefer to race that car.

Kathy

i agree with kathy most on #5 in regards to the remote reservoir. she is pretty much on point with how i feel about it

[Bobby Beyer]

Here are my thoughts:
1) I am extremely happy about going to street tires for Stock (Street). I would prefer to have it at 140 or slightly higher for all years though.
2) I think camber plates are a good thing, especially if I ever raced my Mini. I don't think it applies to the S2000.
3) I am happy about the rear sway bar change.
4) I have mixed feelings about the wheel change. It would be nice to go up a size so I can get the correct size tires for my car. I am not happy about my proper offset & expensive wheels becoming un-competitive and will therefore have to buy new wheels. Then I have to do a lot of research finding the best wheel. I know that some people enjoy the research part though.
5) I am not happy about the shock change since I have remotes. I really don't want to remove my nice expensive shocks that are perfectly good. Then I have to buy new expensive shocks and then spend the time tuning and installing them.
6) If I was starting from scratch with a new car, all this wouldn't be a problem. I like my S2000 though and would prefer to race that car.

Kathy

1) Street tires aren't a bad thing, but aren't a help for certain classes - SS,AS,FS
2) I don't like the camber plate allowance since it opens the door to other potential issues, ride height, etc, plus you create a haves/have nots with people who can't get camber plates aren't allowed additional caster according to the rules. Yes it sucks your car can't get the allowed camber but I think it would be better to put a spec camber allowance in so you don't see guys cranking out -4-5 degrees of camber where one guy can only get -2.
3) This is the one I have the most issues with, what stops someone from going super large on swaybars and gaining the roll stiffness of a ST car, this and the camber rule is where the lines of street/street touring start to really blur. I can see quite a bit of sway mounts and some creative engineering to make giant ARBs fit so people can get the perceived/potential gain.
4) I don't think the wheel change is a big deal, 1" doesn't really save anything, but it starts to create the lingering effect. Why should I care that the guy with the 20+yo car can't buy 13" competitive street tires? Maybe its not a bad idea to just let some cars die off or move up in classes. Its probably a good move for the corvettes and other SS/AS/FS cars but I don't think there will be a move en mass to the Street class anyway.
5) I don't get this rule, remote reservoirs don't necessarily provide a benefit and at worse are much more difficult to tune, on paper it makes it sound like you can buy cheap shocks but in reality that probably isn't the case. Also this rule does nothing to stop someone with MR or activeshocks from cracking open the controller and modifying the code to create something no custom adjustable shock can match.
6) If I was starting from scratch with a new car, all this wouldn't be a problem. This is probably the case for most competitors.

[KJ Christopher]

Before anyone turns their world upside down, remember...it's just a proposal at this point.

The funny thing is any time a rule change is passed (I know this a proposal) someone figures out a way to go faster and more money is spent doing it. Racing is like that. Most rule changes over the past 10 years have tended to turn my competitors away because it forced them to get different cars or rebuild the car they just built. When faced with a class change or spending another 5K just to keep in the game some people (like most of my competitors) choose Golf over racing as the solution. That said street class is a step in the better direction however some of the proposed change is uncomfortable for folks who run stock and have an investment. Kathy wants me to purchase a new car for her to race now. What should I get given the possibility of a class shift? I could end up spending $30,000 to save money on tires.

E36 M3?

[Davin Swanson]

all in all, sounds like a fair trade for giving up the R-comps. other than pissing off everyone that already owns the blingy shocks.

The people who've been running R-comps on blingy shocks still have a place to play in limited prep SP classes if they want to keep doing it! I actually love this part of the proposal. Being new to the sport I always thought that it was strange that the stock classes allowed R-comp tires by default, and the people with "stock" cars who wanted to run street tires were the red-headed stepchildren who ran in special local classes. It makes much more sense to me that the entry-level class allows street tires by default, and that there be a special class for those people who wanted to run R-comps on their "stock" cars.

Given the "dual-use" philosophy of the proposed street classes, I also think there should be a rule that DSQs anyone who trailers their car to the event. }:)

[Sebastian Rios]

I hope that the diff cover rule doesn't go through, but only because it will make Fair even more unbearable.

[Jonathan Lugod]

I hope that the diff cover rule doesn't go through, but only because it will make Fair even more unbearable.

are we in the sandbox?

[Sebastian Rios]

Not really, SCCAForums, Mustang forums, the entire WWW

[Sean Fenstermacher]

Yes wheel dia and tire selection can make or brake you.

13s have no options for good street tires unless you have them custom made or import them (and you can't use non DOT).
13s have several R-comps. Cars with 13s really need to run on race tires.

14s have one size (185) and one tire that fits most cars. 14s have one 195 that fits the BMW 325 and is close for all the other cars (Honda, Toyota, VW, and mazda miata) that have 14s.
14s have a few R-comps.

15s have many options in both DOT street and DOT R.

16s have a few usable street tires options but 17s have more. Some models of cars came with 16s and then 17s. 17s have the advantage. Because Stock will not allow the change from year to year many cars are stuck using 16s when the next model year had 17s. In the case of the AP1 S2000 the offset is difficult to get in a 17 that is the same width and stagger as the 16 so it would be better to be able to just use the wider OEM 17 that came on the 2004+ AP2. If the AP2 wheel is not an option on the AP2 then $$$$$ custom wheels are the way to go.

17s have many options in both DOT street and DOT R.

I don't know about 18s, 19s, 20s, 22s, and up.

If this is really the reason, then why don't they just tackle the issue head on and allow everyone to play with a good tires?
The whole point is to go fast and have fun, right?

Vehicles Equipped with 13",14" = allow to up size to 15"
Vehicles Equipped with 17/18" = no allowance
Vehicles Equipped with 16" = allow up size to 17" (except Leonard!! LOL)
Vehicles Equipped with 19s = allow downsize 18"
Vehicles Equipped with +19s = allow downsize to 19"

Toss in an acceptable allowance for wheel width adjustment (+/-0.5" or 1") to open up the selection of off the shelf aftermarket wheels.

I think a realistic push in a one direction would better allow for more even and consistant classing for fully prepped cars.
Doesn't anyone else think that allowing for wheel changes in both directions kinda opens the door for having to very course dependent set-ups or potential inconsistencies with regards to class balance due to gearing/tire/wheel choice?

One of the things that appeal most about RT Stock (Street) class to me is the simplicity and lower level of investment.

The new camber rules complicate things, but I see are needed for McStrut cars. There should be a limit on how much neg. camber is allowed though, IMO.
The 2 sway bar thing is interesting....opens the door for BBSS (Big-Bar-Soft-Spring) tuning!! (just like NASCAR!!)