April Fastrack

General discussions about Solo

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Marshall Grice
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Re: April Fastrack

Post by Marshall Grice »

Bobby Beyer wrote: I just don't feel it would be fair to some competitors if your car can get ton of negative camber and others can't. A spec camber allowance which would be easily policeable and allow some give while still keeping the streetability aspect in mind.
the fair-ness should be address in the classing. if one car in a class is able to get a million degrees of negative camber, bump it up the classing structure until it finds parity.

I agree that having a spec camber value would be easy enough to measure, but to ensure compliance you'd have to measure every car after every run. not exactly practical. by specifying allowed parts you don't have to check after every run unless you see one of your competitors in grid swapping hard parts. much easier to police.
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Doug Teulie
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Re: April Fastrack

Post by Doug Teulie »

I think the "camber spec" will be controlled with the way it is done. No cutting of towers and no drilling of holes and possibly no top plate assembly would limit the amount and prevent damage to the cars. I agree that some cars will get faster and others will not. Street class (if passed) will most likely need to shift all the cars to different classes (or think of it as the class mates will be different). Pax is going to look different. Solo is going to be different.

I think the street class plates, shocks (I think shocks will be expensive), bars and possibly the wheels will appeal to drivers that like to tinker and have a used car (or a 3 year old car). I don't see someone who has never auto-xed showing up with a new car with bars, plates and shocks installed. I can see Auto-xers getting new cars (20K-50K+) and then spending $5,000 (or much more) to set up the car just for solo in street class. The advantage is that dedicated auto-xers will have a car that works better, not need to change wheels at the track, not cord as quickly, have the chance to tinker with setup, and have more fun racing the car they have. The disadvantage is that people outside of SCCA will not have a car that is configured or not configured properly for street class and they will have no place to run without investing in Solo (I am not sure anything changed). SK1 and SK2 was different in that shocks were the only real investment other than tires. The entry bar was not that high (SK was a popular local class not SCCA national).

I thought that RT was going to expand to:
RTA, RTB, RTC, RTD, RTE.... with no PAX and add camber plates. That would be an easier transition. I think 13s and 14s should be replaced with 15s (OEM sizes if possible). I also think that you should be able up date or back date OEM wheels from trim or model years.
Doug T
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Ira Cruz
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Re: April Fastrack

Post by Ira Cruz »

One thing to think about when thinking, XYZ cars should just not be supported is, We need more participation at the local level at all the regions in the country. SoCal is great but in some regions only 40 cars show up and 35 of them don’t run at nationals. They all run PAX and need a class to get a PAX. Shutting down the other 35 drivers that are having fun would kill the event for everyone. For years SCCA has focused on Nationals but forgotten that the local family part of the sport is just as important. Without the family helping setup and working the event none of the national level drivers would have the chance to practice at an event close to home. Some cars are just fun to drive and Auto-x is a place to become a better driver and have fun. Now SCCA sees numbers dropping, well.... it is wake up time, we need participants, start caring.[/quote]


+10 :!:
Ira Cruz
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Re: April Fastrack

Post by Ira Cruz »

Doug Teulie wrote:I think the "camber spec" will be controlled with the way it is done. No cutting of towers and no drilling of holes and possibly no top plate assembly would limit the amount and prevent damage to the cars. I agree that some cars will get faster and others will not. Street class (if passed) will most likely need to shift all the cars to different classes (or think of it as the class mates will be different). Pax is going to look different. Solo is going to be different.

I think the street class plates, shocks (I think shocks will be expensive), bars and possibly the wheels will appeal to drivers that like to tinker and have a used car (or a 3 year old car). I don't see someone who has never auto-xed showing up with a new car with bars, plates and shocks installed. I can see Auto-xers getting new cars (20K-50K+) and then spending $5,000 (or much more) to set up the car just for solo in street class. The advantage is that dedicated auto-xers will have a car that works better, not need to change wheels at the track, not cord as quickly, have the chance to tinker with setup, and have more fun racing the car they have. The disadvantage is that people outside of SCCA will not have a car that is configured or not configured properly for street class and they will have no place to run without investing in Solo (I am not sure anything changed). SK1 and SK2 was different in that shocks were the only real investment other than tires. The entry bar was not that high (SK was a popular local class not SCCA national).

I thought that RT was going to expand to:
RTA, RTB, RTC, RTD, RTE.... with no PAX and add camber plates. That would be an easier transition. I think 13s and 14s should be replaced with 15s (OEM sizes if possible). I also think that you should be able up date or back date OEM wheels from trim or model years.
I propose that Doug be our official spokesman to SEB!! ;)
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Sean Fenstermacher
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Re: April Fastrack

Post by Sean Fenstermacher »

Doug Teulie wrote:I think the street class plates, shocks (I think shocks will be expensive), bars and possibly the wheels will appeal to drivers that like to tinker and have a used car (or a 3 year old car). I don't see someone who has never auto-xed showing up with a new car with bars, plates and shocks installed. I can see Auto-xers getting new cars (20K-50K+) and then spending $5,000 (or much more) to set up the car just for solo in street class. The advantage is that dedicated auto-xers will have a car that works better, not need to change wheels at the track, not cord as quickly, have the chance to tinker with setup, and have more fun racing the car they have. The disadvantage is that people outside of SCCA will not have a car that is configured or not configured properly for street class and they will have no place to run without investing in Solo (I am not sure anything changed). SK1 and SK2 was different in that shocks were the only real investment other than tires. The entry bar was not that high (SK was a popular local class not SCCA national).
Prep levels are still relatively low, IMO.
If you're a A-arm car, you get to add 1 more bar ($150-200ish?).
If your a McStrut car, you get ad plates for front ($400ish), 1 more bar ($150-200ish), and camber bolts for front ($20-40ish), but get less front tire wear than before and possibly make that set of sticky street tires ($600-900) last a whole season or more!

If someone tells me I could spend $600-700 additional in prep, but extend my tire life by half a season or more, my response is, "Take my money, please!!".

Also, I think that for new people with newer cars that have McStruts, the ability to add a relatively lower costs and easy to install option to the car (camber bolts, for example) and greatly reduce their front tire wear would make the sport more appealing and the future running costs because of tire wear less intimidating.
Justin Tsang
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Re: April Fastrack

Post by Justin Tsang »

Sebastian Rios wrote:I hope that the diff cover rule doesn't go through, but only because it will make Fair even more unbearable.
Lol, i thought the rule is Fair tho :twisted:
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Vincent Wong
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Re: April Fastrack

Post by Vincent Wong »

Bobby Beyer wrote:Not an LTD but close enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mAbswOf ... r_embedded
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/10/02/meet ... -chevelle/

Hmm that place looks familiar.

Sorry about the off topic, I just couldn't resist.
Very cool....but one problem. That wasn't an SCCA event!!! SCCA rules don't apply there.
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Ed Holley
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Re: April Fastrack

Post by Ed Holley »

Ira Cruz wrote:I propose that Doug be our official spokesman to SEB!! ;)
On that very subject, I'm seeking opinion from those more wise...
Would it be more effective to draft a collective letter to the SEB that essentially has multiple "signors", or will it be better to have individual input? I'm thinking that if a multiple signor letter could be created, along with a sentence referencing that "we have discussed the proposal among our forum members and recommend the following for consideration" MIGHT be easier for the SEB to react to. NO?
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Jason Isley BS RX8
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Re: April Fastrack

Post by Jason Isley BS RX8 »

Ed Holley wrote:
Ira Cruz wrote:I propose that Doug be our official spokesman to SEB!! ;)
On that very subject, I'm seeking opinion from those more wise...
Would it be more effective to draft a collective letter to the SEB that essentially has multiple "signors", or will it be better to have individual input? I'm thinking that if a multiple signor letter could be created, along with a sentence referencing that "we have discussed the proposal among our forum members and recommend the following for consideration" MIGHT be easier for the SEB to react to. NO?
Well thought out individual letters always hold more weight. A draft letter, no matter the quality, wont be seen as multiple input from members - same applies to multiple people sending in the same letter. If you did not care enough to take the time to email your original thoughts it wont be seen as that important.
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Ed Holley
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Re: April Fastrack

Post by Ed Holley »

Jason Isley BS RX8 wrote:
Ed Holley wrote:
Ira Cruz wrote:I propose that Doug be our official spokesman to SEB!! ;)
On that very subject, I'm seeking opinion from those more wise...
Would it be more effective to draft a collective letter to the SEB that essentially has multiple "signors", or will it be better to have individual input? I'm thinking that if a multiple signor letter could be created, along with a sentence referencing that "we have discussed the proposal among our forum members and recommend the following for consideration" MIGHT be easier for the SEB to react to. NO?
Well thought out individual letters always hold more weight. A draft letter, no matter the quality, wont be seen as multiple input from members - same applies to multiple people sending in the same letter. If you did not care enough to take the time to email your original thoughts it wont be seen as that important.
Thank you Jason. :thumbup:
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Anthony Munoz
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Re: April Fastrack

Post by Anthony Munoz »

Sean Fenstermacher wrote:
Doug Teulie wrote:I think the street class plates, shocks (I think shocks will be expensive), bars and possibly the wheels will appeal to drivers that like to tinker and have a used car (or a 3 year old car). I don't see someone who has never auto-xed showing up with a new car with bars, plates and shocks installed. I can see Auto-xers getting new cars (20K-50K+) and then spending $5,000 (or much more) to set up the car just for solo in street class. The advantage is that dedicated auto-xers will have a car that works better, not need to change wheels at the track, not cord as quickly, have the chance to tinker with setup, and have more fun racing the car they have. The disadvantage is that people outside of SCCA will not have a car that is configured or not configured properly for street class and they will have no place to run without investing in Solo (I am not sure anything changed). SK1 and SK2 was different in that shocks were the only real investment other than tires. The entry bar was not that high (SK was a popular local class not SCCA national).
Prep levels are still relatively low, IMO.
If you're a A-arm car, you get to add 1 more bar ($150-200ish?).
Spot-on! :thumbup:

Tony
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Julian Manolov
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Re: April Fastrack

Post by Julian Manolov »

About the dampers, the funny thing is that some manufacturers use remote reservoirs because it is cheaper/easier designing it that way.
Ban the reservoirs so people start buying uber expensive dampers which fit everything in the same housing? :shock:
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Bobby Beyer
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Re: April Fastrack

Post by Bobby Beyer »

exactly ho much do custom sway bar mounts and a1.5" speedway bar cost?
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Rick Brown
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Re: April Fastrack

Post by Rick Brown »

Not even sure why I'm reading this thread, but it makes me glad that for my entire 41 years of autocrossing I've never competed in a stock class..... ;)
Since light is faster than sound...many people look bright until they speak...
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Robert Puertas
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Re: April Fastrack

Post by Robert Puertas »

I'm pretty sure there isn't an internal reservoir double adjustable shock on the market that fits inside the OEM Lotus Elise spring...
OTOH, Elise owners can probably afford to have multiple sets of shocks they can bring to every event.
}:)
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Doug Teulie
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Re: April Fastrack

Post by Doug Teulie »

This is where my eyes blur. Will all the same popular cars start running in all the different classes with just wheel changes?

Street has suspension modifications (bars, plates and $5000 shocks without reservoirs)
Street has DOT extreme performance tires (200)
Street has wheel dia allowances.
Street has no motor modification

ST has suspension modifications (bars, plates, ride height springs and $5000 shocks with or without reservoirs)
ST has DOT extreme performance tires (140)
ST has wheel allowances on width.
ST has more stuff.
ST has no motor modification “wink wink.”
ST has trailers and tow trucks.

The class formality known as Stock/ Street SP has suspension modifications (bar and $5000 shocks with or without reservoirs)
The class formality known as Stock/ Street SP has R comp tires
The class formality known as Stock/ Street has no wheel allowances.
The class formality known as Stock/ Street has no motor modification

SP has suspension modifications (bars, plates, ride height springs and $5000 shocks with or without reservoirs)
SP has R comp tires
SP has no wheel restriction.
SP has lsd.
SP has more stuff.
SP has no motor modification “wink wink.” (you spend about $2-3000 and get 3-50 HP)
SP has trailers and tow trucks.

SM has suspension modifications (bars, plates, ride height springs and $5000 shocks with reservoirs)
SM has R comp tires
SM has no wheel restriction.
SM has more stuff.
SM has Major motor swap and modification.
SM has Spend More trailers and tow trucks.
Doug T
PSCC CSCC #99 /SCNAX SD #151 LT Points 23,600.
TEAM DHE/FAST 1976 KARMANN 8V FSP MK1 SILVER SCIROCCO
TEAM DHE/FAST 1980 KARMANN 8V FSP MK1 RED SCIROCCO
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Kurt Rahn
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Re: April Fastrack

Post by Kurt Rahn »

Bill Martin wrote:
Kurt Rahn wrote:
Bill Martin wrote:I could end up spending $30,000 to save money on tires.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm pretty sure I didn't write that. But now that you mention it...

LOL, I left one of the quote things in there by mistake
==============
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David Barrish
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Re: April Fastrack

Post by David Barrish »

Doug,

add "STOCK SPRINGS and spring hats", at no cost, in Stock. ( with plates )
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Doug Teulie
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Re: April Fastrack

Post by Doug Teulie »

David Barrish wrote:Doug,

add "STOCK SPRINGS and spring hats", at no cost, in Stock. ( with plates )
I am thinking stock 1985 GTi with 15s and camber plates in street class would be fantastic and fun!
Doug T
PSCC CSCC #99 /SCNAX SD #151 LT Points 23,600.
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TEAM DHE/FAST 1980 KARMANN 8V FSP MK1 RED SCIROCCO
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David Barrish
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Re: April Fastrack

Post by David Barrish »

1984, shorter final drive. }:)
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Leonard Cachola
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Re: April Fastrack

Post by Leonard Cachola »

Something that seems to have been lost in this discussion is the concept of a local stock street tire class - one with more restrictions than the proposed 'Street' class. I was re-reading Heyward's e-mail and noticed that this could be done as well - let's say, revive the old SK1 and SK2 rules OR even have SK1 and SK2 be for cars with zero mods from the factory (other than tires). Another approach would be zero mods for street tire stock cars for Novice class only (not proposing ideas, just throwing out ideas). Comments?
~Leonard Cachola
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Vincent Wong
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Re: April Fastrack

Post by Vincent Wong »

Leonard Cachola wrote:have SK1 and SK2 be for cars with zero mods from the factory (other than tires)
If you asked me 2 months ago, I wouldn't be opposed to this. But now, I would because I have to undo a stock legal mod. :D
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Doug Teulie
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Re: April Fastrack

Post by Doug Teulie »

Vincent Wong wrote:
Leonard Cachola wrote:have SK1 and SK2 be for cars with zero mods from the factory (other than tires)
If you asked me 2 months ago, I wouldn't be opposed to this. But now, I would because I have to undo a stock legal mod. :D
What about the traction control in Street? That is one more mod that may make folks not want to race a new car. "I need to flash my ECU for Sunday and then take my car to dealer for an oil change (or smog) on Monday.

SK would be the place for stock cars.
Doug T
PSCC CSCC #99 /SCNAX SD #151 LT Points 23,600.
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TEAM DHE/FAST 1980 KARMANN 8V FSP MK1 RED SCIROCCO
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Sebastian Rios
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Re: April Fastrack

Post by Sebastian Rios »

Rich Grunenwald summed up how I feel perfectly with this post on another forum.
Rich Grunenwald wrote: Today, it's a pretty straightforward conversation:

Newbie - "Wow, you are fast"
'Shoe - "Thanks. These Hoosiers are the bomb"
Newbie - "How much are the Hoosiers?
'Shoe - "About $275 to $350 a piece depending on the size. I use about (pick your number) tires a year, and rotate them"
Newbie - "Hmmm...kind of pricey. Do I have to run Hoosiers?"
'Shoe - "No but they are by far the best. You could run the RT class and probably get two years on a set of Dunlops or Hankooks running locals, and they are cheaper to boot"
Newbie - "Really? Tell me about that...."

Underlying message - buy a good set of tires, and you can be in the ballpark. Simple. Any newbie can understand it.

Under the proposal, the same conversation will go like this:

Newbie - "Wow, you are fast"
'Shoe - "Thanks. I just got my car set up. The camber plates and sway bars really helped, but the big difference was the ECU and going (plus or minus) 1 on the wheels to run the better tires".
Newbie - "Geez, sounds like a lot of stuff to do. Where did you get it done?"
'Shoe - "Well there's a guy out in Arizona that does the ECU's for these cars, and most of the rest of the stuff is readily available. My mechanic installed it"
Newbie – “What did you do the ECU?”
‘Shoe – “Disabled the traction control so you can make the car do what you want”
Newbie – “Doesn’t that void the warranty?”
‘Shoe – “Yes, but that’s what you have to do to run towards the front”
Newbie - "Hmmm...How much did that all cost?"
'Shoe - "Well, the ECU reprogram was $200, the camber plates were about $500, the wheels were $1000, and the bars were around $600 for the set. Probably have another $500 - $600 in labor. Then, it took me most of last year to make it all work".
Newbie - "Do you have to do all that?"
'Shoe - "Most of the faster guys around here have some or all of this stuff done. Driving can overcome some of it, but you really need to develop your car."
Newbie starts thinking that while autocross is fun, it's not something they want to put all that much energy into.
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Bobby Beyer
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Re: April Fastrack

Post by Bobby Beyer »

As a newbie last year, those are my thoughts 100% when I saw this proposal. Plus all the allowances are just another avenue to f@ck up your car.
"Promise mediocrity. Deliver just slightly better." - Jarrett Bellini
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