Passengers at Champ events

[Jayson Woodruff]

I thought I over heard there was a new policy on passengers at champ events. Is this true, and if so can someone outline it for me. Thanks,

Jay W

[Bill Martin]

I asked the same thing when I was doing Starter. Was told anybody, anytime. Except you can't do a ride-along if you haven't completed your own official runs first. That was all verbal from the timing motorhome folks. Haven't seen anything in writing.

[Steve Ekstrand]

I think that was passed a very long time ago and wasn't being followed.

We do need to make sure that passengers have SCCA membership (reg or temp or pass).

[Doug Teulie]

Rule or rumor?

If it is a rule it needs to be published, it needs to have visibility and people need to understand it.

I heard it from someone and they said, "You could take any passenger on any run as long as they were older than some age and they had a helmet. You could have an instructor any time you want or you could take your grandmother for ride if you want."

[KJ Christopher]

Palero is working on getting the supplemental regulations updated. In the meantime, here is the rule change (viewtopic.php?f=25&t=7451):

Rule Change: George’s motion, Chris seconds, passed unanimously.

Change 3.5.1.1 UNAPPROVED PASSENGER PENALTY
Any driver (other than a Student/Novice taking an Approved Instructor) with a passenger during official competition runs will have that run and any subsequent official runs marked as DNF. Any passenger who has not completed all of their official competition runs will have any subsequent official runs marked DNF

to

3.5.1.1 UNAPPROVED PASSENGER PENALTY
Any driver other than a Student/Novice with a passenger during official competition runs will have that run and any subsequent official runs marked as DNF. Any passenger who has not completed all of their official competition runs will have any subsequent official runs marked DNF

The intent is to allow people new to our sport the ability to take passengers for exposure to our sport as well as instruction.

[Steve Ekstrand]

Huh?

[Jayson Woodruff]

Huh?

"The intent is to allow people new to our sport the ability to take passengers for exposure to our sport as well as instruction."

I think he just said "Sheldon Yes, Steve NO".

So... Only Novices are allowed passengers (unrestricted) during their Champ runs?

Jay W

[Bill Martin]

Well, as starter for heat 1 yesterday, I can tell you that rule was probably not being observed. I would have heard of a lot of DNF's over the speaker.

[Steve Ekstrand]

So, the best exposure to our sport is to offer a passenger a ride with a clueless driver?

[Steve Ekstrand]

Are we really afraid at the local level of the impact of passengers on competition? Really? I don't get it.

[Craig Naylor]

yea.... the rule change was left as clear as mud. The only thing(s) removed were brackets and "taking an Approved Instructor".

Basically came down to a few people who hung their hats on the word "Student". With the removal of the implied definition of student that the included "approved instructor" lent the rule, it became vague enough to fit different situations if needed for those who wanted a broader inclusion of passengers.

So what is a "Student"... the final decision was to leave it purposefully undefined. All of the following examples were brought up... but NONE were unanimously determined NOT be students.

Is it a person with a learners permit? Maybe
Is it a person who is enrolled at a High School or College? Maybe
Is it a person who has won trophies at national level events, learning the setup of a new to them car? Maybe
Would Christine Berry as a college student have qualified? Maybe

There was at least one *(though the one may have varied) who felt any of the above would qualify, but there was never a consensus by all that any one of them would or would not qualify. While it passed unanimously, the problem is it was left vague enough... you could drive a bus through it.

It can fit just about any argument, except maybe Tom Berry driving his own Evo. Well, unless that is, Tom enrolls in some fun course he's always had an interest in at his Local JC... then, well, he too would be a student by definition!

[Craig Naylor]

So, the best exposure to our sport is to offer a passenger a ride with a clueless driver?

The argument presented was that if Novice A couldn't take friends 1,2, and 3 with him... he wouldn't pay to enter, and would leave... and tell others we weren't friendly via social media, taking his in tow friends and online followers all with him.

Ok, I Brian Williams that a little ....but it was the just of the argument, that upsetting one, could upset more, so lets be inclusive to all... well except those who have already committed long term... but we'll leave a small crack in the door for them if they choose to push it open.

[Doug Teulie]

Well, as starter for heat 1 yesterday, I can tell you that rule was probably not being observed. I would have heard of a lot of DNF's over the speaker.

I don't know what you should do as event master, starter or grid. I still don't understand the rule.

"NOV" on the door and Instructor magnet on the car and passenger seat occupied with a novice, I get it.
"NOV" on the door with a passenger that has ten SOLO 2 helmet stickers on it, I get it.
T.O. on the door with a passenger, I get it.
X on the door with a passenger, I get it.
ASP PAX on the door with an Evolution instructor in the passenger seat at a practice, I get it.
ASP PAX on the door, driver has 10 solo 2 tech stickers and an Evolution instructor in the passenger seat at a championship, I don't get it.

[George Schilling]

Last year we approved the rule as KJ suggested allowing novices to take passengers. It was my intent to make a motion to loosen the rule even further this year and allow anyone to take passengers except those who have not yet taken their competition rules. This will be addressed at the next committee meeting. Stand by for the decision.

[Doug Teulie]

CSCC Solo
Noun, a thing done by one person unaccompanied, in particular.
Verb, perform something unaccompanied, in particular.

[Marshall Grice]

CSCC Solo
Noun, a thing done by one person unaccompanied, in particular.
Verb, perform something unaccompanied, in particular.

I believe the "solo" refers only to the number of cars on course, not the number of people in the car. With gap of at least 20 sec behind the car in front of you and 20 sec ahead of the car behind you, you are effectively the only car on course. AKA it is not wheel to wheel racing, where they also have only one person in the car but have many cars on the course in close proximity.

Our sport is supposed to be fun. Giving people rides is fun. you don't have to give people rides if you don't want to.

I think we should still restrict competitors from riding along with someone else before they take their competition runs with an exception for novice class. Novices should be allowed to ride along as many times as they want prior to driving with out penalty. That shouldn't mean they get more than one instructor run, but just that they could ride along with someone else during that person's competition runs.

to follow up with your examples.
"ASP PAX on the door, driver has 10 solo 2 tech stickers and an Evolution instructor in the passenger seat at a championship, I don't get it."
is an evolution instructor really going to make a difference for someone in pax? I sure as hell won't go faster with someone yelling instructions at me while i'm driving.

how about ASP PAX on the door and a non-competing family member in the passenger seat? is that a problem?
or ASP PAX on the door and someone who has already completed all of their competition runs in the passenger seat (someone looking to see how it's done, not someone looking to provide instruction to the driver)? is that a problem?


as somebody who actually had PAX ASP on the side of the car for several years, i exchanged it for a TO because it is more fun, even if I have to put up with the stigma of being "one of those people" who only runs TO. We have national tours and pro solo for all of the SRZ BZNS.

[Bill Schenker]

...i exchanged it for a TO because it is more fun, even put up with the stigma of being "one of those people" who only runs TO...

That's pronounced: "timmmeee onleeee" while you squint your eyes and say it through your nose. FYI.

[Rick Brown]

I agree with Marshall.

I think the very experienced should not get instructor runs (where the instructor drives) on Sunday, they can do that all they want on Saturday if they are in the practice or not. Anyone can come on Saturday and get ride alongs. Yes, a little more valuable in your own car, but even a similar car would be useful. However, I have no problem with anyone, no matter their experience level, having a passenger on Sunday. Not likely a passenger/instructor is going to help you get your best time during a run, but their feedback after would be valuable.

[Doug Teulie]

...........................

Marshall I see your point about fun and I am glad you enjoy not racing for points on local Sundays over racing on Sunday. Practice, X, and T.O. is fun and you can have passengers and you can have passengers all day on Saturday. It sounds like we have it covered to me. You can drive with your friends for 12 runs on Saturday and 8 more runs on Sunday if driving with your friends is what makes you happy.

The club will do what they want in the name of fun. At some point we will all no longer be racing solo on Sunday. It becomes even more of a TEAM race with team instruction on the first runs and then the driver in the car gets to work it out on the last two runs. Driver A runs first and pays off his work assignment and then helps driver C in the second run group by telling them how to drive the corners on the first two runs. With this proposed rule change the game can change if you play it to your advantage. I am thinking about racers who spend time and money looking for an edge and this gives them one more lever to use. Think about it. It ends up helping drivers with teams using the same car and can hurt others. It may turn folks away from the sport that are single drivers (I don't know). It boils down to how you want to play the rule. Sorry but I don't agree with the open passenger idea when racing in Solo unless the rule changes at nationals too.

[Marshall Grice]

The club will do what they want in the name of fun. At some point we will all no longer be racing solo on Sunday. It becomes more of a TEAM race with instruction on the first runs and then the driver in the car gets to work it out on the last two runs. With this proposed rule change the game can change if you play it to your advantage. I am thinking about racers who spend time and money looking for an edge and this gives them one more lever to use. It ends up helping drivers with teams using the same car and can hurt others. It boils down to how you want to play the rule. Sorry but I don't agree with open passenger idea when racing in Solo unless the rule changes at nationals too.

You seemed to have ignored my point about what solo really applies to.

In the extreme, where a good driver has an even better instructor riding along to provide feedback, how is riding along any different than reviewing video and data between runs?

The answer is the video/data review with no passenger is more advantageous than dragging the dead weight with you. It is also completely legal in all levels of our sport. I cannot see how dragging a couple hundred pounds of dead weight around on course can be seen as a competitive advantage. if we want to talk about competitive advantages that we allow locally that are not allowed at the national level lets talk about us scoring more than 3 runs on sunday.

[Doug Teulie]

The club will do what they want in the name of fun. At some point we will all no longer be racing solo on Sunday. It becomes more of a TEAM race with instruction on the first runs and then the driver in the car gets to work it out on the last two runs. With this proposed rule change the game can change if you play it to your advantage. I am thinking about racers who spend time and money looking for an edge and this gives them one more lever to use. It ends up helping drivers with teams using the same car and can hurt others. It boils down to how you want to play the rule. Sorry but I don't agree with open passenger idea when racing in Solo unless the rule changes at nationals too.

You seemed to have ignored my point about what solo really applies to.

In the extreme, where a good driver has an even better instructor riding along to provide feedback, how is riding along any different than reviewing video and data between runs?

The answer is the video/data review with no passenger is more advantageous than dragging the dead weight with you. It is also completely legal in all levels of our sport. I cannot see how dragging a couple hundred pounds of dead weight around on course can be seen as a competitive advantage. if we want to talk about competitive advantages that we allow locally that are not allowed at the national level lets talk about us scoring more than 3 runs on sunday.

Do you have to have the passenger weight on all your runs? No?

Having a live instructor that knows the car and drove it earlier point out the brake spots, speed and setup points in real time is different than having a driver find it on video. A driver can watch another driver's video and not get the detail.

2 runs or 4 runs we all get the same number of runs but 4 runs makes it more of a potential advantage because you don't need to have the extra weight on runs 3 and 4. Not everyone has an instructor that knows the car and drove it earlier to point out the details for you in real time. That is the difference. Not everyone has...... Yes 2 driver cars have some advantages but an "instructor that knows the car" is one more major lever. This is a major departure for SOLO.

[Anthony P.]

Just my 2 cents

With Novices whether they are classed that way or not, if they want to have a passenger ( a friend or a non-instructor) in the car for all their competition runs great. If they want to have an instructor ride along for their runs im ok with that too. As long as the instructor or passenger has completed their runs or isnt running. My experience is that when people get excited with how much time they dropped they want to come back for more!

For anyone else, if I have a family member in from out of town and I want to have them ride along it should be my choice to drag around 180 more lbs. It hurts, not helps my competition runs and I shouldn't be DNF'd for it. At this point my use of instructor runs should be limited to my x-runs. Should there be extenuating circumstances I would ask my fellow competitors.

[Doug Teulie]

Thanks for adding.

At one event a few years ago I took 2 regular Sunday runs and DNFed my third so I could give a CS Fullerton news paper person a ride (not that my car is all that great). The lap was not that much slower but I took the DNF to help someone out and help introduce the sport to more people. I get the help others idea.

Just my 2 cents

With Novices whether they are classed that way or not, if they want to have a passenger ( a friend or a non-instructor) in the car for all their competition runs great. If they want to have an instructor ride along for their runs im ok with that too. As long as the instructor or passenger has completed their runs or isnt running. My experience is that when people get excited with how much time they dropped they want to come back for more!

That is the way it is now.

Just my 2 cents

For anyone else, if I have a family member in from out of town and I want to have them ride along it should be my choice to drag around 180 more lbs. It hurts, not helps my competition runs and I shouldn't be DNF'd for it. At this point my use of instructor runs should be limited to my x-runs. Should there be extenuating circumstances I would ask my fellow competitors.

I have to ask the question...What if my family member is Lewis Hamilton and he just setup my car and drove a winning PAX lap? Then he jumped into all the cars in your class for one instructor lap improving lap times for the entire class but he did not instruct you? And then he does this same thing at every event for the year. The new rule would allow it.

I made my point and I hope folks can understand. And the previous mentioned ASP car was out of respect to all the great drivers that have driven that car.

[George Schilling]

I have to ask the question...What if my family member is Lewis Hamilton and he just setup my car and drove a winning PAX lap? Then he jumped into all the cars in your class for one instructor lap improving lap times for the entire class but he did not instruct you? And then he does this same thing at every event for the year. The new rule would allow it.

Personally, I would have no problem with it. If I need help to keep up, I know other great instructors who would love to help me. Continuing to improve should be everyone's goal.

My feeling is that stressing fun, and improving is fun, camaraderie, sportsmanship, and sharing the experience with friends and family will bring more people to the region than strict rules. Those that want a more competitive feel to their autocross experience will gravitate toward national level competitions. While we may disagree Doug on what we think the regional experience should be, I hope you don't disagree with my rationale for wanting to relax the regional rules.

[Bill Schenker]

[...dragging the dead weight with you...I cannot see how dragging a couple hundred pounds of dead weight around on course can be seen as a competitive advantage...

Hey! Who you calling "dead weight"? And I weigh a buck and a half....o.k., 160.