Passengers at Champ events

General discussions about Solo

Moderator: Mike Simanyi

User avatar
Doug Teulie
Posts: 531
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:26 am
Club: PSCC
Car#: 99
Location: Orange County CA

Re: Passengers at Champ events

Post by Doug Teulie »

George Schilling wrote: I hope you don't disagree with my rationale for wanting to relax the regional rules.
[/quote]

George,
I understand your rationale clearly. I am not trying to fight the club reps. You are saying that practice and improving your driving is fun. We all agree with that. That is why so many drivers run X runs and attend San Diego and LA practice and other Auto-x events like Porsche and BMW, to get more practice and more instruction. Are people not having enough fun? If you change the rules as you want in the name of "fun" everything in your local club becomes practice for everyone and that is more "fun." The only racing is at Tour and Pro. Perhaps that is true for many drivers and local racing is pointless. I think everyone has so many chances to have instruction without making our only timed runs another set of practice with more instruction. It is possible that in car TEAM instruction will become part of the LA game. You disagree with me.
Doug T
PSCC CSCC #99 /SCNAX SD #151 LT Points 23,600.
TEAM DHE/FAST 1976 KARMANN 8V FSP MK1 SILVER SCIROCCO
TEAM DHE/FAST 1980 KARMANN 8V FSP MK1 RED SCIROCCO
Need VW parts?--->http://www.parts4vws.com Need Wax?--> Mother's
User avatar
George Schilling
Club Representative
Posts: 5135
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:26 am
Club: CASOC
Car#: 66
Location: Lakewood, CA

Re: Passengers at Champ events

Post by George Schilling »

Doug, if we end up loosening the rules on passengers and instructors, I would kindly ask that everyone monitor the situation for the next year and report any related problems affecting the region negatively. Despite the fact that we don't see eye to eye on this, we all want what's best for the region as a whole. If it doesn't work out, we can always change it.
CASOC Autocross Club, 1984 Van Diemen RF-84, 1600cc Kent, Hewland Mk9, Centerline 2 pc. wheels, Hoosier R25B, SuperTrapp, Zimmer Alloclassic titanium left hip w/Metasul LDH chromium-cobalt lg dia head
User avatar
Art Rinner
Posts: 487
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:26 am
Car#: 83
Location: Watching over everything
Contact:

Re: Passengers at Champ events

Post by Art Rinner »

George Schilling wrote:
Doug Teulie wrote: I have to ask the question...What if my family member is Lewis Hamilton and he just setup my car and drove a winning PAX lap? Then he jumped into all the cars in your class for one instructor lap improving lap times for the entire class but he did not instruct you? And then he does this same thing at every event for the year. The new rule would allow it.
Personally, I would have no problem with it. If I need help to keep up, I know other great instructors who would love to help me. Continuing to improve should be everyone's goal.

My feeling is that stressing fun, and improving is fun, camaraderie, sportsmanship, and sharing the experience with friends and family will bring more people to the region than strict rules. Those that want a more competitive feel to their autocross experience will gravitate toward national level competitions. While we may disagree Doug on what we think the regional experience should be, I hope you don't disagree with my rationale for wanting to relax the regional rules.
Why can't we put in some language that states that these rides are intended for entertainment purposes and should not be used for instruction during competition runs. Drivers who abuse this can be protested for sportsmanship reasons.
Art Rinner
#83 240ZT
User avatar
Bill Martin
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:26 am
Club: GRA
Car#: 74

Re: Passengers at Champ events

Post by Bill Martin »

Too much is being made of this. Looks to me like the majority are going to favor restricting only "previews", as do I. Doug has a contrary opinion and Art has his concerns, but that's how it usually is. You never get 100% consensus, nor is it required. I'm for the full relaxation, no-previews, rule change because it will help me out in the spouse department.
User avatar
Jayson Woodruff
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:26 am
Club: PSCC
Car#: 51

Re: Passengers at Champ events

Post by Jayson Woodruff »

Art Rinner wrote:Why can't we put in some language that states that these rides are intended for entertainment purposes and should not be used for instruction during competition runs. Drivers who abuse this can be protested for sportsmanship reasons.
Because that's how we end up with 300p rule books that no one reads anymore. Sportsmanship is always protestable. The 'What ifs' are a bit outragious on this thread, so I'm with Bill. Majority wins, change it again if it becomes a problem.

I opened this thread not to be divisive (*wink Art*). Since my wife was out last weekend and hasn't had a ride along since the Dakota was wondering if I could have taken her. But I'm glad were making some clarifications and elevated some member options for the Club Reps to see.

Jay W
User avatar
Anthony P.
Former CSCC Overall Champion
Posts: 1325
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:30 am
Club: SCNAX
Car#: 30

Re: Passengers at Champ events

Post by Anthony P. »

Jayson Woodruff wrote:
Art Rinner wrote:Why can't we put in some language that states that these rides are intended for entertainment purposes and should not be used for instruction during competition runs. Drivers who abuse this can be protested for sportsmanship reasons.
Because that's how we end up with 300p rule books that no one reads anymore. Sportsmanship is always protestable.
Jay W
This
User avatar
Sean Fenstermacher
Posts: 695
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:56 pm
Club: SCNAX
Car#: 81

Re: Passengers at Champ events

Post by Sean Fenstermacher »

:D
User avatar
Steve Ekstrand
Solo Safety Steward
Posts: 7482
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:26 am
Club: CASOC
Car#: 15
Location: This space left intentionally blank
Contact:

Re: Passengers at Champ events

Post by Steve Ekstrand »

What if magic aliens descended from on high and effed with our delicate competitive balance....

Dude..... It's not a perfect world. But it is supposed to be friendly and fun with a taste of good-natured competition.
Dr. Conemangler
aka The Malefic One
2015 Wildcat Honda F600
Jonathan Lugod
King of Fastrack!
Posts: 966
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:29 am
Club: SCNAX
Car#: 194
Location: Oceanside

Re: Passengers at Champ events

Post by Jonathan Lugod »

Image

Where are the supps?
http://www.osgiken.net
4 BSP- 2019 Mazda ND Miata - 2001 SSM Honda S2000
OS Giken / Bride / ShaftWorks USA
Brian Tilley
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:09 pm

Re: Passengers at Champ events

Post by Brian Tilley »

Well it seems like this thread has come to a general consensus, but I wanted to put in my two cents. Personally, I've always had a problem with the way this rule is written. I am still pretty green (about 15 solo events total) but I wouldn't consider myself eligible for instructor runs at this point. I would however, consider it completely legal for me to bring someone who was a novice along. I've always thought that as long as one person doesn't know what they are doing, it should be legal. If I bring my cousin who is a graphic artist and has never seen a racecar before in his life, no problem. If I bring my friend who has been to nationals before, I see the problem. I think it should be treated as cases of "beyond any reasonable doubt". That is to say, someone who has a lot of road racing experience may not help, but it could be debated, so it shouldn't be legal. There will always be a grey area, so you have to trust people to a certain extent, but the thing is, we all know who is winning at the local level. It will be pretty obvious if they are taking specific passengers every weekend. I think I am a good example of someone who could technically "get away" with having instructors and gaining a competitive advantage, but that is because I don't go to every event and people don't recognize me as a result of that. If I gained a competitive advantage at some events, yes it could effect the outcome of the local championship, but it wouldn't "forever swing the balance".

Basically, my suggestion for making things more "fun" and "friendly" to newcomers is to allow any passengers any time, as long as one of the two people is a complete obvious novice (driver or passenger). It sounds like it will take at least a year before the rules are "open for change" so I'm just hoping I inspire the more influential people in this region for when that time comes.
User avatar
Craig Naylor
Posts: 1973
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:30 am
Club: SCNAX
Car#: 80
Location: Long Beach

Re: Passengers at Champ events

Post by Craig Naylor »

I disagree with the dead weight argument... as it does not apply across all classes. Since corner weighting in stock classes is not legal, it can be very beneficial to place strategically added weight to the passenger side.

You have to look at the effects across all classes.

While I agree with Marshals definition of why the sport is called Solo, name another form of automobile competition at speed that allows passengers. If you want to share the experience with your friends and family,you have all day Saturday, and Sunday X-runs, and TO class entries, and fun runs (when offered) are all options for your friends and family members to ride along. If you can't find an opportunity to give someone a ride, your the one not trying very hard.

We don't need competition run's opened up to for your laziness tone of the many other options work.

.... and to the "consensuses" comment above, 5-6 people expressing interest in, and about the same against, does not anywhere come close to any rational of statistical sampling to draw a consensuses claim. If anything the silent majority not speaking up should be very loudly heard, that they don't have a strong opinion that the status quo needs changed.
Brian Tilley
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:09 pm

Re: Passengers at Champ events

Post by Brian Tilley »

Maybe I read something wrong and I apologize if I did, but I was under the impression that the rule change had already occurred. The consensus I was therefore referencing was that it is too late to change anything for this year and we have to monitor the situation and see how it works until then. Just to clarify what I was getting at.

Also, voting on these things takes place at some type of monthly meeting, correct? Wouldn't the people who have the most invested interest in the club be at those meetings fairly regularly and be aware of this type of rule change ahead of time? I can't see something like this changing behind everyone's backs. I would expect there was some level of transparency with the whole process, and based on the fact that we are an organization run on volunteers, those people did what they thought was in the best interest for the club at the time. I can't complain either way since I don't take the time to go to those meetings, which is why I worded my post as a suggestion/opinion. Similarly, this post is just my thoughts on the topic. As I am new to this region I understand things could be significantly different than the region I come from. Although that is easy enough to see by going to any event.
User avatar
Rick Brown
Current Solo Director
Posts: 5114
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:25 am
Club: PSCC
Car#: 240
Location: Lake Elsinore, CA

Re: Passengers at Champ events

Post by Rick Brown »

Brian Tilley wrote: Also, voting on these things takes place at some type of monthly meeting, correct? Wouldn't the people who have the most invested interest in the club be at those meetings fairly regularly and be aware of this type of rule change ahead of time? I can't see something like this changing behind everyone's backs. I would expect there was some level of transparency with the whole process, and based on the fact that we are an organization run on volunteers, those people did what they thought was in the best interest for the club at the time. I can't complain either way since I don't take the time to go to those meetings, which is why I worded my post as a suggestion/opinion. Similarly, this post is just my thoughts on the topic. As I am new to this region I understand things could be significantly different than the region I come from. Although that is easy enough to see by going to any event.
Our meetings are currently all by conference call on the 3rd Wednesday of the month. Details are on the link on the calendar at solo2.com. The Teams/Clubs you see referred to here and there and at events have representatives at the meeting who are the voting members, in addition to an Executive Board consisting of the President, Vice President, Secretary and Treasurer. Depending on what's being voted on the reps may or may not consult with their members before voting. While there is a link on solo2.com for meeting minutes, we have been very lax of late in getting them published. Most of how we are organized is in the Supplementary Regulations also linked at solo2.com.
Since light is faster than sound...many people look bright until they speak...
User avatar
Jeff Stuart
King of Fastrack!
Posts: 674
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:31 pm
Club: CASOC
Car#: 13
Location: Santa Barbara
Contact:

Re: Passengers at Champ events

Post by Jeff Stuart »

Craig Naylor wrote:If anything the silent majority not speaking up should be very loudly heard
Ok.

I think any passenger any time should be allowed.

If co-drivers want to help each other, let them... When it comes down to it, the person driving the car still has to execute. No amount of instruction, whether it be from observers watching from the spectator area, someone who's looking at data from your runs, or your co-driver (who just drove the same car faster than you 10 minutes ago) yelling at you throughout the run, is going to change that.
User avatar
Rick Brown
Current Solo Director
Posts: 5114
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:25 am
Club: PSCC
Car#: 240
Location: Lake Elsinore, CA

Re: Passengers at Champ events

Post by Rick Brown »

Jeff Stuart wrote:
Craig Naylor wrote:If anything the silent majority not speaking up should be very loudly heard
Ok.

I think any passenger any time should be allowed.

If co-drivers want to help each other, let them... When it comes down to it, the person driving the car still has to execute. No amount of instruction, whether it be from observers watching from the spectator area, someone who's looking at data from your runs, or your co-driver (who just drove the same car faster than you 10 minutes ago) yelling at you throughout the run, is going to change that.
Come on Jeff, don't you know logic has no place in this type of argument? ;)
Since light is faster than sound...many people look bright until they speak...
Ira Cruz
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:25 am
Club: No$
Car#: 789

Re: Passengers at Champ events

Post by Ira Cruz »

Rick Brown wrote:
Jeff Stuart wrote:
Craig Naylor wrote:If anything the silent majority not speaking up should be very loudly heard
Ok.

I think any passenger any time should be allowed.

If co-drivers want to help each other, let them... When it comes down to it, the person driving the car still has to execute. No amount of instruction, whether it be from observers watching from the spectator area, someone who's looking at data from your runs, or your co-driver (who just drove the same car faster than you 10 minutes ago) yelling at you throughout the run, is going to change that.
Come on Jeff, don't you know logic has no place in this type of argument? ;)
Just like golf! Fore!!
User avatar
Doug Teulie
Posts: 531
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:26 am
Club: PSCC
Car#: 99
Location: Orange County CA

Re: Passengers at Champ events

Post by Doug Teulie »

@ Steve and some of the others, I am glad I could provide you with some entertainment. I know I will not be successful at changing your decision. For clarity I looked up the SCCA National rules on the passenger topic and number of runs. Some of the folks may not understand what I consider to be the foundation of the sport.

2015 SCCA® National Solo® Rules:
SCCA wrote: D. .....The only passengers who may be allowed during competitions runs in National Solo® events are non competitors whose role is to fulfill the state-mandated requirements for a driver who has a restricted driver’s license requiring a passenger....

6.7 VISUAL OR ORAL INSTRUCTION
No visual or oral instruction shall be given to a driver during his timed runs except in an emergency situation.

7.3 MINIMUM OF THREE RUNS
Each driver shall be allowed at least three (3) official timed runs per course, subject to severe circumstances beyond the control of the event organizers. Reduction in the number of runs offered at the National Championships may be done only with the concurrence of the Chief Steward, Event Chair, SEB Chair, and the Solo® Department. Only the fastest official run per course will be scored.
^^^This is the starting point that some locals call "more strict." SCCA's intent is listed above. Most people's interpretation of Solo: No passengers when racing. No instruction when racing. Only one run (of at least 3) counts (the one with the lowest time). SCCA does not allow instructors in the car with students for immediate feedback during any timed runs (not the first, second and so on). The SCCA rules are easy to enforce, easy to understand and clear.

The proposed rule change is targeted at the foundation of the sport.

True the local groups can make changes to a point. We made a change years ago to allow instructors for novice drivers in the name of safety and it has a side benefit of providing new drivers with a more positive experience. If we drift off from the listed above SCCA rules (from no passengers and no instruction when racing to ---> can have as much instruction and as many passengers as they want when racing) for all competitors I think we need to publish the new rules in a location where members can view them.

Event masters need to be able to resolve conflicts between competitors at events.

The safety of novices driving novice passengers needs to be looked at.

More drivers requesting better instructors in the first run group needs to be looked at.

Grid delays as drivers wait for instructors needs to be looked at.

The proposed change shifts the foundation of the local competition intent and activities. The proposed change intent is to provide an additional opportunity to take instruction (in addition the now 16 runs available with X runs and all day practice on Saturday with no changes to the rules). The other intent is to allow friends and family to ride as passengers in addition to the 16 runs now available.

I believe (I know that the club does not typically support this) consideration for Fair instruction (a level playing field for competitors) needs to be looked at because sportsmanship is likely to be questioned. If we change the rule as proposed it becomes a time bomb for conflicts and a burden to instructors. The new rules would support what would traditionally be considered un-sportsmanship actions. Do we tell competitors that feel others have an unfair team instructor advantage to suck it up because we are having more fun? More likely we will tell them to find a better team from the unlimited supply of available instructors pushing the issue on to them making it clear that Solo in LA is team racing. I feel it is irresponsible to make rules when you don't expect races to use them to an advantage.

Is choosing an instructor the same as choosing the brand of tire? (Some say it is) I say no because the tire brand is more available to the majority of drivers in many of the classes and instructors are not. You purchase tires but I don't think you should purchase other drivers. Some instructors may run in the 6th group when others may run in the first. A driver running for points is not allowed to instruct until they have completed all timed runs.

Some say the weight of the instructor will slow down the car so it is not an advantage. One run with an instructor out of 4 runs is not a weight disadvantage when only one run counts. If it is no advantage to have live instruction at all then why make a rule change? Evolution School has made it a point to provide in car instruction because the real time instruction improves drivers. That is why some are pushing for the rule change (every run is school). I believe (and many others do as well) that you should try to learn every time you drive/ race but I think School is not the same as racing or learning on your own. School is best done in a different setting (Practice, EVO or a club School, T.O. or X-runs). If instruction is provided in X-runs the student has the chance to see the improvement that instruction provides after they gave it real try without instruction. When racing, drivers need to focus. Taking instruction requires multitasking. Racing for points with instruction can make racing more frustrating for some. This is different--->Having an instructor/team mate point out to a second or third driver (when racing in a class for points) how to take the bumps, how fast to take the sweepers and point out brake zones to optimize a given car's performance on the same course that the instructor/ team mate drove in the same day. Video does not provide the same thing however if it did than why change the rule? Most team mates have the chance to practice on Saturday and have driving instruction in the most optimum environment and then the Sunday instruction becomes less about skill and more about optimizing a given car's performance for the team mates.

Changing foundation rules in the middle of a series and reversing the rule change is not normal in most types of competition especially when unfair advantage is at question by some or all.
Doug T
PSCC CSCC #99 /SCNAX SD #151 LT Points 23,600.
TEAM DHE/FAST 1976 KARMANN 8V FSP MK1 SILVER SCIROCCO
TEAM DHE/FAST 1980 KARMANN 8V FSP MK1 RED SCIROCCO
Need VW parts?--->http://www.parts4vws.com Need Wax?--> Mother's
User avatar
silvio zucchet
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:54 pm
Location: west los angeles

Re: Passengers at Champ events

Post by silvio zucchet »

George Schilling wrote:Last year we approved the rule as KJ suggested allowing novices to take passengers. It was my intent to make a motion to loosen the rule even further this year and allow anyone to take passengers except those who have not yet taken their competition rules..
I think this makes the most sense and is also the simplest. I don't think that having a passenger has any advantage
smooth is fast
User avatar
Pete Loney
Posts: 1083
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:26 am
Club: SCNAX
Car#: 777
Location: Torrance

Re: Passengers at Champ events

Post by Pete Loney »

One fact I spotted from this last event now that we allow this.

The winner of Novice class did have an instructor in the car for his last and final winning run.

I wonder what his/her competitors think about that ?
2021 Season: 777 ES | 1999 Miata, 10th Anniversary #3987/7500
MIATAROADSTER.COM
Brian Peters
Posts: 89
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:26 am

Re: Passengers at Champ events

Post by Brian Peters »

Having the right passenger can absolutely impact results. I disagree with some of the comments I have seen suggesting this is limited only to novices.

Our local region has battled with this issue and resorted to only allowing designated instructors as passengers during competition runs, limited to Novice category drivers only.

As Pete highlighted, equal and fair utilization can then become the next discussion point.
User avatar
Steve Ekstrand
Solo Safety Steward
Posts: 7482
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:26 am
Club: CASOC
Car#: 15
Location: This space left intentionally blank
Contact:

Re: Passengers at Champ events

Post by Steve Ekstrand »

In Novice, Sheldon's passenger was a lot cuter than Bill's passenger.
Dr. Conemangler
aka The Malefic One
2015 Wildcat Honda F600
User avatar
Art Rinner
Posts: 487
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:26 am
Car#: 83
Location: Watching over everything
Contact:

Re: Passengers at Champ events

Post by Art Rinner »

Pete Loney wrote:One fact I spotted from this last event now that we allow this.

The winner of Novice class did have an instructor in the car for his last and final winning run.

I wonder what his/her competitors think about that ?
By the looks of it, his time in Novice would have been good for 3rd in STS and would have dropped you out of the trophies Pete. Looks like he really needed that extra instruction. Time to leave Novice I think and quit using instructors (during competition).

I am curious did he have an instructor for every run. If he did it would prove the value of in-car instruction as he improved significantly in every run.
Art Rinner
#83 240ZT
User avatar
Marshall Grice
Former CSCC Overall Champion
Posts: 1617
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:27 am
Club: CASOC
Car#: 11

Re: Passengers at Champ events

Post by Marshall Grice »

Pete Loney wrote:One fact I spotted from this last event now that we allow this.

The winner of Novice class did have an instructor in the car for his last and final winning run.

I wonder what his/her competitors think about that ?
just to be clear, novices are allowed to have instructors on every run and have been allowed to do that since before the latest rule change. I'm not exactly sure what your point is.
Post Reply