"entrants" and supplemental rules 7.9.1 question

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"entrants" and supplemental rules 7.9.1 question

Post by Chad-1stGen »

How are the average entrants determined? Is it only entrants that don't use a temporary number (6xx or xxxx) like what is displayed in the year to date standings or does it include all entrants displayed in an individual event's results?
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Re: "entrants" and supplemental rules 7.9.1 question

Post by George Schilling »

The way I read it "entrants" refers to those with points cards, otherwise known as a permanent number. It later explains "entrants" excludes guests.
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Re: "entrants" and supplemental rules 7.9.1 question

Post by Craig Naylor »

In the past, entrants were those in the class who crossed the start line at least once. No matter their club affiliation.

If a 600 win's, your point for the class are based off of them for the event. If their not an entrant, we need to change that, so points are based off of the highest placing points card holder.
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Re: "entrants" and supplemental rules 7.9.1 question

Post by Rick Brown »

Craig Naylor wrote:In the past, entrants were those in the class who crossed the start line at least once. No matter their club affiliation.

If a 600 win's, your point for the class are based off of them for the event. If their not an entrant, we need to change that, so points are based off of the highest placing points card holder.
Originally it was based off the highest points card holder. Then quite a while ago it was changed to all entrants in the class as Craig says.
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Re: "entrants" and supplemental rules 7.9.1 question

Post by George Schilling »

However, what Craig and Rick are talking about does not relate to the question at hand.

Here's the rule regarding number of awards per class after first place.

7.9.1 SUBSEQUENT PLACES
In addition, at least the following minimum number of awards shall be given: a class must
average 5 entrants for a Second Place award and an additional 2.5 entrants for each
subsequent award. DNF’s count; DNR’s and guests do not count. Regardless of the number of
entrants, when the First Place award winner is within 100 points of the net points possible, an
award shall be given, for a Second Place within 5% of the winner’s total and awards to all others
within 8% of the winner’s totals.

I assume that a non-points card holder (6xx and 1xxx) is a guest. I don't know of another way to interpret that. So my interpretation is that only points cards holders figure into the average number of entrants per event for the purpose of calculating trophy depth.
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Re: "entrants" and supplemental rules 7.9.1 question

Post by Craig Naylor »

In our verbose rules... we apparently need a definition of a guest!

At the time the rules were written, non-SCCA members could play. IMHO, since all entrants are NOW SCCA members, we don't have guests anymore.
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Re: "entrants" and supplemental rules 7.9.1 question

Post by Sean Fenstermacher »

I agree with George's interpretation.

Even if they are SCCA members (annual or weekend membership), they should need to purchase a points card to be an official entrant and not a guest.
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Re: "entrants" and supplemental rules 7.9.1 question

Post by Craig Naylor »

Sean Fenstermacher wrote:I agree with George's interpretation.

Even if they are SCCA members (annual or weekend membership), they should need to purchase a points card to be an official entrant and not a guest.
If their a guest, and not an entrant, then they should be excluded from the results, and made ineligible to base class point's off.

They can't simultaneously be an entrant for which points card holders points are based off of, and a non entrant guest not eligible for that same points card holder to use as an average number of entrants.
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Re: "entrants" and supplemental rules 7.9.1 question

Post by Sean Fenstermacher »

Craig Naylor wrote:
Sean Fenstermacher wrote:I agree with George's interpretation.

Even if they are SCCA members (annual or weekend membership), they should need to purchase a points card to be an official entrant and not a guest.
If their a guest, and not an entrant, then they should be excluded from the results, and made ineligible to base class point's off.

They can't simultaneously be an entrant for which points card holders points are based off of, and a non entrant guest not eligible for that same points card holder to use as an average number of entrants.
It looks like the way the Sups are written we have 3 distinct terms for driver/participants used:

1) Driver - Seems to refer to anyone that actually drives on course during timed runs
2) Entrant - Seems to be a Driver with a valid regional Points Card
3) Guest - Seems to be a Driver without a regional Points Card

I think much of the confusion could be cleared up if we just add definitions for these three terms in the Definitions section (Sec 2), as they are used throughout the wording of the Sups.
If the above 3 terms are defined, the Sups are pretty clear on who earns what.

My interpretation of the way the rules are written now is that Event Day classes are based on number of Drivers (so Guests entries can help form a Class). Event trophies are based on number of Entrants.
Earned Class points are based on the results of the Drivers. So yes, if the winner is a Guest his/her times will effect other Entrants earned points for that event.

Maybe George, KJ, or Rick can chime in to confirm my interpretation?
There is still time to add these definitions to the 2017 Sups, I think.
Less confusion is always nice!
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Re: "entrants" and supplemental rules 7.9.1 question

Post by Rick Brown »

Sean Fenstermacher wrote: It looks like the way the Sups are written we have 3 distinct terms for driver/participants used:

1) Driver - Seems to refer to anyone that actually drives on course during timed runs
2) Entrant - Seems to be a Driver with a valid regional Points Card
3) Guest - Seems to be a Driver without a regional Points Card

I think much of the confusion could be cleared up if we just add definitions for these three terms in the Definitions section (Sec 2), as they are used throughout the wording of the Sups.
If the above 3 terms are defined, the Sups are pretty clear on who earns what.

My interpretation of the way the rules are written now is that Event Day classes are based on number of Drivers (so Guests entries can help form a Class). Event trophies are based on number of Entrants.
Earned Class points are based on the results of the Drivers. So yes, if the winner is a Guest his/her times will effect other Entrants earned points for that event.

Maybe George, KJ, or Rick can chime in to confirm my interpretation?
There is still time to add these definitions to the 2017 Sups, I think.
Less confusion is always nice!
It was a very long time ago when these were written. But best I can remember, I would agree with Sean's interpretation. The only thing that changed that I recall is that at one time points were based on the top placing points card holder getting 100 points and all others based off of that person's time. Then it was changed to be based off the actual winner's time, points card holder or not. Don't recall the discussion that led to that. I think we also didn't originally count guests toward making a class, but then decided they should count.
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Re: "entrants" and supplemental rules 7.9.1 question

Post by Chad-1stGen »

Sean Fenstermacher wrote: 1) Driver - Seems to refer to anyone that actually drives on course during timed runs
2) Entrant - Seems to be a Driver with a valid regional Points Card
3) Guest - Seems to be a Driver without a regional Points Card

Event trophies are based on number of Entrants.
Pretty sure that event trophies have been based on the total number of "drivers" (using your definition), not "entrants" which is great IMO. But I am biased because as I've been trying to grow the CAM class most competitors coming out have still been coming out as "guests." Here is hoping more become "entrants" in 2017.
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Re: "entrants" and supplemental rules 7.9.1 question

Post by George Schilling »

If we don't classify a non-points card holder as a guest, the value of a points card is diminished and NonPCH would have the same benefit as those who have committed by purchasing a points card, which is essence, is a license to participate in the yearly individual and team championship series. Apparently, this should be added to the agenda for further discussion and clarification.

For what it's worth, I'm thinking along the same lines as Chad at the moment.
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Re: "entrants" and supplemental rules 7.9.1 question

Post by Sean Fenstermacher »

Chad-1stGen wrote:
Sean Fenstermacher wrote: 1) Driver - Seems to refer to anyone that actually drives on course during timed runs
2) Entrant - Seems to be a Driver with a valid regional Points Card
3) Guest - Seems to be a Driver without a regional Points Card

Event trophies are based on number of Entrants.
Pretty sure that event trophies have been based on the total number of "drivers" (using your definition), not "entrants" which is great IMO. But I am biased because as I've been trying to grow the CAM class most competitors coming out have still been coming out as "guests." Here is hoping more become "entrants" in 2017.
Chad do you think that if the Guests had no opportunity to win a trophy (or solobucks) they would not come out?
Maybe we could make a optional fee for Guests to bump up their registration by a couple bucks ($5-10 maybe??) to cover trophy costs if they want the opportunity to win one?
Maybe this could also encourage more to purchase a points card, which is what we really need to encourage.

If we want to award regardless if Guest or Entrant, we would need to change the wording in 7.11 and replace "entrants" for "drivers".

7.11 REGIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP AWARDS
Awards are awarded in the following manner:
a. Open classes – One for 3 entrants, two for 5 entrants, one for each add’l 5.
b. Ladies classes – One for 3 entrants, two for five entrants, one for each add’l 5.
c. FJ classes – One for 2 entrants, one for each additional 3
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Re: "entrants" and supplemental rules 7.9.1 question

Post by Craig Naylor »

While I've never liked SD's requirement that all must buy a Solo Membership... Sure is a lot better than the US vs THEM... but were not calling it competition, crap that has developed in LA over the last few years.

In a nut shell
...we've argued to eliminate the word "championship" for fear of scaring the timid with the concept of competition...
...but we also don't want to include the "outsiders", when calculating the wink wink "competition" part, for fear of dilution.

To put it in political terms: we seam to be going the way of a socialist system where everyone is equal... As long as "they" don't interfere with the oligarch ego's.
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Re: "entrants" and supplemental rules 7.9.1 question

Post by Sean Fenstermacher »

Craig Naylor wrote: In a nut shell
...we've argued to eliminate the word "championship" for fear of scaring the timid with the concept of competition...
...but we also don't want to include the "outsiders", when calculating the wink wink "competition" part, for fear of dilution.
I don't really understand your view on how we are not inviting enough to non-points card holders.
By the current rules, Guest Drivers can still be included to make a class and their times can effect earned points for other Entrant Drivers...so I would say Guests are very much included in the competition side of things for each event.

Maybe Craig, you are misunderstanding the wording of the current rules. Guest drivers can still "win" any class they compete in, they just don't get a physical trophy or solo bucks. Results still get published and they can brag all they want.

Basically my understanding of the rules is, if a Guest driver wants an event trophy/solo-bucks or go for a Year-End Award they need to buy a Points Card.

Seems pretty fair and straight forward to me.

Just looking at the year end results, it seems we have A LOT of Guest Drivers coming out under the same number pretty often....that kinda defeats some of the purpose of buying a Points Card, I guess.

Even though I am not a huge fan of how SDR enacts a surcharge for Guest drivers (I think its $5), I think it would encourage these Guest Drivers to purchase a Points Card by lowering their entry fees and allowing them to win Solobucks.
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Re: "entrants" and supplemental rules 7.9.1 question

Post by Rick Brown »

Sean Fenstermacher wrote: Maybe Craig, you are misunderstanding the wording of the current rules. Guest drivers can still "win" any class they compete in, they just don't get a physical trophy or solo bucks. Results still get published and they can brag all they want.

Basically my understanding of the rules is, if a Guest driver wants an event trophy/solo-bucks or go for a Year-End Award they need to buy a Points Card.

Seems pretty fair and straight forward to me.

Just looking at the year end results, it seems we have A LOT of Guest Drivers coming out under the same number pretty often....that kinda defeats some of the purpose of buying a Points Card, I guess.

Even though I am not a huge fan of how SDR enacts a surcharge for Guest drivers (I think its $5), I think it would encourage these Guest Drivers to purchase a Points Card by lowering their entry fees and allowing them to win Solobucks.
Are you sure about guests not getting trophies and solo$? I've never heard that before and it doesn't seem to be the case to me, but I don't really look at what trophies are made compared to the results.

I do think we need to do something about people using regular numbers without a points card.
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Re: "entrants" and supplemental rules 7.9.1 question

Post by Sean Fenstermacher »

Rick Brown wrote:
Sean Fenstermacher wrote: Maybe Craig, you are misunderstanding the wording of the current rules. Guest drivers can still "win" any class they compete in, they just don't get a physical trophy or solo bucks. Results still get published and they can brag all they want.

Basically my understanding of the rules is, if a Guest driver wants an event trophy/solo-bucks or go for a Year-End Award they need to buy a Points Card.

Seems pretty fair and straight forward to me.

Just looking at the year end results, it seems we have A LOT of Guest Drivers coming out under the same number pretty often....that kinda defeats some of the purpose of buying a Points Card, I guess.

Even though I am not a huge fan of how SDR enacts a surcharge for Guest drivers (I think its $5), I think it would encourage these Guest Drivers to purchase a Points Card by lowering their entry fees and allowing them to win Solobucks.
Are you sure about guests not getting trophies and solo$? I've never heard that before and it doesn't seem to be the case to me, but I don't really look at what trophies are made compared to the results.

I do think we need to do something about people using regular numbers without a points card.
Sorry Rick, I didn't check as to what is "actually" going on! We might be awarding Guests regardless.
According to our Sup Rules, only Entrants (if my definitions are correct!! :) ) get awards:

Current wording:

7.11 REGIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP AWARDS
Awards are awarded in the following manner:
a. Open classes – One for 3 entrants, two for 5 entrants, one for each add’l 5.
b. Ladies classes – One for 3 entrants, two for five entrants, one for each add’l 5.
c. FJ classes – One for 2 entrants, one for each additional 3

I think they still get a "T" next to their name in Results, but no actual trophy or Solobucks are to be awarded.
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Re: "entrants" and supplemental rules 7.9.1 question

Post by Chad-1stGen »

Sean Fenstermacher wrote: Chad do you think that if the Guests had no opportunity to win a trophy (or solobucks) they would not come out?
I really doubt the availability or lack thereof to earn a trophy by itself will make a significant difference. Combined with other variables it might to some people but I don't expect to to meaningfully change numbers one way or another. I compete in a number of other autocross venues and I do think its neat that people have the chance to earn a trophy for something other than first place.

Having auto crossed in other venues the single biggest deterrent I've faced in trying to grow CAM is the number of runs. The second biggest factor is the difficulty of the courses. I struggle the most with understanding the course complexity point of view because its the thing that hooked me right away the first time I tried an SCCA course here in SoCal.
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Re: "entrants" and supplemental rules 7.9.1 question

Post by Sean Fenstermacher »

Chad-1stGen wrote: Having auto crossed in other venues the single biggest deterrent I've faced in trying to grow CAM is the number of runs. The second biggest factor is the difficulty of the courses. I struggle the most with understanding the course complexity point of view because its the thing that hooked me right away the first time I tried an SCCA course here in SoCal.
For number of runs, do you think many of CAM folk are not aware that we offer X-Runs? Maybe we need to better publicize that more or make them available for purchase online. With a set of x-runs, I generally think you can get pretty good value for your time.
Granted availability is limited.
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Re: "entrants" and supplemental rules 7.9.1 question

Post by Chad-1stGen »

Sean, I have been trying to get the word out about x-runs as I think that when available it makes for a killer value for time spent. I don't know of a better deal than 8 runs for $55 on a ~60 second course that usually only takes up 3-4 hours of your day.

I have to keep reminding myself to be patient :) We saw a trickle of participation in 2015 with a lot more participation in 2016 (mostly as guests). I'm hoping 2017 will be even better and that some of the guests from this year come out more regularly.
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