Regular/Time only/X runs

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Ira Cruz
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Regular/Time only/X runs

Post by Ira Cruz » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:52 pm

Last event was a great one! As Bryan H said wish had 1 more run.

We have gotten used to the 4 runs per entry, I know the extra run was a bonus due to lesser entries, capacity of timing system to run more cars at the same time, daylight savings time... But also it can also be bad when the event goes till dark or when no one else can help for clean up. I know there is a magic number to make it a 3 or 4 run event.

My suggestion is not to have X runs(2nd entry). Last event we had 22 x runs(2nd entry) and June's event had 30 x run entries at 4 runs each causing the event to run too late.
If the idea of x runs is to generate extra funds, I suggest we just increase the entry fees by $5 and have 4 runs. If the number of entries is below the threshold to run the
event till it gets too dark, then add 1 more run (total 5) and add $2. Doing the math is a win-win situation for the event organizer.

Yes nationals only gives us 3 runs, but I have read some where that it can be programmed that best time is from the first 3 runs. We can give input on this situation
and come up with concession on this matter.

Cheers!

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Rick Brown
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Re: Regular/Time only/X runs

Post by Rick Brown » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:01 am

Adding 1 more run would have added an hour and a half to the event. No X-Runs would have saved about 30 minutes. We did in fact reduce the number of X-Runs we allowed at the June event. Timing system is not an issue, it can time up to 7 cars at once. A lot of factors go into the number of runs and the decision is discussed among several people, although the event master has final say. Biggest factors are number of entries and amount of daylight, and since not everyone pre-registers, and the decision has to be before the first run, we have to allow for the walk ups. Don't forget, most of the core workers are first to get there and last to leave both days. Many of us leave in the dark. While the extra income from X-Runs is nice, this time of year many of the X-Run users are people getting ready for Nationals and use the extra runs to help prep their cars.
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Craig Naylor
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Re: Regular/Time only/X runs

Post by Craig Naylor » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:15 am

When we were at 300+ entries, we were running many, many, more runs per day than we are now.

Our biggest issue is worker turn over. At the June event both morning worker tun overs exceed 30 minutes. That was a lost hour (actually it was closer to 1.25hrs) of runs. At a leisurely 1 car ever 30 sec, that was 150 runs lost; or at an optimal 1 car every 20 sec, 225 runs lost. That was just in the morning. That time lost IN JUT THE MORNING was enough to cover EVERY x-run taken in June all day, in the morning alone.

Before runs go away, we need to work on efficiencies.
- Worker turn over.
With three run groups, we could re-order so we only have ONE run group that runs immediately before they work, we currently have two.
Changing workers on the fly would save considerable time.
We used to deliver/ retrieve workers to the farther reaches of the course w a pickup, this would also save considerable time.
- limit X runs to 1 per driver. We have some people who purchase multiple X runs.

Clean up
These issues are somewhat self inflicted by a few of those "core workers".
- NEARLY ALL events used to be club hosted. This used to fall on the clubs.
Current Board management has altered that to being mostly Eboard hosted events.
However for Eboard events
Every club is supposed to provide two workers to assist with clean up post event for Eboard events. If this is not in the Sups'. it should be added.
We have 7 official clubs. That's 14 people... in addition to the 10 or so named Event chiefs. 20+ people should make quick work of clean up.
Add to the sups a fine to clubs who don't provide their 2 people for E-board events.
Eboard events used to have different people work some positions on Sat & Sunday. Current management wants the same people to work both days. This eliminates people who don't do Sat events, myself included.

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Will Kalman
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Re: Regular/Time only/X runs

Post by Will Kalman » Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:31 am

When we were at ~300 entries, we were running eight groups which really helped worker changes since nobody was in a situation where they were working/running immediately after running/working and could show up to work before the prior group finished.

Jake Stumph
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Re: Regular/Time only/X runs

Post by Jake Stumph » Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:04 pm

Agreed on worker turn over being a big issue. Coming from the Ohio Valley Region, where the average event would have comparable attendance (~200), if we got less than 5 runs, we left feeling gypped.
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Marshall Grice
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Re: Regular/Time only/X runs

Post by Marshall Grice » Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:40 pm

Jake Stumph wrote:Agreed on worker turn over being a big issue. Coming from the Ohio Valley Region, where the average event would have comparable attendance (~200), if we got less than 5 runs, we left feeling gypped.
the main constraint is that we run two half days back to back. if we allowed running and working on opposite sides of lunch we could more optimally assign work groups to get more runs.

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George Schilling
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Re: Regular/Time only/X runs

Post by George Schilling » Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:17 am

Here's a thought that we could implement with a 200ish turnout.

run/work
1 3
2 4
3 1
4 2
lunch
5 6
6 5
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Bill Martin
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Re: Regular/Time only/X runs

Post by Bill Martin » Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:30 am

Obviously 8 run groups has some advantages. The two big disadvantages would be more frequent change overs and worker count. I don't know where we stand on worker count, but I would think change on the fly, which is not as easy as you would think due to compliance, might somehow be worked out.

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Rick Brown
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Re: Regular/Time only/X runs

Post by Rick Brown » Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:53 am

The problem with George's idea is lunch would be @ 2pm unless we start earlier. Afternoon people still have to show up before noon to tech and register. Not convinced we would gain anything. Since in the current system 4 of the 6 groups are working after they run, we just need to get people to park their and cars and report to work as soon as they finish their last run. Should be almost like on-the-fly if we get better cooperation from the drivers. Those coming off course should have prepped their cars before working so they only have to get in grid. We can only do so much as event management.

At El Toro, we would not have enough workers with the current number of entries and 8 groups. Some groups are a little light with 6 groups. Of course somewhat course design dependent, but the sheer size of the facility is an issue to cover safely. Also, if you are light on workers you often have to send cars less often so there is time to pick up cones. At Auto Club Speedway you can get by with fewer workers since the area is more compact, but turnouts are generally lower there.
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Randy Gonzalez
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Re: Regular/Time only/X runs

Post by Randy Gonzalez » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:01 pm

Interesting thread. It should be mandatory reading for all event attendees. The logistics of these events present some tough issues, and the people behind the scenes are already working their tails off. Although participants being on time for work assignments seems to be an issue that everybody can help out with with a little awareness.

As a solution to the worker issues, maybe we can borrow some ideas from PCA. They have a colored flag system that is visible from all over the paddock (and to workers out on course). Very easy to tell which group is running and which group is next up (and when you have to work). Basically top flag color is group running, next flag down the pole is in "pre-grid", and next flag down should be getting ready to move to pre-grid, etc. Of course that system falls apart a bit when somebody isn't keeping on top of the flags (which seems to happen now and then), so it's got some weaknesses. Either way, the group run/work changeovers are a continuous flow (with a little blending as each group thins out toward the end of its runs). It keeps the event moving and cars running constantly...although I realize that might create some issues in timing and scoring (and announcing results) within our system (co-drivers getting their runs in during the group, X runs, etc.). Again, maybe not a solution to our issues, but just throwing out some ideas to hopefully spark some more thoughts.

Either way, I do know it's sometimes difficult at our events to know what's going on and where we are in the schedule, especially in the giant El Toro paddocks where you can't really hear announcements from the motorhome. I typically have to limit my naps to 15 mins so I can get up and check with the grid person to see where we are in the run groups! :roll:

I've often wondered if there was a better way to handle registration for afternoon participants. Having to be at the registration table before noon, and then having the event run late and not getting out of there until 7:30 because you're running or working in the last group means a 7-8 hour commitment....a lot of time for only 3 runs. I don't mind because I've got lots of friends out there to hang out with and love doing this....but for a more casual participant, that might be a tough sell. I don't really have any solutions to offer to this problem, but it might be something else to consider as part of this discussion. Of course most of the folks in this discussion are there from before sun up and typically the last folks to leave, so this might be a moot point next to their dedication to our group.

Again, I don't have any solutions to solve the OP's problem, but I'm glad to see our group always working to improve. :D

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Bill Martin
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Re: Regular/Time only/X runs

Post by Bill Martin » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:04 pm

Rick Brown wrote:At El Toro, we would not have enough workers with the current number of entries and 8 groups. Some groups are a little light with 6 groups. Of course somewhat course design dependent, but the sheer size of the facility is an issue to cover safely. Also, if you are light on workers you often have to send cars less often so there is time to pick up cones. At Auto Club Speedway you can get by with fewer workers since the area is more compact, but turnouts are generally lower there.
I'm sure you know what you're talking about, but 224 people divided by 8 = 28 workers per group. I know we suck people off to work gate, and safety and this and that. But it seems odd we can't net enough to work a group starting with 28.

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Rick Brown
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Re: Regular/Time only/X runs

Post by Rick Brown » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:37 pm

Bill Martin wrote:
Rick Brown wrote:At El Toro, we would not have enough workers with the current number of entries and 8 groups. Some groups are a little light with 6 groups. Of course somewhat course design dependent, but the sheer size of the facility is an issue to cover safely. Also, if you are light on workers you often have to send cars less often so there is time to pick up cones. At Auto Club Speedway you can get by with fewer workers since the area is more compact, but turnouts are generally lower there.
I'm sure you know what you're talking about, but 224 people divided by 8 = 28 workers per group. I know we suck people off to work gate, and safety and this and that. But it seems odd we can't net enough to work a group starting with 28.
There are typically 15 to 18 in the Exempt category, which is where I put people on MSR that are not regular workers such as Chiefs, setup, tech, so I can see the actual available course workers per group. That's how I decide to adjust the work groups prior to the event. After subtracting them, then there are 4 people in Timing, plus time slips and grid. And the 224 with times includes the X-Runs who don't work.
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George Schilling
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Re: Regular/Time only/X runs

Post by George Schilling » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:34 pm

George Schilling wrote:Here's a thought that we could implement with a 200ish turnout.

run/work
1 3
2 4
3 1
4 2
lunch
5 6
6 5
or this :)

run/work
1 2
2 1
lunch
3 5
4 6
5 3
6 4

This wold have to come with strict limit on TO entries the first two groups to prevent stacking. But the afternoon groups could be run with virtually zero down time.

Eight groups optimizes the entire day, but we'd have to see a 240 pre-reg before considering a move in that direction.
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Ira Cruz
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Re: Regular/Time only/X runs

Post by Ira Cruz » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:18 pm

Good facts and ideas everybody!

Still does not fix problem of going over in case we have too much entries. No one has commented on taking out second entry X runs. Which will
definitely lessen the load. Sunday's should be kept for competition or those who just want to do Time Only runs (1 entry only). We have Saturday's
for practice/car setup tuning and others.

There were events in the past that we had fun runs before lunch or if event finishes early in the afternoon. But maybe just finishing early will be better
for the afternoon group.

Cheers!

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Craig Naylor
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Re: Regular/Time only/X runs

Post by Craig Naylor » Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:14 pm

It's not rocket science

We currently run, then work. Doing this we wait for people to put their cars away to get on course... before we can send cars from the next group out.

If we worked, then ran...
Workers are headed out the moment... or before the prior group finishes. With workers on course, cars can run as soon as they show up in grid.

We wait for all (or 90+%) the workers to start run groups now, cars are sitting in grid waiting.

Doing the above, cars car run as soon, or shortly after they arrive in grid. We don't need 90+% of sitting in grid, to send a car out.

Run/Work
1/3
2/1
3/2

4/6
5/4
6/5

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