Practice Run Group Poll

[KJ Christopher]

I've added Option 4, work once, run in twice. You'll need to vote again.

There has been some discussion on work sessions at the practice. In order to get a sense if opinions have shifted over time, please select your preference for a practice format.

Option 1


Option 2


Option 3


Option 4

[Sean Fenstermacher]

Hey KJ. I assume you will be able to see who votes for what.
If possible, members who typically do not actually work course should not have their votes count, imo.

People who don't work course due to chief duties or sit in an air conditioned trailer announcing vs those standing or chasing cones will most likely have very different view points and not nearly providing the same amount of physical effort.

For those having a hard time deciphering these charts, here is a quick summary of each option:

Option 1: 5 run groups. Work 1 shift per day of 1hr50mins. Run 4 times, 3 runs each time (12 runs total)

Option 2: 4 run groups. Work 2 shifts per day of 1hr10mins. Run 2 times, 6 runs each time (12 runs total)

Option 3: 5 run groups. Work 2 shifts per day of 55mins. Run 2 times, 6 runs each time (12 runs total)

[KJ Christopher]

Hey KJ. I assume you will be able to see who votes for what.

Nope. No idea.

People who don't work course due to chief duties or sit in an air conditioned trailer announcing vs those standing or chasing cones will most likely have very different view points and not nearly providing the same amount of physical effort.

For those having a hard time deciphering these charts, here is a quick summary of each option:

Option 1: 5 run groups. Work 1 shift per day of 1hr50mins. Run 4 times, 3 runs each time (12 runs total)

Option 2: 4 run groups. Work 2 shifts per day of 1hr10mins. Run 2 times, 6 runs each time (12 runs total)

Option 3: 5 run groups. Work 2 shifts per day of 55mins. Run 2 times, 6 runs each time (12 runs total)

Some observations/background:
We frequently do a 3*2 or 4*2 work format. The biggest factor in this decision is the number of people available, which feeds how many we have working course. Change-overs are disruptive to the flow of an event, so we generally prefer to have fewer of them. However, a 4*2 format allows for changing on the fly, so it is actually less disruptive than the 3*2, which always has sessions where you're waiting on drivers to park then work, or workers to get their cars to run.

Once you get critical mass on worker levels, a 5*1 format can give the best of both worlds: fewer change overs AND less total time working for each course worker. (As demonstrated in the times listed above.) But it is a longer session all at once. Outside of these two dates (July/August), the total time is typically 90-ish minutes. And feedback in prior years has indicated that the majority of people wanted to get it done once and forget about it.

At the last practice, we decided to see if we could accommodate more people. Had we not, a significant number of people would not have made it in. Core people, out-of-towners, friends of the region, etc. And since we knew demand for the August practice would be similar (and daylight existed to actually let them in), we decided to bring them in and see how it worked. The 5*1 format was chosen as it resulted in 30 minutes less time working for everyone and fewer breaks in the day for changeover. Of course, that bumped our normal 90 minutes up to 110 minutes, and that increase crossed the comfort line of a few people. So in response, we're reaching out to see just how many people that is. We'll probably do more of these in the future to keep tabs on how people are leaning.

My Personal Stance:
When I started in the sport, I always preferred the practices that had a work once format. Just preferred to get it done and moving on. Plus, as I'm an accountant I could do math and noticed that this format always resulted in me spending less time working. As an event organizer/chief, I prefer the work once format for two reasons: Less event stoppage and less work time for the entrants. I prefer 4*2 over 5*2 purely due to the event stoppage factor.

[Guy Walker]

i like the idea of work once to get it done, but i don't like the 2 hour workshifts and the 4 short 3 run groups.

purple (group 5) plan:
3 runs in an hour, park the car for an hour, 3 runs in an hour, park the car for an hour, 3 runs in an hour, park the car for an hour, go work for 2 hours.

purple (group 5) reality:
3 runs in 30 minutes, park the car for an hour and a half (catch a couple rides with friends or neat new cars that show up), 3 runs in 30 minutes, park the car for an hour and a half, 3 runs in 30 minutes, park the car for an hour and a half, 3 runs in 30 minutes, park the car for 30 minutes... then go work for 2+ hours (including course or clock delays).

i haven't yet voted and i'm still considering all 3 options, but i feel like i'm trying to find the least objectionable format instead of the best of the best. practices just haven't been fun for me over the past few months.

PS: i'm sorry... i know i'm not presenting any ideas and it sounds like i'm complaining... but that is honestly how practices of late seem to me.

[KJ Christopher]

it sounds like i'm complaining

No to me. And I guess it doesn't surprise me that you're one who gets the 3 runs done quickly. You're one of those almost always ready to go, so when the grid guy is looking for someone not tinkering on his car or chatting it up, it's easy to send you.

I was going to make a comment about the benefit of hitching rides with friends and new cars, but I guess you have the ability to do that regardless of whether we run four times or run twice.

If there was an option of working once and having two run sessions instead of four, would you need to think as hard? It's actually easy to convert option 3 into option 4- let me do that and add it.

[Craig Naylor]

I haven't done practices in a long time... and rarely when I did. It's probably been 10+ years since any club in the region offered such... But I personally liked 1/2 day's. Work/run morning or afternoon. Sure Reg and Tech have to be open twice. They usually consisted of 8-10 runs rather than 12, but most participants still got a half day to do other things.

[Guy Walker]

it sounds like i'm complaining

No to me. And I guess it doesn't surprise me that you're one who gets the 3 runs done quickly. You're one of those almost always ready to go, so when the grid guy is looking for someone not tinkering on his car or chatting it up, it's easy to send you.

I was going to make a comment about the benefit of hitching rides with friends and new cars, but I guess you have the ability to do that regardless of whether we run four times or run twice.

If there was an option of working once and having two run sessions instead of four, would you need to think as hard? It's actually easy to convert option 3 into option 4- let me do that and add it.

that is better! but we are still pushing a single 2 hour workgroup. i personnally believe that 90 mins should be the max for a single workgroup.

i know there are tech and reg duplication, but i like the idea of 1 90 min work group, 2 45 min run groups with a 1/2 day commitment

something like this...
1,2
1,3

2,3
2,1

3,1
3,2

carts

4,5
4,6

5,6
5,4

6,4
6,5

[Ira Cruz]

it sounds like i'm complaining

that is better! but we are still pushing a single 2 hour workgroup. i personnally believe that 90 mins should be the max for a single workgroup.

i know there are tech and reg duplication, but i like the idea of 1 90 min work group, 2 45 min run groups with a 1/2 day commitment

something like this...
1,2
1,3

2,3
2,1

3,1
3,2

carts

4,5
4,6

5,6
5,4

6,4
6,5

I like this!

[Jonathan Lugod]

I haven't done practices in a long time... and rarely when I did. It's probably been 10+ years since any club in the region offered such... But I personally liked 1/2 day's. Work/run morning or afternoon. Sure Reg and Tech have to be open twice. They usually consisted of 8-10 runs rather than 12, but most participants still got a half day to do other things.

I don't think it does anyone any good to run 8 to 10 runs straight. Especially when gearing up for Nationals.

[KJ Christopher]

something like this...
1,2
1,3

2,3
2,1

3,1
3,2

carts

4,5
4,6

5,6
5,4

6,4
6,5

We do use this format (3*2) when we're lower on headcount. The event will literally stop moving for 20 minutes as we do change-overs. It is so inefficient that we try to get to a 4*2 or a 5*1 as quickly as possible. I haven't gone back to look over the maths, so this is a pure guess, but I suspect we'd have to drop 15-20 people from the entry list. We'd rather not do that for this event.

A 1/2 day commitment is something that competitors could (and DO) work out with their other competitors. But that does require an X*2 work format. Good point.

[Steve Abbott]

Some organizations have no work. Let's take a poll on hiring workers and pay an X amount to cover it.

[KJ Christopher]

Some organizations have no work. Let's take a poll on hiring workers and pay an X amount to cover it.

We've made a deliberate decision to avoid employer/employee relationships.

[George Schilling]

Interesting idea Guy. It won't work for this event. But the concept of splitting the day as you suggested is interesting for days where there is plenty of daylight and high demand. It's certainly worthy of a feasibility study for use in the future. Thanks for taking the time to think about it and make a proposal. Greatly appreciated!

Thinking about the best format for the upcoming event, those of you testing for nationals, if you have 12 runs available and could split them up using multiples of three only, would you prefer 3,6,3 or 6,6 or 3,3,3,3. On another thread Pete seem to think two 6's is best. What if we would give you two 6's run at a leisurely pace. Would that work? By leisurely pace, I mean a run every 17 - 18 minutes.

Since everything is a compromise, understanding all points of view is important. So please share what's important to you and why. And please remember, no matter what format we come up with, not all will be satisfied, so please be understanding.

[George Schilling]

Some organizations have no work. Let's take a poll on hiring workers and pay an X amount to cover it.

Those groups are probably "for profit" groups not run by volunteers. If we were a for profit company, we would weigh that option in relation to profitability and make a decision accordingly. As a club made up of volunteers, there is much more to consider. Volunteers are much less willing to take bold steps like this one as it would certainly have an affect on attendance and change us from a grass roots organization to a group seeking more of a PCA type crowd. I have no doubt that there is a market for what you suggest Steve, but I'm not sure it's right for us.

[Jayson Woodruff]

Some organizations have no work. Let's take a poll on hiring workers and pay an X amount to cover it.

It's not as easy as I make it look ;)

Seriously though, I always have trouble finding quality workers to cover a small course. SCCA courses and drivers tendency to hit a lot more cones means you'd need 3 to 4 times the workers. You'd simply never find them.


Also, keep in mind the phenomen of practice drivers going home early. Option 3 that is being favored isn't condusive to that. Even if "required" to work afternoon shifts, if say 30% of your guys will disappear increasing the workload quite a bit.

It's not popular, but shorter, less technical courses are ways to require less work.

Jay W

[Jason Rhoades]

I gotta say that was probably the best practice I've ever been to. The run group thing confused my wimpy brain a little but when it was done I got a ton of runs and realize I didn't spend a lot of time wondering where I was supposed to be when.

Cal Club has come a long way in event operations, this was nothing like how I remember it from the mid 2000's. Great job everyone.

[George Schilling]

I gotta say that was probably the best practice I've ever been to. The run group thing confused my wimpy brain a little but when it was done I got a ton of runs and realize I didn't spend a lot of time wondering where I was supposed to be when.

Cal Club has come a long way in event operations, this was nothing like how I remember it from the mid 2000's. Great job everyone.

Thanks for the compliment Jason. As one of the core organizers, it's great to get feedback, both good and bad. The fact that your feed back was positive let's me know we are on the right track.