When do Juniors run on Sunday?

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Steve Ekstrand
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When do Juniors run on Sunday?

Postby Steve Ekstrand » Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:45 pm

Pardon me if I'm a little hostile and frustrated....

But when are Juniors supposed to run on Sunday? Are you sure? Really really sure? Glad we have a small field. I don't know when the four entered think they are running. I suspect in the afternoon. Although I've been telling people the morning. I thought it was the morning. But Friday night and the posted run order still says the end of the day. That means at this point we have to run the end of the day.

And on Sunday, do not expect the Youth Steward to allow inexperienced walk-up competitors to run in the afternoon without completing course walks in the morning.

If you are a junior parent reading this, the ONLY opportunity for course walks will be in the morning before the start of all competition. THERE WILL NOT BE AN OPPORTUNITY TO WALK AT LUNCH!!!! Inexperienced junior competitors are required to make a course walk. They really should be doing TWO course walks. All competitors are strongly recommended to make a course walk regardless of experience. Not trying to be a hardass. This is just common sense, and we don't cut corners anywhere in SCCA Solo, but especially not in the Junior Program.
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Randy Gonzalez
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Re: When do Juniors run on Sunday?

Postby Randy Gonzalez » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:18 am

Hey Steve,

First of all, my apologies for not addressing this correctly in the event communications.

Per our discussions last event: I thought we agreed that we didn't want to run the kids intermingled with the cars at all, so we would like to try and run the juniors before first car out. Specifically at 8:45am. A few non-karters expressed a concern for hot lapping the kids and not giving them ample time for adjustments, etc. between runs, but in my discussions with you, you indicated that you thought it would be in the best interest of the kids to keeps them separate from the cars and not just sitting around while we try to run a whole group of cars for a lap (i.e. if we had tried to feed the kids in between a group of the cars). So, my thinking is....even if we space the kids runs out with a 5 minute gap between each run, we'd still get all the kids through their 4 runs in just over 20 minutes....so we'd be done about 9:05 or 9:10 at the latest.

So....as our Youth Steward for this event, does that still work for you? If so, let's formalize that plan and at least give it a shot this event. I'm happy to reach out to all the kart parents individually and make sure they're in the loop (or since you know them all, I'd welcome any assistance in getting the word out).

Again, sorry for the confusion and lack of communication on the subject. Karts have been a plug and play on the lunch break for so many years, we typically don't even think about that group. As Event Master, I did make it a point to get with you to make a plan last event, but I confess, I did drop the ball on communication of the new kart plan to our members.

I've been working closely with the rest of the staff for this event to really give this new time format a sincere try. I've had individual discussion with Worker Chief, Reg, Tech, Gate, and Timing. I've asked that all of our chiefs to please be as flexible as possible to make sure we quickly address any issues that arise out of the new format. I now realize I didn't follow back up with you, and I hopefully we can get this issue resolved ASAP. :thumbup:

I'll find you (if you're at the practice today....I thought I saw Robert signed up), or I'll call you and we can address any concerns you have.
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David Barrish
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Re: When do Juniors run on Sunday?

Postby David Barrish » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:28 am

When making changes to long standing business practices please understand the unintended consequences will have lots of logistical impact.

In this case, junior karting is a family event. With family involved logistics. I am very lucky that my wife is signed on, wait for the "but", to what it takes to involve our child in an activity that I love to do. She is supportive but has no desire to drive a car at an event, herself. Having a predictable Sunday pattern of activity, knowing that when I drive is changing every event, requires that she drive the car that has the trailer already hooked up and loaded with the kart required gear already to go. That is waiting for her at the storage facility in Redlands, that opens at 9:00. Yes, we live in Lake Arrowhead.

Yes, when it's available, the motor home is part of the logistical mix. But, there it is, nothing requires that she arrive before 10:00. Moving back from that number is gong to involve changing things that have been tolerated up to this point.

Please look around and take in informal poll of how many intact family units are coming out to our events. I have a race team to coordinate, that includes a wonderful supportive spouse and a twelve year old. Please do not "poke the bear".

And until you have kids and figure a way to stay married for 30 years, you might not get the "Please no not....." part.

Thank you.

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Re: When do Juniors run on Sunday?

Postby Randy Gonzalez » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:56 am

Hey David,

Nothing is "cast in stone" at this point. I'm just trying to make sure we have a successful smooth running event. Again, with the new format, we probably didn't handle you kart families properly. But that being said, let's get this worked out. It's really not the clubs intention to create any issues with the kart families. I'll get with you and Steve today (and any other kart families that are there) and we'll get this worked out. Running at lunch tomorrow is fine for me as well. The 8:45 proposal is something Steve and I discussed at the last event. Obviously it wasn't fully flushed out.

Let's all talk today, get a decision, and then get the word out to all the kart families! :thumbup:
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Stacey Miller
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Re: When do Juniors run on Sunday?

Postby Stacey Miller » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:17 am

This is Steve on Stacey’s account since I still can’t manage to log in to the site on devices.

The reason for having the kids run first under this Sunday format is because there is no lunch break. Kids have to show at 7:30 or so to walk, then are stuck til everybody is done to run. I know the parents. They won’t get their kids there in the morning. Me included. And for some kids a course walk done 5hours before running is pointless.

I’m not a huge fan of running early. Unless I come Saturday, I have to break local laws and risk a ticket to get on site before 8:30. So, morning is not ideal. But, Stacey and I thought the options through last month and came to the conclusion that not running first under the new format was going to be a problem.

Stacey pointed out the error in the run order weeks ago. That was why I was frustrated when I she screamed at me last night about the run order posted. We had wanted people to have nearly a month to plan. Now I think we have to run the end of Day, because that is what we have had posted for a month. At least it’s not a large field and no inexperienced kids are entered.

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Anthony Porta
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Re: When do Juniors run on Sunday?

Postby Anthony Porta » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:27 pm

Steve Ekstrand wrote:Pardon me if I'm a little hostile and frustrated....

But when are Juniors supposed to run on Sunday? Are you sure? Really really sure?


It's ok to feel frustrated and hostile. The event master doesnt make the Run groups... So that requires more communication and a hey to timing and scoring wizard Rick Brown to change them to the AM. I PM'd you on OCT 21st about when to run the kids karts, It was talked about on the November call, so I hope the region has kept up the contact. I thought based on our message what Randy has been saying that it was known that the Jr's were running first. Again, im sure Randy is glad to run the Kids Karts whenever makes the most sense with the new format.

Randy Gonzalez wrote:Hey David,
Nothing is "cast in stone" at this point. I'm just trying to make sure we have a successful smooth running event.


Very much this. and that includes smooth running Jr karts.
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Randy Gonzalez
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Re: When do Juniors run on Sunday?

Postby Randy Gonzalez » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:26 am

To be absolutely clear about today:

Per my discussions with Steve and David yesterday, we'll be running karts after the cars. Roughly at lunch time....depending on when the cars finish. We'll give the kids some time to do a course walk and then run them right after.

This will in essence create a very short lunch break for any cars that are planning on staying for the free fun runs and wish to go grab a quick bite (we're talking drive through and bring it back)!

Kids grid will be kept separate from car grid (i.e. they will stage up by the motorhome like we typically do) and we'll be able to load grid for the car's fun runs as soon as grid has been cleared after competition runs. Cars will start fun runs once Steve (the Youth Steward) has "cleared" the kids from their grid and let's us know we can have the course again for the cars.

I will make an effort to get with all the kart parents on site today and come to consensus as how they would like to handle karts in the future (assuming we continue with this new format for smaller crowds...or come up with different formats going forward). :thumbup:
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Steve Ekstrand
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Re: When do Juniors run on Sunday?

Postby Steve Ekstrand » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:26 pm

Understand please that I'm not being difficult because of convenience or preference. I'm trying to follow a national rulebook. We didn't have any inexperienced so it made this easy. Inexperienced karters require two course walks. It's been routinely suggested that we can speed up the process by doing lead-follows. There needs to be at least one guided walk so hazards can be pointed out by a knowledgeable person. I think a mix of a single guided walk and lead-follow could work. I'm not a 100% sure it fits the national rules though. I think it does. I've consulted with our DSSS in the past and he thought it was a reasonable practice. I did, however, try to get it specifically mentioned in the National rules and got a "thank you for your input".

I'm concerned about having the guided walk conducted only in the morning. On Sunday, Robert's walk was more than 5 hours before he ran. But he has 9 years of experience and is one of the best course readers in our region of any age. Worked fine for him. I'm worried about new kids and very young kids.

Based on Sunday, I would say running last can work if we allow the extra time for a walk at "lunch" as we did this time. Inexperienced kids can have guided walk that way close to when they run. If needed, we can do a lead follow which would add an additional 4 minutes or so, but should only be necessary with inexperienced participants. Sunday is competition, so a lead-follow is generally frowned on, but it is at very low speed (but greater than walking speed. And of course, addditonal walks are always available in the morning or sometimes the night before. The main point here is I think we can make this work with a 20-minute delay for a course walk right before juniors run. I think it would be inappropriate to make that happen only when we are running on time. The only exception to this is that with experienced drivers who don't need to be guided necessarily maybe we could speed things up with a lead-follow only. Remember that any driver wishing an opportunity to walk can show up in the morning or stay til end of day on Saturday. That just isn't an option for the newbies.
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Rick Brown
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Re: When do Juniors run on Sunday?

Postby Rick Brown » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:15 pm

From my stand point it seemed to work out fine. The time for course walk after the cars run gives time for everyone wanting in the free fun runs to get to grid and have their driver meeting.
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