More New Vehicle Talk

[Steve Ekstrand]

Since Bob has taken the post lead, I thought I'd start another ASW posting thread....


Stacey is quite jealous of me getting the new truck. Its the first time I have gotten the first arrival on the new car replacement cycle. I usually get her handmedowns.

She wants a 2009 BMW 335i Coupe. But.....

I was talking gas mileage with dad today. He's really eyeing the performance and mileage of the new 335d's coming in 2009. Exact pricing hasn't been set yet for those. But first orders are starting. The d only comes in the Sedan at first. Stacey wanted a coupe.

The 335i is supposed to have Premium, though Regular won't hurt the engine (just reduce power). The dif between Diesel and Premium is more like 5% from what I saw this morning. If mileage is 25% better then the d is a huge winner!

Makes it something to think about.

[Kurt Rahn]

From what I've read, the D has so much torque, it's very close in performance to a gas engine (though probably not the 335i, which kicks ass). Problem with the D (depending on your proclivities) is that the engine song isn't as melodious, since you're shifting at MUCH lower RPMs.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

Since Bob has taken the post lead, I thought I'd start another ASW posting thread....


Stacey is quite jealous of me getting the new truck. Its the first time I have gotten the first arrival on the new car replacement cycle. I usually get her handmedowns.

She wants a 2009 BMW 335i Coupe. But.....

I was talking gas mileage with dad today. He's really eyeing the performance and mileage of the new 335d's coming in 2009. Exact pricing hasn't been set yet for those. But first orders are starting. The d only comes in the Sedan at first. Stacey wanted a coupe.

The 335i is supposed to have Premium, though Regular won't hurt the engine (just reduce power). The dif between Diesel and Premium is more like 5% from what I saw this morning. If mileage is 25% better then the d is a huge winner!

Makes it something to think about.

The d will have more torque. But you knew that.

[Curt Luther]

Is the "d" actually coming out soon? If so, get it on order now. Even if Stacy doesn't like it, I bet you can sell it for a premium later and then go ahead and get her the 335is.

[Steve Ekstrand]

The 335i is rated 17/26
The 335d is rated 23/33

So, that is even better than I thought. Certainly, more than outweighs the current diesel premium.

BTW-Just like HP numbers, BMW seems to be conservative here. I here a lot of people beating these numbers soundly. My buddy in his 335i manual coupe gets 30+ on his 85mph highway blasts to vegas and back.

[Robert Puertas]

The last two times I've been to Europe I've had diesel rental cars. A Fiat in Italy and an Audi in the UK.
I would buy the diesel in a heartbeat.
The Audi A4 2.0 tdi is a fantastic car, and I can only imagine the new BMW is going to be amazing.
Plus, these things are a reflash away from being absolute monsters.
One of my business associates in the UK has a new diesel Mercedes that has a brabus reflash and it is ludicrously fast.
They also have a little VW tdi cargo van that is frankly terrifying.

BTW - I got 40 mpg in the A4, and almost 50 in the Fiat minivan thing.

[John Coffey]

Years ago I was in Germany for work and I had a Passat Diesel Wagon 5 speed as my rental car. I was very impressed with the Euro version of the 1.9TDI (except for the the 189kmh top speed) and I would be happy with a Golf powered by that engine as a daily driver. I imagine new diesel engines are much better then that TDI.

[Curt Luther]

I really want a 120d 5 door. I just don't wanna move across an ocean to get one...

[Steve Ekstrand]

Yup... The hatch competes to directly with Mini sales....

Which with gas right now, are apparently through the perverbial roof again.

[David Avard]

Didn't Car and Driver get something like 40mpg when they tested a 330d? Of course, the US gets the twin-turbo version with only 265hp and 425 lb.ft of torque (in europe, the get 282hp, but not Bluetec), as BMW apparently though no one in the US would buy a diesel with only 228hp.

But that price comparison doesn't work here in Kansas, where diesel is usually about 25+% more than gas (usually $0.80-1.00 more). And that margin seems to stay pretty consistent independent of gas prices (when gas was $2.59, diesel was $3.39, now with gas at $3.89, diesel in $4.69). Although diesel doesn't have the daily price fluctuations that gas does, which can go up and down $0.10-0.15/day, although usually more quickly going up.

[Kurt Rahn]

Yup... The hatch competes to directly with Mini sales....

It may be intended by BMW in their wildest dreams to compete with Mini sales (though probably not, since they own Mini) but the 1 is a different type of car and in a completely different class. One of the big gripes about the 1 is it weighs almost as much as the 3. I don't have specs on the Euro version of the 1, but given that it has five doors and a heavier diesel engine, I'm guessing it's even heavier than the 1 coupe we get here. The 128's curb weight is 3252 and the 135's is 3373. The 328 sedan's curb weight is 3340 and the 335 sedan's is 3594 (ironically, the sedan weighs less than the coupe). The Mini Cooper weighs in at 2546 and the S I just test drove weighs 2668.

More significant is the fact that the base of a 128 is the The Cooper is $18,050 and the S is $21,200. A stripper 128 is 28,600, and a twin turbo diesel would likely cost more than the 135's $34,900 sticker. Also, anyone who's ever priced out a Bimmer knows that the options escalate the price very quickly. I priced out s Cooper S with all kinds of goodies on it for about $26,000.

Much heavier + much more expensive = no direct competition. The only thing that'll be similar is the mileage, but the car, and the buyers it attracts, will be different.

[Curt Luther]

OK, gimme a Clubman with the diesel they offer in Europe.

If I had 25K to spend on a Mini S, I might be inclined to spend the extra 5-10K for a 128/135. I like it better and it's a real BMW. Both are way heavier than each of my Civics so that doesn't bother me. As far as autocross potential...dunno, but missing an LSD has gotta hurt. For a daily driver? Gimme the Bimmer.

FWIW, the 120d I have pictured above comes right off the konfiguator at 30,775 euros. If they offered the same, for the same price in 'merican money, I bet they'd sell a lot.

[Kurt Rahn]

If I had 25K to spend on a Mini S, I might be inclined to spend the extra 5-10K for a 128/135

Ah yes, but you gotta 'member that's a total stripper (ever been on a BMW lot and tried to find one of those?). You'd be paying close to $10K more for a real-world 128 and $15K more for a real-world 135. That's a considerable amount more green.

Also, given the car's weight, it's not optimum for autocross. Believe me, the 135 was one of the cars on my short list, but driving Moby Dick, I've quickly become a convert to the idea that weight is the enemy on an autocross course. On the highway, that's a different story. I'd be all over a 135 if I wasn't gonna autocross it.

BTW, the Mini offers a mechanical LSD, which was the first option I checked off on my dream Mini. I believe the BMW's uses the ABS system to perform the same purpose (Tho I could be wrong).

[Kurt Rahn]

FWIW, the 120d I have pictured above comes right off the konfiguator at 30,775 euros. If they offered the same, for the same price in 'merican money, I bet they'd sell a lot.

I bet they would too. But at the current exchange rate, that's $47,472. A tad steep for a 5-door compact. That's the problem with devalued currency. There are a lot of really cool European and Japanese cars that just won't sell over here for the price they'd have to ask.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

The BMW does use the ABS to emulate an LSD on the non-M models.

The issue you need to keep in mind is that the average buyer doesn't look at the numbers all that much. Horsepower, which they don't really understand, fuel economy, maybe cargo capacity but most probably eyeball it and price. The last item is the one that keeps the 120 away from Mini buyers in general. The 120 probably doesn't come here because of market expectations of what a BMW is and isn't. The 318 hatch was a flop, hence the 120 stays across the pond.

I'd bet there are some 335 owners who'd like to shed 200 pounds off the car, so I wouldn't ding the 135 alone for the weight, all BMWs have gotten a lot heavier over the past three generations.

You can't use the exchange rate to price cars in the U.S. market vs. the price in Euros. Cars aren't as expensive in dollars as they are in Euros in the EU markets. Not sure why, but that's what I've found when it comes to production cars. Exceptions of course for the low-production cars.

[Curt Luther]

FWIW, the 120d I have pictured above comes right off the konfiguator at 30,775 euros. If they offered the same, for the same price in 'merican money, I bet they'd sell a lot.

I bet they would too. But at the current exchange rate, that's $47,472. A tad steep for a 5-door compact. That's the problem with devalued currency. There are a lot of really cool European and Japanese cars that just won't sell over here for the price they'd have to ask.

Most prices on the konfiguator are just about equal, if not off 10% or so, euro to money. You'll find that for most cars sold, that are somewhat equal, in the world, euro and pound sterling to money.

So, yeah, a 120d for 31-35K in money would be quite nice, IMO.

[Curt Luther]

If I had 25K to spend on a Mini S, I might be inclined to spend the extra 5-10K for a 128/135

Ah yes, but you gotta 'member that's a total stripper (ever been on a BMW lot and tried to find one of those?). You'd be paying close to $10K more for a real-world 128 and $15K more for a real-world 135. That's a considerable amount more green.

The odds of finding a moderate, "correctly" optioned Mini on the lot are the same. About zero. The 135 I want would sticker at just under $37K. The 128 would be about $5k less. I would be willing to order and wait, just as I would with a Mini, to get what I want.

That being said, I ain't pissin' on the Mini. You can't argue with the autocross pedigree and they are cool. I almost bought one, and really wanted one, when I got the HS Civic. Warranty concerns and lack of dealers where I live and work killed the deal though. I pass 3 Honda dealers on my way to work everyday. There's not a Mini dealer within 90 miles of my house and 60 miles of my work. At least there's 2 BMW dealers within 30 miles of home and 1 within 10 miles of work if I'm ever that fortunate.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

FWIW, the 120d I have pictured above comes right off the konfiguator at 30,775 euros. If they offered the same, for the same price in 'merican money, I bet they'd sell a lot.

I bet they would too. But at the current exchange rate, that's $47,472. A tad steep for a 5-door compact. That's the problem with devalued currency. There are a lot of really cool European and Japanese cars that just won't sell over here for the price they'd have to ask.

Kurt, you're forgetting about stateside production. If the manufacturer thinks they can sell a car in this market they'll generally find a way. A lot of what we enthusiasts see as cool cars the manufacturers, rightly or wrongly, don't believe they can sell here.

The currency axe swings both ways. At this point, BMW is building diesel engines here for export to Europe. All the Xs are built here.

Getting back briefly to the currency valuation issues, if you think $42,472 is steep for a diesel 5 door consider the EX35. Starts at $35,450, but add the two most likely option packages and the $815 destination and you're already at $40,565 with a gasoline engine.

[Curt Luther]

Let's get this back on topic. You ordered that "d" for Stacy yet, Steve?