"Them" and "Us" ... Racing Orgs

Read at your own risk.

Moderator: Mike Simanyi

Post Reply
User avatar
Mako Koiwai
Posts: 6490
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:25 am
Club: SCNAX
Car#: 34
Location: South Pasadena, CA
Contact:

"Them" and "Us" ... Racing Orgs

Post by Mako Koiwai »

Those other guys have come long way. Good marshaling, terrific organization, VERY thorough Tech, EST (Emergency Spiritual Tech) on hand, great burgers (OK, a WSIR feature). As Jeff S said at the last our guys track event, "No offense but everyone here is old." The young folks, especially the Asian participants are all at the other guys events, ie. WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THEY'RE DOING to take away our future.

On the other hand, what made them attractive to a lot of folks, ie. run what you brung and we'll class it on a points system seems to have gotten out of hand. The rules have become so complicated in the popular Performance Touring class that Karen just entered in the top Super Unlimited class. There is a "minimum 'Adjusted Weight/Power' Ratio" for each competition class, but then it says dyno results are not mandatory, potentially "cheapening" the results.

But the main thing is that a LOT of folks are enjoying competitive safe racing, with trophies handed out minutes after the race. Up to 350 participants in a weekend vs. something like 90 at "our" last track event. Lots of our classes have only one or two participants. The only really full class is Spec Miata, and they only came back after "our" organizers agreed that they could Bump Draft if they want to (as long as they can field their own run group).

Our Nationals and Pro events seem to be doing well, but we've GOT TO keep the supply lines open.

Our Time Trials are very sporadic and incidental, not integrated into a program. At the last one Jeff said they only got two real sessions on Sat. The first one was only a Parade Lap situation. $200 for the weekend ... as compared to as many as five sessions a day with the other organizations.
User avatar
John Coffey
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:24 am
Club: PSCC
Car#: 250
Location: La Habra, CA
Contact:

Re: "Them" and "Us" ... Racing Orgs

Post by John Coffey »

If you read the posts in the IT forums by a STAC member the problem is with the people who don't run with SCCA. In his opinion those people should work within the SCCA system to make SCCA better and stop complaining about SCCA. The problem with that attitude is that those people don't want to be part of the SCCA system anymore and are just posting a goodbye message with the reasons they have left.
User avatar
Bobby Beyer
Posts: 356
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:52 pm

Re: "Them" and "Us" ... Racing Orgs

Post by Bobby Beyer »

How many PDX or HPDE events is our region holding this year?

As someone who wants to move from solo to open track racing myself my region isn't very appealing to get started. Unless I want to just straight into W2W racing there isn't a path forward for me. As you've said the Time Trials are few and far between with very little advertisement on the solo boards and looking at the calendar I don't even see a PDX event on the list. I would join a competitors organization only because its easier to get an idea of W2W racing with HPDE type events. I haven't been involved with the SCCA all that long but it honestly feels like it would be the difficult choice for getting started.
"Promise mediocrity. Deliver just slightly better." - Jarrett Bellini
Aaron Goldsmith
Posts: 2663
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 4:22 pm
Club: CASOC
Car#: 32
Location: HB, CA

Re: "Them" and "Us" ... Racing Orgs

Post by Aaron Goldsmith »

Bobby Beyer wrote:How many PDX or HPDE events is our region holding this year?

As someone who wants to move from solo to open track racing myself my region isn't very appealing to get started. Unless I want to just straight into W2W racing there isn't a path forward for me. As you've said the Time Trials are few and far between with very little advertisement on the solo boards and looking at the calendar I don't even see a PDX event on the list. I would join a competitors organization only because its easier to get an idea of W2W racing with HPDE type events. I haven't been involved with the SCCA all that long but it honestly feels like it would be the difficult choice for getting started.
Mako's post is actually pretty confusing, I had a hard time figuring out who us and them were, since I think none of them were Cal Club Solo. I dunno, the main Cal Club site probably has the info you're interested in. http://calclub.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
Kurt Rahn
Posts: 3923
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:29 am
Club: CASOC
Car#: 88
Location: Pasadena

Re: "Them" and "Us" ... Racing Orgs

Post by Kurt Rahn »

Aaron Goldsmith wrote:
Bobby Beyer wrote:How many PDX or HPDE events is our region holding this year?

As someone who wants to move from solo to open track racing myself my region isn't very appealing to get started. Unless I want to just straight into W2W racing there isn't a path forward for me. As you've said the Time Trials are few and far between with very little advertisement on the solo boards and looking at the calendar I don't even see a PDX event on the list. I would join a competitors organization only because its easier to get an idea of W2W racing with HPDE type events. I haven't been involved with the SCCA all that long but it honestly feels like it would be the difficult choice for getting started.
Mako's post is actually pretty confusing, I had a hard time figuring out who us and them were, since I think none of them were Cal Club Solo. I dunno, the main Cal Club site probably has the info you're interested in. http://calclub.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I agree...to me "us" is autocrossers and "them" is anyone else. There aren't a lot of autocross options outside of SCCA (in our area anyway).
==============
Oversteer is better than understeer because you don't see the tree you're hitting.
User avatar
Bobby Beyer
Posts: 356
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:52 pm

Re: "Them" and "Us" ... Racing Orgs

Post by Bobby Beyer »

I assumed he was talking about road racing and a orginization that has the same name of the govt agency that works with space.

For autox I would only run scca I've run with some other groups and while fun all had problems that in one way or another that kept me from going back.

I've gone on the calclub site and he's right there is 3-4 time trials this year all at buttonwillow (bleh) and no PDX/HPDE events. I like the scca, but for road racing I just don't see the easy path of getting my feet wet and in the door. While I'm not moving away from autox any time soon the scca doesn't make it easy to go to anything else except time trials.
"Promise mediocrity. Deliver just slightly better." - Jarrett Bellini
User avatar
Jeff Stuart
King of Fastrack!
Posts: 674
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:31 pm
Club: CASOC
Car#: 13
Location: Santa Barbara
Contact:

Re: "Them" and "Us" ... Racing Orgs

Post by Jeff Stuart »

"Us" is SCCA CalClub Club Racing.

"Them" in this case is NASA.

I agree with Bobby though, as someone who wants to get into road racing, SCCA is not nearly as inviting as the HPDE/TT program that NASA offers (at least from what I've read, I haven't been to one yet). Perhaps if the SCCA Time Trials or PDX programs were more fleshed out (or existed) in this region it would be different. As it stands right now though, there are only three Time Trial events a year, usually attended by about 10 people.
User avatar
Ed Holley
Posts: 739
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:55 pm
Club: CASOC
Car#: 912

Re: "Them" and "Us" ... Racing Orgs

Post by Ed Holley »

Bobby Beyer wrote: I've gone on the calclub site and he's right there is 3-4 time trials this year all at buttonwillow (bleh) and no PDX/HPDE events. I like the scca, but for road racing I just don't see the easy path of getting my feet wet and in the door. While I'm not moving away from autox any time soon the scca doesn't make it easy to go to anything else except time trials.
Jeff Stuart wrote: I agree with Bobby though, as someone who wants to get into road racing, SCCA is not nearly as inviting as the HPDE/TT program that NASA offers (at least from what I've read, I haven't been to one yet). Perhaps if the SCCA Time Trials or PDX programs were more fleshed out (or existed) in this region it would be different. As it stands right now though, there are only three Time Trial events a year, usually attended by about 10 people.
While there is no doubt that a Time Trial/PDX may be the way to get your feet wet, my opinion is that it only gets you seat time and is not the traditional path into club racing. The traditional SCCA Club Racing path, which has not changed much if at all since I went thru in the 70's, is SCCA Driver's School to a Regional License...and then Regional Races...to a National License. According to the SCCA website, Cal Club has three Double Regional weekends scheduled between June and October. Unfortunately, I do not see any Cal Club Driver's Schools scheduled for the rest of the year. Without attending and graduating from driver school, you don't get a Regional License unless there's something I'm missing. By the way, you CAN attend a SCCA driver's school and/or race in any region.
2012 ES Regional Champion
2001 NB Miata
User avatar
Rick Brown
Current Solo Director
Posts: 5114
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:25 am
Club: PSCC
Car#: 240
Location: Lake Elsinore, CA

Re: "Them" and "Us" ... Racing Orgs

Post by Rick Brown »

Jeff Stuart wrote:"Us" is SCCA CalClub Club Racing.

"Them" in this case is NASA.

I agree with Bobby though, as someone who wants to get into road racing, SCCA is not nearly as inviting as the HPDE/TT program that NASA offers (at least from what I've read, I haven't been to one yet). Perhaps if the SCCA Time Trials or PDX programs were more fleshed out (or existed) in this region it would be different. As it stands right now though, there are only three Time Trial events a year, usually attended by about 10 people.
Before track days, there used to be a program called Solo 1 (when we were Solo 2) that was basically a time trial but the "practice" part on Saturday and Sunday morning was run wheel to wheel with limited passing. Then on Sunday afternoon was the timed runs. Las Vegas and San Diego also ran Solo 1. In Vegas they also had an HPDE run group where the Solo 1 drivers were the instructors. While it was a path to club racing, the biggest problem was it required full race clothing, fire extinguisher and a legal roll bar. Many people were not willing to spend that much just to see if they liked the track. It was also run by the Solo group, not the race group like it is now.
Since light is faster than sound...many people look bright until they speak...
User avatar
Steve Towers
Posts: 522
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:26 am
Club: No$
Car#: 87

Re: "Them" and "Us" ... Racing Orgs

Post by Steve Towers »

The one and only time I've had my car on a track (big Willow) was with these guys. Not advocating, just putting out info.

http://opentrackracing.com/about.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

FWIW: My track day was just after I bought my Corvette - it had 3 year old run flats on it and I didn't know any better. Major dumb guy. Took me 11-12 laps to realize I was either going to kill me, someone else, or both. Got off the track.
User avatar
John Coffey
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:24 am
Club: PSCC
Car#: 250
Location: La Habra, CA
Contact:

Re: "Them" and "Us" ... Racing Orgs

Post by John Coffey »

Without attending and graduating from driver school, you don't get a Regional License unless there's something I'm missing.
Although none of this is listed in the rule books - in practice its much easier to get your licensing with SCCA. They will accept pretty much any driver school (not just a SCCA school) as part of the requirements for a Novice Permit (you don't' get a Regional license right off the bat). They will also accept a racing license from most any other racing organization. Since the driver counts are way down they have relaxed the Novice Permit requirements and they relaxed the National License requirements -
User avatar
Jayson Woodruff
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:26 am
Club: PSCC
Car#: 51

Re: "Them" and "Us" ... Racing Orgs

Post by Jayson Woodruff »

Steve Towers wrote: Major dumb guy. Took me 11-12 laps to realize I was either going to kill me, someone else, or both. Got off the track.
I believe FNG is the term you're looking for ;-)

At least you had the sense to get off the track, SO many others don't. Big williow is a scary place if you're not entirely prepared (skill, mental state and equipment).

I had pretty good fun at Streets of Willow. Very AutoX-ish. Couple idiots, but they were fairly easy to avoid. I believe if we ever wanted to we could easily run a 'Buttonwillow' style autoX at the streets. I hear Chuck Walla is similar (maybe from J. Stuart?), wouldn't mind trying that some day as well.

Jay W
User avatar
Rick Brown
Current Solo Director
Posts: 5114
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:25 am
Club: PSCC
Car#: 240
Location: Lake Elsinore, CA

Re: "Them" and "Us" ... Racing Orgs

Post by Rick Brown »

Jayson Woodruff wrote:
Steve Towers wrote: Major dumb guy. Took me 11-12 laps to realize I was either going to kill me, someone else, or both. Got off the track.
I believe FNG is the term you're looking for ;-)

At least you had the sense to get off the track, SO many others don't. Big williow is a scary place if you're not entirely prepared (skill, mental state and equipment).

I had pretty good fun at Streets of Willow. Very AutoX-ish. Couple idiots, but they were fairly easy to avoid. I believe if we ever wanted to we could easily run a 'Buttonwillow' style autoX at the streets. I hear Chuck Walla is similar (maybe from J. Stuart?), wouldn't mind trying that some day as well.

Jay W
We have held an autocross at Streets. But many of us thought it was less safe with all the cones added to control speed than an open course would have been.
Since light is faster than sound...many people look bright until they speak...
User avatar
Jayson Woodruff
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:26 am
Club: PSCC
Car#: 51

Re: "Them" and "Us" ... Racing Orgs

Post by Jayson Woodruff »

That was the same thoughts as Buttonwillow wasn't it?

Most of the Streets is AutoX speeds already. I can only picture two or three areas where we'd need to forcefully slow people down, and those are pretty straight. BW the whole track was too fast on its own.

Jay W
Rick Brown wrote:We have held an autocross at Streets. But many of us thought it was less safe with all the cones added to control speed than an open course would have been.
User avatar
Mako Koiwai
Posts: 6490
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:25 am
Club: SCNAX
Car#: 34
Location: South Pasadena, CA
Contact:

Re: "Them" and "Us" ... Racing Orgs

Post by Mako Koiwai »

If I was talking about Auto Cross, I would have posted in the Solo Forum.

None of the organizations are super friendly with each other it seems, although there is a bit of cooperation. We host a Fastest in the West event later in the year which is open to ALL racers from the ANY organization. We at least use to co-host the Corvette Challenge with Speed Venture. If you are participating in any other organizations events one must cover up the other organizations logos. Velcro comes in handy on racing suits.

Karen and I want to support the SCCA as much as we can. I'm just reporting that having done SCCA, NASA and Speed Venture events I can see why, at least in Southern CA, SCCA track participation is down while NASA and Speed Venture is thriving. They both use to have a "bad" reputation it seems for being a bit "cowboy." I just wanted to report how impressed I was with the NASA event last weekend. There are other groups like ExtremeSpeed which we haven't participated with.

It's difficult going into this without being critical of the SCCA. But I have to say that our SCCA Tech was minimal compared to the NASA one. Our car wasn't re-teched when we went from ITA to STL, even though it involved adding 200+ lbs of ballast. You would think that it would be important to check how it was mounted. I know there was one safety thing wrong with our car that the SCCA didn't discover. I didn't have time to fix it, but I did have the parts with me if they insisted that I fix it before the car was allowed on track. (There are different opinions on this safety item.) The NASA annual tech was very thorough and we ended up with a list of suggested improvements and notes in our Log Book of things that HAD to be upgraded and then checked off.

NASA has a very structured step ladder to go from HPDE to racing license. In HPDE EVER beginning DRIVER has an Instructor, and there are a LOT of HPDE participants. It seems to be part of the NASA culture that racers must help instruct. After EACH session, there is a debrief where all issues and infractions are discussed. Corner workers call in with observations and the instructors are watching out. Some of the instructors are pretty brutal and there have been tears. This is serious instructing.

In order to get ones racing license one must go through four levels of HPDE classes, THEN Time Trials and only then can one get signed off. For something like four to eight races Rookies must "wear" a 12" Orange Square on the back of their car, with an "R" in it as well as next to ones class letters.

With the SCCA one attends an intensive 2 day driving school with 100 minutes of track time per day. This is preceded by a long evening of class room instructions. Each track session is followed by a debrief. Each student has an instructor who if they aren't riding along is observing their students. On the third day one gets to participate in ones first full on Regional race. Before the race one has Rolling Start practice sessions. The school is very convenient and well done. One just has to plan far ahead to make sure one catches the infrequent local schools ... if one doesn't want to travel to another region.

Both NASA and Speed Venture host attractive events which have especially siphoned off the fresh blood. Speed Venture hosts various marquee Challenges: Miata, BMW, S2000, Corvette, Honda, and a new Cadillac Challenge plus "Time Attack." Each Challenge has different levels of prep, using a point system. This makes it very easy for the average person to show up with his pre-mod'ed car and jump right into non wheel to wheel competition. Typically there are four time sessions. Your fastest time is used for the Challenge results. These are year long championships, with typically the ability to drop a couple of events.

I'm just saying that the competitors are no longer just outlaws. They offer a quality product that has bleed the SCCA of its future, at least in our area. Karen is excited about running with Philip Royle, Jason Isley, Jennifer Isley, Toby and Oli in a couple of weeks at CA Speedway. This Saturday she's excited about running the Speed Venture Miata Challenge (I'm going to just run in HPDE). Theo should be there along with a number of Miata drivers that have done some of our AX's . Last weekend it was cool running with Terry Free, Matt Thiesman and our other NASA friends. For competitors it's a wonderful time. If I was the SCCA I would be worried ....
Post Reply