DIY Alignment Question
Moderator: Mike Simanyi
- Curt Thompson
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:46 pm
- Car#: 303
- Location: Pasadena, CA
DIY Alignment Question
Background info (not necessary, perhaps):
So, you may have noticed in my post asking about tires that I said I had Island Tires do my alignment. For all my complaining about the off-center wheel, at least they had the car driving almost perfectly straight.
When I got the new tires, something must have shifted a bit, or maybe I hit a few potholes. In any case, the alignment became "off". My buddy recommended one of these lifetime alignments from the Discount Tires shop he frequents with his heavily modded Acura TL. My Miata went in pulling to the left, came out pulling to the left. So I brought it to a different DT shop, and now it pulls to the left even worse AND the wheel is again off-center.
The actual question:
I know how to center the wheel and adjust toe (thanks Mako), and I've done a good deal of research into adjusting camber/caster. My main question is what do they mean when they say "turning the adjuster cam *one graduation* changes the angle by about 0.367 degrees? One graduation is different than one rotation, right?
These are a couple of the resources I'm using:
http://www.miata.net/garage/alignment/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=24751" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and these are the numbers I was trying to get (recommended from Flyin' Miata):
Front:
Caster 5.0
Camber -1.0
Toe-In: 1/16" (They do In to keep it stable, I guess, I'll try in & out and see which I like better)
Rear:
Camber: -1.5
Toe-In: 1/16"
And if anybody is interested, I made a little excel spreadsheet to help me get an idea of what I'll need to do. (In the front of the car, anyway).
I guess I can't attach it, but you can download it here if you please: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/815351/alignmentchart.xls" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The change in caster/camber per graduation is based on info from the posts above. Now I just need to know what graduation means...
Oh, and thanks in advance!! Looking forward to running some more events next year =)
So, you may have noticed in my post asking about tires that I said I had Island Tires do my alignment. For all my complaining about the off-center wheel, at least they had the car driving almost perfectly straight.
When I got the new tires, something must have shifted a bit, or maybe I hit a few potholes. In any case, the alignment became "off". My buddy recommended one of these lifetime alignments from the Discount Tires shop he frequents with his heavily modded Acura TL. My Miata went in pulling to the left, came out pulling to the left. So I brought it to a different DT shop, and now it pulls to the left even worse AND the wheel is again off-center.
The actual question:
I know how to center the wheel and adjust toe (thanks Mako), and I've done a good deal of research into adjusting camber/caster. My main question is what do they mean when they say "turning the adjuster cam *one graduation* changes the angle by about 0.367 degrees? One graduation is different than one rotation, right?
These are a couple of the resources I'm using:
http://www.miata.net/garage/alignment/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=24751" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and these are the numbers I was trying to get (recommended from Flyin' Miata):
Front:
Caster 5.0
Camber -1.0
Toe-In: 1/16" (They do In to keep it stable, I guess, I'll try in & out and see which I like better)
Rear:
Camber: -1.5
Toe-In: 1/16"
And if anybody is interested, I made a little excel spreadsheet to help me get an idea of what I'll need to do. (In the front of the car, anyway).
I guess I can't attach it, but you can download it here if you please: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/815351/alignmentchart.xls" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The change in caster/camber per graduation is based on info from the posts above. Now I just need to know what graduation means...
Oh, and thanks in advance!! Looking forward to running some more events next year =)
1999 Mazda Miata
- Christine Grice
- King of Fastrack!
- Posts: 1932
- Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:26 am
- Club: CASOC
- Car#: 17
Re: DIY Alignment Question
the graduation marks are the little lines etched into the eccentric bolt washer. There should be another mark on the subframe.
~Christine Grice
2006 Mitsubishi Evolution, Berry Family Racing/Hoosier/ChaseCam
2006 Mitsubishi Evolution, Berry Family Racing/Hoosier/ChaseCam
- George Schilling
- Club Representative
- Posts: 5135
- Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:26 am
- Club: CASOC
- Car#: 66
- Location: Lakewood, CA
Re: DIY Alignment Question
There's play in those adjusters of varying amounts. How much moving the cam one mark is an estimate at best.Christine Grice wrote:
the graduation marks are the little lines etched into the eccentric bolt washer. There should be another mark on the subframe.
CASOC Autocross Club, 1984 Van Diemen RF-84, 1600cc Kent, Hewland Mk9, Centerline 2 pc. wheels, Hoosier R25B, SuperTrapp, Zimmer Alloclassic titanium left hip w/Metasul LDH chromium-cobalt lg dia head
- Curt Thompson
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:46 pm
- Car#: 303
- Location: Pasadena, CA
Re: DIY Alignment Question
Thanks Christine! The photos make it especially clear.George Schilling wrote:There's play in those adjusters of varying amounts. How much moving the cam one mark is an estimate at best.Christine Grice wrote:
the graduation marks are the little lines etched into the eccentric bolt washer. There should be another mark on the subframe.
@George, Thanks for the input. I know the degrees change per graduation is a loose estimate. I'll do what I can to measure things and get it lined up. I just want to get it reasonably close while I wait for new alignment bolts. I'll give DT another shot or two; if they can't even get it right with new bolts I'll consider it a loss and do what I should have done in the beginning and bring it to Darrin @ West End.
1999 Mazda Miata
- George Schilling
- Club Representative
- Posts: 5135
- Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:26 am
- Club: CASOC
- Car#: 66
- Location: Lakewood, CA
Re: DIY Alignment Question
My suggestion Curt, take the car to Darren, tell him what you want the car to do, he'll get you to a great starting point. Before leaving, you'll test drive the car before paying. If you're not satisfied, he'll fix it before you leave or give you a detailed explanation of what your car needs to make it right. Trust me.......you'll be happy.
CASOC Autocross Club, 1984 Van Diemen RF-84, 1600cc Kent, Hewland Mk9, Centerline 2 pc. wheels, Hoosier R25B, SuperTrapp, Zimmer Alloclassic titanium left hip w/Metasul LDH chromium-cobalt lg dia head
- Curt Thompson
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:46 pm
- Car#: 303
- Location: Pasadena, CA
Re: DIY Alignment Question
That's probably good advice. My bolts are set to arrive tomorrow (wow Rosenthal Mazda ships fast!), so I actually didn't mess with the settings today as I had planned. If Darren can get me in fairly soon, I'll probably just bring it there. The way it is right now, it's almost undriveable; I have trouble believing they test drove the car at all after the last "alignment". Let go of the wheel for a half second and I've changed lanes. So if I have to wait a few weeks for Darren, I'll bring it back to DT in the meantime since re-alignments are free for the next 3 years. I might as well TRY to get what value I can from that deal.George Schilling wrote:My suggestion Curt, take the car to Darren, tell him what you want the car to do, he'll get you to a great starting point. Before leaving, you'll test drive the car before paying. If you're not satisfied, he'll fix it before you leave or give you a detailed explanation of what your car needs to make it right. Trust me.......you'll be happy.
(For the record, the West LA DT that my buddy recommended got pretty close to the numbers I asked for and the wheel was straight. It was just a slight pull to the left that had me bringing it to a location closer to home where they basically set it mostly back to stock while messing it up. eg left caster was set at 5.4 and right at 6.7 (I asked for about 5.0 on each))
1999 Mazda Miata
-
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:26 am
- Club: CASOC
- Car#: 2
Re: DIY Alignment Question
Btw, for racers Mazdaspeed Motorsports is faster and cheaper than generic Mazda dealers like Rosenthal (Mazda dealers buy the parts at the same price you would buy directly from Mazda and then resell to you for profit)Curt Thompson wrote:(wow Rosenthal Mazda ships fast!),
The regional Mazda warehouse is in Ontario so pretty much everything shipping from there is a next day delivery for the LA area.
- Curt Thompson
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:46 pm
- Car#: 303
- Location: Pasadena, CA
Re: DIY Alignment Question
I didn't think of that. I haven't competed in enough events to get Mazdaspeed stuff yet anyway, but I'll try to keep it in mind this year. I have an appointment with West End for Monday. It sure will be nice not to have to fight the steering wheel during my 35 mile (each way) daily commute =PJulian Manolov wrote:Btw, for racers Mazdaspeed Motorsports is faster and cheaper than generic Mazda dealers like Rosenthal (Mazda dealers buy the parts at the same price you would buy directly from Mazda and then resell to you for profit)Curt Thompson wrote:(wow Rosenthal Mazda ships fast!),
The regional Mazda warehouse is in Ontario so pretty much everything shipping from there is a next day delivery for the LA area.
1999 Mazda Miata
- Anthony P.
- Former CSCC Overall Champion
- Posts: 1325
- Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:30 am
- Club: SCNAX
- Car#: 30
Re: DIY Alignment Question
I cant help but also recommend Darrin and westend alignment. Tell him what you want and he gets it. The best.
- George Schilling
- Club Representative
- Posts: 5135
- Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:26 am
- Club: CASOC
- Car#: 66
- Location: Lakewood, CA
Re: DIY Alignment Question
Curt, if I recall from my Mazda days, you only have to show the results from two events in the past year to get on the program. I also recall that even without event results, a bit of schmoozing goes a long way.Curt Thompson wrote:I didn't think of that. I haven't competed in enough events to get Mazdaspeed stuff yet anyway, but I'll try to keep it in mind this year. I have an appointment with West End for Monday. It sure will be nice not to have to fight the steering wheel during my 35 mile (each way) daily commute =PJulian Manolov wrote:Btw, for racers Mazdaspeed Motorsports is faster and cheaper than generic Mazda dealers like Rosenthal (Mazda dealers buy the parts at the same price you would buy directly from Mazda and then resell to you for profit)Curt Thompson wrote:(wow Rosenthal Mazda ships fast!),
The regional Mazda warehouse is in Ontario so pretty much everything shipping from there is a next day delivery for the LA area.
CASOC Autocross Club, 1984 Van Diemen RF-84, 1600cc Kent, Hewland Mk9, Centerline 2 pc. wheels, Hoosier R25B, SuperTrapp, Zimmer Alloclassic titanium left hip w/Metasul LDH chromium-cobalt lg dia head
- John Stimson
- Posts: 486
- Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:27 am
- Club: PSCC
- Car#: 124
Re: DIY Alignment Question
One tip to help with the slop in the adjustment markings: when setting the adjuster, always approach the desired mark from the same direction. For example, always turn the bolt head counter-clockwise past the desired mark, then turn it clockwise until you hit the mark exactly, and stop. Then tighten the nut. Using those directions serves two purposes: (1) avoids backlash in the adjustment, (2) holding the bolt head in place while you tighten the nut doesn't require you to reverse direction, again avoiding backlash. There's still some slop beyond the backlash, but the above should help reduce the number of times you have to curse and jack the car back up to try again.
- Curt Thompson
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:46 pm
- Car#: 303
- Location: Pasadena, CA
Re: DIY Alignment Question
Oh, good to know! I think I only technically competed in one event last year, the other one I did Time Only. Hopefully I'll be out there on the 27th and that'll get me the 2nd event anyway. I'm almost out of things to replace on the car though...George Schilling wrote:
Curt, if I recall from my Mazda days, you only have to show the results from two events in the past year to get on the program. I also recall that even without event results, a bit of schmoozing goes a long way.
West End did a great job. It was Chris who worked on it, not Darin, but he did a great job anyway. The "test-drive before you pay" policy is a great way to ensure customer satisfaction.
John, thanks for the advice. For now I probably have to have it done since I can't find a truly flat spot on my driveway and even if I could, I doubt I'd do it better than they did, but I'll keep it in mind for the future.
I knew I should have gone to WestEnd in the first place... why don't I listen to myself?
1999 Mazda Miata
- Craig Naylor
- Posts: 1973
- Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:30 am
- Club: SCNAX
- Car#: 80
- Location: Long Beach
Re: DIY Alignment Question
Curt... George is correct in you need to provide results from 2 events (to maintain your discount) per calender year, in the same class. However they understand the need to "build a car" for which you will complete. In my case, I purchased a non-running car, and needed the support to get it running. I believe they gave me something like 6 months to provide 2 results to keep it that first year.Curt Thompson wrote:Oh, good to know! I think I only technically competed in one event last year, the other one I did Time Only.George Schilling wrote:
Curt, if I recall from my Mazda days, you only have to show the results from two events in the past year to get on the program. I also recall that even without event results, a bit of schmoozing goes a long way.
- Curt Thompson
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:46 pm
- Car#: 303
- Location: Pasadena, CA
Re: DIY Alignment Question
Thanks, I see the "I'm building" option on the registration page. I just need to sort out the SCCA membership -- does anybody have a referral code they'd like to share? You can PM me here or email me at: curt <at> darkfrog <dot> org. Or post it in the thread, I suppose. Maybe others would use it too.Craig Naylor wrote:Curt... George is correct in you need to provide results from 2 events (to maintain your discount) per calender year, in the same class. However they understand the need to "build a car" for which you will complete. In my case, I purchased a non-running car, and needed the support to get it running. I believe they gave me something like 6 months to provide 2 results to keep it that first year.Curt Thompson wrote:Oh, good to know! I think I only technically competed in one event last year, the other one I did Time Only.George Schilling wrote:
Curt, if I recall from my Mazda days, you only have to show the results from two events in the past year to get on the program. I also recall that even without event results, a bit of schmoozing goes a long way.
1999 Mazda Miata
- George Schilling
- Club Representative
- Posts: 5135
- Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:26 am
- Club: CASOC
- Car#: 66
- Location: Lakewood, CA
Re: DIY Alignment Question
I think that refers to someone's SCCA number. You're welcome to use mine.....360728.Curt Thompson wrote:
Thanks, I see the "I'm building" option on the registration page. I just need to sort out the SCCA membership -- does anybody have a referral code they'd like to share? You can PM me here or email me at: curt <at> darkfrog <dot> org. Or post it in the thread, I suppose. Maybe others would use it too.
CASOC Autocross Club, 1984 Van Diemen RF-84, 1600cc Kent, Hewland Mk9, Centerline 2 pc. wheels, Hoosier R25B, SuperTrapp, Zimmer Alloclassic titanium left hip w/Metasul LDH chromium-cobalt lg dia head