DIY Alignment Question

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Curt Thompson
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DIY Alignment Question

Post by Curt Thompson »

Background info (not necessary, perhaps):
So, you may have noticed in my post asking about tires that I said I had Island Tires do my alignment. For all my complaining about the off-center wheel, at least they had the car driving almost perfectly straight.
When I got the new tires, something must have shifted a bit, or maybe I hit a few potholes. In any case, the alignment became "off". My buddy recommended one of these lifetime alignments from the Discount Tires shop he frequents with his heavily modded Acura TL. My Miata went in pulling to the left, came out pulling to the left. So I brought it to a different DT shop, and now it pulls to the left even worse AND the wheel is again off-center.

The actual question:
I know how to center the wheel and adjust toe (thanks Mako), and I've done a good deal of research into adjusting camber/caster. My main question is what do they mean when they say "turning the adjuster cam *one graduation* changes the angle by about 0.367 degrees? One graduation is different than one rotation, right?

These are a couple of the resources I'm using:
http://www.miata.net/garage/alignment/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=24751" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and these are the numbers I was trying to get (recommended from Flyin' Miata):
Front:
Caster 5.0
Camber -1.0
Toe-In: 1/16" (They do In to keep it stable, I guess, I'll try in & out and see which I like better)

Rear:
Camber: -1.5
Toe-In: 1/16"

And if anybody is interested, I made a little excel spreadsheet to help me get an idea of what I'll need to do. (In the front of the car, anyway).
I guess I can't attach it, but you can download it here if you please: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/815351/alignmentchart.xls" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The change in caster/camber per graduation is based on info from the posts above. Now I just need to know what graduation means...

Oh, and thanks in advance!! Looking forward to running some more events next year =)
1999 Mazda Miata
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Christine Grice
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Re: DIY Alignment Question

Post by Christine Grice »

Image
the graduation marks are the little lines etched into the eccentric bolt washer. There should be another mark on the subframe.
~Christine Grice
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George Schilling
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Re: DIY Alignment Question

Post by George Schilling »

Christine Grice wrote:Image
the graduation marks are the little lines etched into the eccentric bolt washer. There should be another mark on the subframe.
There's play in those adjusters of varying amounts. How much moving the cam one mark is an estimate at best.
CASOC Autocross Club, 1984 Van Diemen RF-84, 1600cc Kent, Hewland Mk9, Centerline 2 pc. wheels, Hoosier R25B, SuperTrapp, Zimmer Alloclassic titanium left hip w/Metasul LDH chromium-cobalt lg dia head
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Curt Thompson
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Re: DIY Alignment Question

Post by Curt Thompson »

George Schilling wrote:
Christine Grice wrote:Image
the graduation marks are the little lines etched into the eccentric bolt washer. There should be another mark on the subframe.
There's play in those adjusters of varying amounts. How much moving the cam one mark is an estimate at best.
Thanks Christine! The photos make it especially clear.

@George, Thanks for the input. I know the degrees change per graduation is a loose estimate. I'll do what I can to measure things and get it lined up. I just want to get it reasonably close while I wait for new alignment bolts. I'll give DT another shot or two; if they can't even get it right with new bolts I'll consider it a loss and do what I should have done in the beginning and bring it to Darrin @ West End.
1999 Mazda Miata
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George Schilling
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Re: DIY Alignment Question

Post by George Schilling »

My suggestion Curt, take the car to Darren, tell him what you want the car to do, he'll get you to a great starting point. Before leaving, you'll test drive the car before paying. If you're not satisfied, he'll fix it before you leave or give you a detailed explanation of what your car needs to make it right. Trust me.......you'll be happy.
CASOC Autocross Club, 1984 Van Diemen RF-84, 1600cc Kent, Hewland Mk9, Centerline 2 pc. wheels, Hoosier R25B, SuperTrapp, Zimmer Alloclassic titanium left hip w/Metasul LDH chromium-cobalt lg dia head
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Curt Thompson
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Re: DIY Alignment Question

Post by Curt Thompson »

George Schilling wrote:My suggestion Curt, take the car to Darren, tell him what you want the car to do, he'll get you to a great starting point. Before leaving, you'll test drive the car before paying. If you're not satisfied, he'll fix it before you leave or give you a detailed explanation of what your car needs to make it right. Trust me.......you'll be happy.
That's probably good advice. My bolts are set to arrive tomorrow (wow Rosenthal Mazda ships fast!), so I actually didn't mess with the settings today as I had planned. If Darren can get me in fairly soon, I'll probably just bring it there. The way it is right now, it's almost undriveable; I have trouble believing they test drove the car at all after the last "alignment". Let go of the wheel for a half second and I've changed lanes. So if I have to wait a few weeks for Darren, I'll bring it back to DT in the meantime since re-alignments are free for the next 3 years. I might as well TRY to get what value I can from that deal.

(For the record, the West LA DT that my buddy recommended got pretty close to the numbers I asked for and the wheel was straight. It was just a slight pull to the left that had me bringing it to a location closer to home where they basically set it mostly back to stock while messing it up. eg left caster was set at 5.4 and right at 6.7 (I asked for about 5.0 on each))
1999 Mazda Miata
Julian Manolov
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Re: DIY Alignment Question

Post by Julian Manolov »

Curt Thompson wrote:(wow Rosenthal Mazda ships fast!),
Btw, for racers Mazdaspeed Motorsports is faster and cheaper than generic Mazda dealers like Rosenthal (Mazda dealers buy the parts at the same price you would buy directly from Mazda and then resell to you for profit)
The regional Mazda warehouse is in Ontario so pretty much everything shipping from there is a next day delivery for the LA area.


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Curt Thompson
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Re: DIY Alignment Question

Post by Curt Thompson »

Julian Manolov wrote:
Curt Thompson wrote:(wow Rosenthal Mazda ships fast!),
Btw, for racers Mazdaspeed Motorsports is faster and cheaper than generic Mazda dealers like Rosenthal (Mazda dealers buy the parts at the same price you would buy directly from Mazda and then resell to you for profit)
The regional Mazda warehouse is in Ontario so pretty much everything shipping from there is a next day delivery for the LA area.
I didn't think of that. I haven't competed in enough events to get Mazdaspeed stuff yet anyway, but I'll try to keep it in mind this year. I have an appointment with West End for Monday. It sure will be nice not to have to fight the steering wheel during my 35 mile (each way) daily commute =P
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Anthony P.
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Re: DIY Alignment Question

Post by Anthony P. »

I cant help but also recommend Darrin and westend alignment. Tell him what you want and he gets it. The best.
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George Schilling
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Re: DIY Alignment Question

Post by George Schilling »

Curt Thompson wrote:
Julian Manolov wrote:
Curt Thompson wrote:(wow Rosenthal Mazda ships fast!),
Btw, for racers Mazdaspeed Motorsports is faster and cheaper than generic Mazda dealers like Rosenthal (Mazda dealers buy the parts at the same price you would buy directly from Mazda and then resell to you for profit)
The regional Mazda warehouse is in Ontario so pretty much everything shipping from there is a next day delivery for the LA area.
I didn't think of that. I haven't competed in enough events to get Mazdaspeed stuff yet anyway, but I'll try to keep it in mind this year. I have an appointment with West End for Monday. It sure will be nice not to have to fight the steering wheel during my 35 mile (each way) daily commute =P
Curt, if I recall from my Mazda days, you only have to show the results from two events in the past year to get on the program. I also recall that even without event results, a bit of schmoozing goes a long way.
CASOC Autocross Club, 1984 Van Diemen RF-84, 1600cc Kent, Hewland Mk9, Centerline 2 pc. wheels, Hoosier R25B, SuperTrapp, Zimmer Alloclassic titanium left hip w/Metasul LDH chromium-cobalt lg dia head
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John Stimson
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Re: DIY Alignment Question

Post by John Stimson »

One tip to help with the slop in the adjustment markings: when setting the adjuster, always approach the desired mark from the same direction. For example, always turn the bolt head counter-clockwise past the desired mark, then turn it clockwise until you hit the mark exactly, and stop. Then tighten the nut. Using those directions serves two purposes: (1) avoids backlash in the adjustment, (2) holding the bolt head in place while you tighten the nut doesn't require you to reverse direction, again avoiding backlash. There's still some slop beyond the backlash, but the above should help reduce the number of times you have to curse and jack the car back up to try again.
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Curt Thompson
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Re: DIY Alignment Question

Post by Curt Thompson »

George Schilling wrote:
Curt, if I recall from my Mazda days, you only have to show the results from two events in the past year to get on the program. I also recall that even without event results, a bit of schmoozing goes a long way.
Oh, good to know! I think I only technically competed in one event last year, the other one I did Time Only. Hopefully I'll be out there on the 27th and that'll get me the 2nd event anyway. I'm almost out of things to replace on the car though...:P

West End did a great job. It was Chris who worked on it, not Darin, but he did a great job anyway. The "test-drive before you pay" policy is a great way to ensure customer satisfaction.

John, thanks for the advice. For now I probably have to have it done since I can't find a truly flat spot on my driveway and even if I could, I doubt I'd do it better than they did, but I'll keep it in mind for the future.

I knew I should have gone to WestEnd in the first place... why don't I listen to myself?
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Craig Naylor
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Re: DIY Alignment Question

Post by Craig Naylor »

Curt Thompson wrote:
George Schilling wrote:
Curt, if I recall from my Mazda days, you only have to show the results from two events in the past year to get on the program. I also recall that even without event results, a bit of schmoozing goes a long way.
Oh, good to know! I think I only technically competed in one event last year, the other one I did Time Only.
Curt... George is correct in you need to provide results from 2 events (to maintain your discount) per calender year, in the same class. However they understand the need to "build a car" for which you will complete. In my case, I purchased a non-running car, and needed the support to get it running. I believe they gave me something like 6 months to provide 2 results to keep it that first year.
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Curt Thompson
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Re: DIY Alignment Question

Post by Curt Thompson »

Craig Naylor wrote:
Curt Thompson wrote:
George Schilling wrote:
Curt, if I recall from my Mazda days, you only have to show the results from two events in the past year to get on the program. I also recall that even without event results, a bit of schmoozing goes a long way.
Oh, good to know! I think I only technically competed in one event last year, the other one I did Time Only.
Curt... George is correct in you need to provide results from 2 events (to maintain your discount) per calender year, in the same class. However they understand the need to "build a car" for which you will complete. In my case, I purchased a non-running car, and needed the support to get it running. I believe they gave me something like 6 months to provide 2 results to keep it that first year.
Thanks, I see the "I'm building" option on the registration page. I just need to sort out the SCCA membership -- does anybody have a referral code they'd like to share? You can PM me here or email me at: curt <at> darkfrog <dot> org. Or post it in the thread, I suppose. Maybe others would use it too.
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George Schilling
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Re: DIY Alignment Question

Post by George Schilling »

Curt Thompson wrote:
Thanks, I see the "I'm building" option on the registration page. I just need to sort out the SCCA membership -- does anybody have a referral code they'd like to share? You can PM me here or email me at: curt <at> darkfrog <dot> org. Or post it in the thread, I suppose. Maybe others would use it too.
I think that refers to someone's SCCA number. You're welcome to use mine.....360728.
CASOC Autocross Club, 1984 Van Diemen RF-84, 1600cc Kent, Hewland Mk9, Centerline 2 pc. wheels, Hoosier R25B, SuperTrapp, Zimmer Alloclassic titanium left hip w/Metasul LDH chromium-cobalt lg dia head
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