...Or maybe a truck instead...

[Bill Schenker]

So, also considering a truck. Two questions.

1.) Is there a good motorsports towing forum?

2.) Using a Toyota Tundra w/the 5.7L. good for towing an enclosed trailer and say a total of 8k lbs? (truck is rated to 10,100lbs).

TIA

[George Schilling]

Now you talking Bill. Does this answer you question?

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... wAQ&dur=59" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Bill Schenker]

Now you talking Bill. Does this answer you question?

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... wAQ&dur=59" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

LOL. Yes, I remember when they did that; 'though I think they were only going about 0.10 mph. That would be a loooonnnggg trip to Lincoln at that pace.

[Marshall Grice]

I am by no means an expert, but i think you'll be hard pressed to find an enclosed trailer that is 8klbs loaded. Tom's trailer is just under 10klbs loaded.

[Bill Schenker]

I am by no means an expert, but i think you'll be hard pressed to find an enclosed trailer that is 8klbs loaded. Tom's trailer is just under 10klbs loaded.

Really?

Trailer: 4.2k lbs.
Car: 2k lbs.
Tool box: 0.4k lbs.
Tires: 0.3k lbs
Fuel, supplies, spares, misc.: 1k lbs.
= 7.9k lbs.

What am I missing?

[Morgan Trotter]

I looked into enclosed trailers a while back. 20ft weigh aprox 3k and 24ft are about 4k. I bet you could fit the miata in a 16ft
But not much else.

[KJ Christopher]

I am by no means an expert, but i think you'll be hard pressed to find an enclosed trailer that is 8klbs loaded. Tom's trailer is just under 10klbs loaded.

Really?

Trailer: 4.2k lbs.
Car: 2k lbs.
Tool box: 0.4k lbs.
Tires: 0.3k lbs
Fuel, supplies, spares, misc.: 1k lbs.
= 7.9k lbs.

What am I missing?

You're underestimating what you'll carry. It will be loaded to the max capacity. My, er - Mike's TPD, was always at 9k or greater. It is 4k empty.

You simply can not maintain an 8k limit through self control. The only way you'll potentially do it is to put little 14" tires on it that explode when you go over 2k per tire. But even then you'll go over, by carrying more spares, because you can't limit yourself to 8k through self control.

[KJ Christopher]

Honestly, fuel/spares will be over 1k.

[Bill Schenker]

I am by no means an expert, but i think you'll be hard pressed to find an enclosed trailer that is 8klbs loaded. Tom's trailer is just under 10klbs loaded.

Really?

Trailer: 4.2k lbs.
Car: 2k lbs.
Tool box: 0.4k lbs.
Tires: 0.3k lbs
Fuel, supplies, spares, misc.: 1k lbs.
= 7.9k lbs.

What am I missing?

You're underestimating what you'll carry. It will be loaded to the max capacity. My, er - Mike's TPD, was always at 9k or greater. It is 4k empty.

You simply can not maintain an 8k limit through self control. The only way you'll potentially do it is to put little 14" tires on it that explode when you go over 2k per tire. But even then you'll go over, by carrying more spares, because you can't limit yourself to 8k through self control.

I see your point. I usually err on the side of bring more stuff then less - BTW: I came up with tires at 300lbs via: 34lbs. x 8 = 272 lbs. then rounded up. Fuel would be: 15 gls. x 8 lbs = 120lbs. But if you were @ 9k lbs. with a lighter car, I see your point. I still don't see where the extra 1k lbs. comes from, but I guess it does!

[Craig Naylor]

Using a Toyota Tundra w/the 5.7L. good for towing an enclosed trailer and say a total of 8k lbs? (truck is rated to 10,100lbs).

TIA

Your going to find many in this group who will push a Diesel. That said, there are several who use the Tundra in our ranks too, the Isleys amongst them with multiple pulls to Nationals.

Here is what I can share, the Tundra pulls beautifully. I've personally put 60-70k miles towing all over the country on program with the truck since 2007, and at least that much unloaded also. I love the truck. The truck has no issue running over the Vail pass at posted + a bit (Ok 70mph) with a 13k trailer in tow. (Yes that's over it's rated... but it's what the trailer & stuff weighed) The Chevy Vortex Max 6.0 struggled towing an identical trailer minus the AV equip (so it weighed about 500lbs less) struggled to keep up on that pass, but held most other places including the Cajon pass. (But the posted in CA w/trailer is lower...)

Tundra, and Tow ratings. There is no mechanical difference in a Tow packaged 2007-2013 Tundra. However the 2007-2010? was rated at 10,200 - 10,800 Depending on cab/bed & 2/4WD w/ a 5.7 The 2011? - current is rated between 9,600 - 10,400 for exactly the same combinations. The change? Toyota adopted the SAE Truck tow rating system that was to be mandatory with all 1/2 ton Truck manufactures in 2012. The competitors have yet to adopt it, even though they all signed a memorandum of agreement to do so. Rating = sales especially in the 1/2 market... Ford, Chevy and Dodge, no one wants to be the first to downgrade their ratings. Toyota on the other hand... well it hasn't hurt their sales, especially in CA & TX there two biggest markets, and more acceptance of there products.

Oh... back to the Vail comparison... while it did pull without issue, you could visually watch the gas gauge move... but so did the Silverado.

[Craig Naylor]

The most important thing to remember in tow ratings is...
No two are the same.

10K at Ford does not = 10k at Chevy, or Dodge, or Toyota, or Nissan.
rinse wash & repeat in any order.

Every manufacturer (save Toyota) has their own formula as to how they "create" their tow standards.

In 2009 Ford, Chevy, Dodge & Toyota (Nissan refused), agreed to a standard rating (SAE J2807) to be implemented in 2011. Toyota moved to it in 2010, a year early. Chevy announced compliance in 2012, but Ford backed out, so they did too. Ram last fall said they were adopting for the 2013 model year as Ford said they would, then Ford didn't and Ram changed all their literature and issued new numbers as the truck hit the market. Ford says they will when they next have a "new from the ground up" 1/2 ton truck. They advertised the 2012 as a complete makeover, but I guess it wasn't "ground up", what is these days? So for now... just know Tow ratings are just like tire tread-wear ratings, no two companies are the same

[Bill Schenker]

Using a Toyota Tundra w/the 5.7L. good for towing an enclosed trailer and say a total of 8k lbs? (truck is rated to 10,100lbs).

TIA

Your going to find many in this group who will push a Diesel. That said, there are several who use the Tundra in our ranks too, the Isleys amongst them with multiple pulls to Nationals.

Here is what I can share, the Tundra pulls beautifully. I've personally put 60-70k miles towing all over the country on program with the truck since 2007, and at least that much unloaded also. I love the truck. The truck has no issue running over the Vail pass at posted + a bit (Ok 70mph) with a 13k trailer in tow. (Yes that's over it's rated... but it's what the trailer & stuff weighed) The Chevy Vortex Max 6.0 struggled towing an identical trailer minus the AV equip (so it weighed about 500lbs less) struggled to keep up on that pass, but held most other places including the Cajon pass. (But the posted in CA w/trailer is lower...)

Tundra, and Tow ratings. There is no mechanical difference in a Tow packaged 2007-2013 Tundra. However the 2007-2010? was rated at 10,200 - 10,800 Depending on cab/bed & 2/4WD w/ a 5.7 The 2011? - current is rated between 9,600 - 10,400 for exactly the same combinations. The change? Toyota adopted the SAE Truck tow rating system that was to be mandatory with all 1/2 ton Truck manufactures in 2012. The competitors have yet to adopt it, even though they all signed a memorandum of agreement to do so. Rating = sales especially in the 1/2 market... Ford, Chevy and Dodge, no one wants to be the first to downgrade their ratings. Toyota on the other hand... well it hasn't hurt their sales, especially in CA & TX there two biggest markets, and more acceptance of there products.

Oh... back to the Vail comparison... while it did pull without issue, you could visually watch the gas gauge move... but so did the Silverado.

Thanks, Craig!

P.S. Not that it's your problem when working for a company that TELLS you to tow a load that's over the truck's rating, but the insurance company can deign a claim if there were an accident. And now that I think about it, god forbid something would happen, but I wonder if a lawyer representing whomever or whatever were damaged/destroyed/injured or killed in an accident where the truck's tow capacity were exceeded, could go after the driver? Food for thought the next time, Craig.

[Bill Schenker]

The most important thing to remember in tow ratings is...
No two are the same.

10K at Ford does not = 10k at Chevy, or Dodge, or Toyota, or Nissan.
rinse wash & repeat in any order.

Every manufacturer (save Toyota) has their own formula as to how they "create" their tow standards.

In 2009 Ford, Chevy, Dodge & Toyota (Nissan refused), agreed to a standard rating (SAE J2807) to be implemented in 2011. Toyota moved to it in 2010, a year early. Chevy announced compliance in 2012, but Ford backed out, so they did too. Ram last fall said they were adopting for the 2013 model year as Ford said they would, then Ford didn't and Ram changed all their literature and issued new numbers as the truck hit the market. Ford says they will when they next have a "new from the ground up" 1/2 ton truck. They advertised the 2012 as a complete makeover, but I guess it wasn't "ground up", what is these days? So for now... just know Tow ratings are just like tire tread-wear ratings, no two companies are the same

Understood. And so, it's your experience that the Toyota gasser pulls better than the equivalent Ford, Chevy or Ram 1/2ton, right? Without a doubt it's better built and more reliable...

[KJ Christopher]

I see your point. I usually err on the side of bring more stuff then less - BTW: I came up with tires at 300lbs via: 34lbs. x 8 = 272 lbs. then rounded up. Fuel would be: 15 gls. x 8 lbs = 120lbs. But if you were @ 9k lbs. with a lighter car, I see your point. I still don't see where the extra 1k lbs. comes from, but I guess it does!

Tools and spares. They seem to multiply.... In fairness, I may carry more tools than you. But my car is lighter.

[Bill Schenker]

I see your point. I usually err on the side of bring more stuff then less - BTW: I came up with tires at 300lbs via: 34lbs. x 8 = 272 lbs. then rounded up. Fuel would be: 15 gls. x 8 lbs = 120lbs. But if you were @ 9k lbs. with a lighter car, I see your point. I still don't see where the extra 1k lbs. comes from, but I guess it does!

Tools and spares. They seem to multiply.... In fairness, I may carry more tools than you. But my car is lighter.

Yeah, I was thinking about your welder. But my tool supply will grow once I have a place for it and I want to get a portable welder as well!

[Craig Naylor]

Understood. And so, it's your experience that the Toyota gasser pulls better than the equivalent Ford, Chevy or Ram 1/2ton, right? Without a doubt it's better built and more reliable...

To answer best, are you looking new, or used? I've tried to cover both, but those new 8 speeds are changing things, and I don't have enough data to take them into consideration if looking new.

IMHO Toyota's advantage in the towing dept is due to the 5.7's standard 4.3 rear end. It's a stump puller. It does however contribute to it's lower end EPA ratings in MPG. (Most of the competitors use a 3.73/3.75 for EPA, and a 4.1 for tow ratings.... but you don't get both in the same truck, even though that's what they use in advertising) I believe the Tundra's numbers while EPA lower, are closer to real world experiences especially when towing. It will out pull, and MPG any of the competitors 4 & 5 speed Autos when towing & definitely vs. Fords V6 ecoboost.

I did a program for the '13 Ram 1500 last fall. It's redesign really impressed me, especially on the interior fit & finish. It spanked all the competitors hard plastic interiors w/ nice euro soft touch interiors, and has the best infotainment system in the '13 model year trucks. It also had some nice exterior touches that are coming to the Tundra in '14. Oh, and those Ram Boxes... way cool (still class exclusive)! I did not have the opportunity to tow with it, and the 8 speed V8 was not out yet. However Ram's don't have the same reliability history the Tundras have. AMCI testing did not have #'s on the 0-60 for the Hemi 8 speed when we did the dealer training, but expected to to ~ equal the Tundras best in class V8 performance.

Pound for pound, all the 1/2 trucks if equally equipped (adding to lesser trucks to equal higher standard equipped base trucks), run about the same money new. The Tundra, especially in CA retains it's value better. That said, a used Tundra truck is going to cost you more than a equally equipped competitor, but you should also benefit as your value will also ramp downward slower too, and have better reliability in the long haul (no pun intended).

I've never done a program for the F150 or the Silverado, my parents own a Silverado, and it's what I use when I need a truck (it's free!) I have driven all of them, in multiple fashions (track, offroad, street) in multiple configurations.

As I shared on the Dealer Training programs last fall with the Ram, "every one of the Trucks is capable at being a Truck. The can all Haul, Tow, and carry a Payload. They do differ in how they do it. But for most, the Truck is also your Daily driver. As a daily driver I would choose the Ram, it has the best ride (with the airide suspension), best seats (for my body shape) and best infotainment system, and best EPA numbers of all the '13 trucks."

That said I don't daily drive a truck, I only haul and tow on occasion. If I were to go to Enterprise, and all five 2013 1/2 Ton trucks were sitting on the lot and no cars were available, all things being equal, I would choose the Tundra for "truck purposes", and the Ram cruise in. If they were '12's or prior, then it would be the Tundra for all needs.

[Craig Naylor]

Funny note on Truck advertising. When I was out on the Ram training, the Ram employee used a Ford TV spot for comparisons. In the one ad and the claims they made, you would have had to have 7 different configurations to accomplish all the claims. Who is going to put 7 truck's in their driveway to accomplish all of the claims in one add? He pointed out that the 3 Ram spots running at the time could be accomplished with a single truck. (Off line he admitted the Tundra could be too, but he couldn't say that in class).

[Marshall Grice]

I am by no means an expert, but i think you'll be hard pressed to find an enclosed trailer that is 8klbs loaded. Tom's trailer is just under 10klbs loaded.

Really?

Trailer: 4.2k lbs.
Car: 2k lbs.
Tool box: 0.4k lbs.
Tires: 0.3k lbs
Fuel, supplies, spares, misc.: 1k lbs.
= 7.9k lbs.

What am I missing?

your estimate sounds good, but as stated that is the bare minimum you'll ever have. I think tom's rig has the exact same list of estimates (except with a 3klbs car) and scales out just under 10k going to nationals. so you're probably looking at a realistic 9k with your miata in it unless you get a really tiny trailer.

i'm sure towing locally that any truck will handle an enclosed trailer. it's really a matter of how much pain you want to deal with on the non-local tows and what you plan on doing with the truck when it's not towing. I think, in general, a 1/2 ton is going to have trouble with ~10klbs doing the nationals schedule. while you might make it once, you'll be doing lots of yearly maintenance to keep it going.

[Bill Schenker]

Maybe Steve Ekstrand needs to sell me his Ram 3500 for a good-guy price, so he can upgrade to the Dually we all know he wants.

[Patrick Mc Bride]

Bill evan a horse can pull a trailer the problem is when you want to stop 3/4ton min

[Bill Schenker]

Bill evan a horse can pull a trailer the problem is when you want to stop 3/4ton min

Yeah, good point, Irish. Steve really needs to sell me his truck.

Conversely, anyone know a good place to get leases on trucks?

[Marshall Grice]

You're underestimating what you'll carry. It will be loaded to the max capacity. My, er - Mike's TPD, was always at 9k or greater. It is 4k empty.

You simply can not maintain an 8k limit through self control. The only way you'll potentially do it is to put little 14" tires on it that explode when you go over 2k per tire. But even then you'll go over, by carrying more spares, because you can't limit yourself to 8k through self control.

i have to say that this is hilarious coming from the guy that now has a ~22klbs trailer to haul his 700 lb car.

[Craig Naylor]

Bill even a horse can pull a trailer the problem is when you want to stop 3/4ton min

Stopping: 1/2, 3/4, 1 ton Higher weight rating = better brakes? Not so quick. Info below for 2013 models:

Standard brakes 3/4 ton
C 2500 F 12.0" R 12.5"
R 2500 F 13.2" R 13.8"
F F150 F 13.7" R 13.4"
All have two piston Front, and single piston rear brakes.

Tundra F 13.9" R 13.6"
Standard 4 piston front, and two piston rear brakes.

Save the Ram rears, the 3/4 ton trucks all have inferior sized disks, and inferior numbers of pistons per caliper than the 1/2 Tundra. Oh... and all of those 3/4 ton trucks weigh more and have to stop themselves too. Can't speak as to the R2500 as they are different (1500 has 4 piston F), but I can say the R1500 does have class leading FEEL in the ABS, and the quickest 0-60 stop unloaded.

[Craig Naylor]

Conversely, anyone know a good place to get leases on trucks?

None on what you would likely be looking at, but all have purchase APR specials. No 3/4 deals except Ram 2500, than all cash allowances (not cash back), aka you can spend it on "free-ish" upgrades.


Tundra
Lease: 4.6L only @ $389 Double cab 36mth
$409 Crew Max 36mth
Purchase: All 0% 60mth or $3k (All Tundras)

Chevy
Lease: None
Purchase: 0% 60mth or $3k (Select trucks)

Ford
Lease: 5.0L only @229.00 Standard Cab, 4X4 24 mth
Purchase: None

Ram
Lease: 5.7L Quadcab Express (express = base truck)@ $259.00 Quad cab $x2
Purchase: combos of 0% and 1k allowance or $3k allowances (variety of different 1/2T & 3/4T trucks)

Unless your talking used... All the rental companies rent trucks, so at some point they will hit their lots. Carmineta Trucks (Santa Fe Springs) leases new and used trucks... can't answer as to their "deals", but we have rented a truck or two from them when we needed exact spec trucks for a project.

[Craig Naylor]

Bill if this fits you needs, you may want to contact Morgan...

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7391&p=95922#p95922" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

or for less money, but this from me... drop a modern 6speed transmission into it to improve fuel mileage, add lifter bags to rear to improve ride when towing, and spend less than any of the other options you have posted so far, and have a classic car to boot!

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/esd/cto/3940076558.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hell, the trunk can hold just about as much stuff as you current van can!