2018 Event Statistics

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Rick Brown
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Re: 2018 Event Statistics

Postby Rick Brown » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:53 pm

Anthony Porta wrote:
Justin Erickson wrote:From what I observed from up on the berm someone directing traffic a little at grid may have helped some. The third group seemed to have bunched up a bit much over by the multi-driver lanes while the ones closer to the paddock seemed empty. Also maybe color coordinating the cones to mark some of the lanes (i.e. multi driver) might be something to look into.



I like this, even some different colored cones would help people see the differences in lanes and make it easier to get back to the same one. Neelu brought this up as well.

We have several different colored small cones in the motorhome. I try to separate them each time I see them out at events, but people insist on using them anyway. I will be making another set of grid signs for the second grid.
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Re: 2018 Event Statistics

Postby Craig Naylor » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:10 pm

Mike Simanyi wrote:I'll add that course design has a lot to do with it, in addition to the other awareness issues already mentioned.

We could have accomplished the same with even fewer cones (the final wallom would have driven identically as a slalom, with fewer cones to reset if they were hit), but I don't think there were many instances of multiple cone hits in that section.


I worked that section (Run group 2). Cars that hit one cone ... typically hit all three cones within a wallom... but no one in that run group hit more than one wallom, or carried a cone off. - Set up was quick, and no re-runs were ever needed.

The section proceeding it with the 5 cone slalom, multiple cars hit multiple cones... often carrying one away with them. We gave 4 or 5 re-runs.

Not having worked the section, I would have agreed with your assessment, having worked it... not all is as it appears! ;-)

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Re: 2018 Event Statistics

Postby Anthony Porta » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:56 am

Here are the stats for the February event. A couple notes on the event for context later.

-25 min start delay (our average being 8 min), Networking setup issues that are a 1 time occurrence, preventing pre-review of the msr data before being imported.

-25 min delay during the event for a car that blew a motor. (It was pushed off course faster than we could get a tow vehicle out there), and cleaning up the oil is what took the time. Plenty of volunteers, it looked like it was handled well. Without this delay we would have done 153 RPH vs our 140.

-The cone count was high, leading to a 2-5 second longer start times, plus a few hold the starts because the timing crew had to get all the radio calls in and written down. DNF's were also higher than average.

-RRN w/out intsr are the number of RRN's we have recorded that arent instructor runs. New stat for 2018.

-The process for the timing audit between groups and communicating with grid are still being developed. Its possible to save another 15 minutes there.

- Fun Runs were another great success.

febeventstat.png
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Re: 2018 Event Statistics

Postby Tom Tanquary » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:13 pm

I find these stats after the events every helpful. Another category I'd like to see is a breakdown group by group. I don't know how much extra work that would be, though. And here's why I'd ask for that: There were an unusually high number of DNFs. I ran in first group so I'm not sure how that went but early on in second group I noticed people were having a lot of trouble with that showcase turn in front of grid. I was already on my why to "fix" it when the trailer called me. Before I could get a fix going I saw several more DNFs, 2 of which had cars driving directly at course workers, and they were rightly concerned as was I. I put in 3 more sections of directional lay-downs, mostly as a barrier between workers and where the cars were coming from. Hopefully that also got people to stay on course. I watched the rest of the group and it seemed to have worked although it could have been those drivers just "learning" the course on their last runs. I'm not sure how the last 2 groups did on that corner. If there was a breakdown by group I'd have a better idea if my "fix" actually fixed anything, except added safety for the workers.

Open courses are great. They're fun and provide ample learning experiences. But for novices they can be a bit overwhelming. I would NEVER want to go back to a sea of cones or a channel of cones. Which is why I think the lay-downs, properly placed, are very important. When I add them I try to keep them out of the way visually from the upcoming elements so you don't have to "see through" them. I have to admit, on my first run I had a second of hesitation entering that front (sort of) sweeper after the Chi box, before I focused on where the exit was. I didn't have that problem walking it. I should have revisited that area right after my runs. Sometimes you only notice things at speed. My bad.

Anyway, my suggestion to course designers and SSSs is to pay closer attention to the visuals beyond the elements themselves. It's hard to think like a new person, I know. And, it's a fine line between visual noise and direction aids. The course should not have to be affected but sometimes just "filling" a hole with 3 pointers can do the job. I thought the course was great. Obviously by my times I had a lot of fun with it. So this is by no means a criticism of the design. Which is why I'm loath to make any changes in course design or flow or add noise, only to help those that need help without interfering with the rest of us.
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Re: 2018 Event Statistics

Postby Rick Brown » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:46 pm

The course workers had called into timing about cars coming straight at them coming out of the chi box. I was just talking to Eric about a fix when you were on your way to fix it. I did see the issue with at a couple of cars. Either not looking ahead, not remembering or too new to realize the important cones (it was really just a slalom). I saw at least one car go too deep into the box which had them pointing at the workers on exit. I did not do a course walk but had no trouble following the course, but I am familiar with Eric's design style and of course lots of experience. It did take me a couple of trys to do that part right. I agree with your analysis and methodology, Tom.
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Re: 2018 Event Statistics

Postby Anthony Porta » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:25 pm

Tom Tanquary wrote:I find these stats after the events every helpful. Another category I'd like to see is a breakdown group by group.


I have to do that manually, so thank you for a compelling reason to do so. Very interesting in that your change may of had a local effect but didn't change the numbers of dnf's on average per group.
1) 12
2) 14
3) 18
4) 10
Jr) 1

Without Eric and Tom we wouldn't of had a course setup Friday and we wouldn't be able to take as many people into the practice. Thus we would have lost out on revenue and would have had to tell some people they can't make it in. That said, it would be better for event operations to have less thread the needle stuff where cones become the major factor (on exits) vs leaving a bit more room (Like by 6-O) where line choice determines the better drivers. (Like at the top of the hill after the start where my street tire time matched my Hoosier time because I took a line that was 10 feet shorter in distance on my street tires). Leading to a more challenging course for experts because there is more line choices and easier for novices because it allows for more vehicle movement. Also the 5-6 cone slalom that tightened after the 3rd cone made for a lot more cone hits. I think for a local course, even slaloms, or slightly expanding at the 3rd cone could strike a good balance between a "hidden" element and a cone catcher. just my 2 cents.
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Re: 2018 Event Statistics

Postby Tom Tanquary » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:42 pm

Thanks for that, Anthony. Interesting numbers. Don't shoot me, but the next logical step would be to find what sections those DNFs came from. I'm only curious from an SSS point of view. The changes I made were first and foremost for worker safety. But I wouldn't mind plugging holes elsewhere just to help people out. But..... if you can't read the course, there are other issues at play. All this info is very helpful when I safety a course so I get a better understanding of what folks see and don't see. Although with as many bad drivers as I encounter on a daily basis I'm not surprised at anything anymore. :think:
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Re: 2018 Event Statistics

Postby Chad-1stGen » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:55 pm

Interesting stuff for sure.

Just remember DNF's aren't always do to course design and newbies. I can tell you one of the DNF's in group 2 came from a certain CAM driver that had someone whispering in their ear Saturday to try and carry more speed through corners. That certain CAM driver may have found the limit. I know if I spin or make a major mistake and have the option of DNFing or plowing a wall of cones I take the DNF.

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Re: 2018 Event Statistics

Postby Anthony Porta » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:26 pm

Tom Tanquary wrote:Thanks for that, Anthony. Interesting numbers. Don't shoot me, but the next logical step would be to find what sections those DNFs came from. I'm only curious from an SSS point of view. The changes I made were first and foremost for worker safety. But I wouldn't mind plugging holes elsewhere just to help people out. But..... if you can't read the course, there are other issues at play. All this info is very helpful when I safety a course so I get a better understanding of what folks see and don't see. Although with as many bad drivers as I encounter on a daily basis I'm not surprised at anything anymore. :think:


Rick has the master radio sheets, they might have that information.
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Re: 2018 Event Statistics

Postby Anthony Porta » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:27 pm

Chad-1stGen wrote:Interesting stuff for sure.

Just remember DNF's aren't always do to course design and newbies. I can tell you one of the DNF's in group 2 came from a certain CAM driver that had someone whispering in their ear Saturday to try and carry more speed through corners. That certain CAM driver may have found the limit. I know if I spin or make a major mistake and have the option of DNFing or plowing a wall of cones I take the DNF.


True, but 9% is almost double our average.
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Re: 2018 Event Statistics

Postby Christine Grice » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:49 pm

Anthony Porta wrote:
Chad-1stGen wrote:Interesting stuff for sure.

Just remember DNF's aren't always do to course design and newbies. I can tell you one of the DNF's in group 2 came from a certain CAM driver that had someone whispering in their ear Saturday to try and carry more speed through corners. That certain CAM driver may have found the limit. I know if I spin or make a major mistake and have the option of DNFing or plowing a wall of cones I take the DNF.


True, but 9% is almost double our average.


One of the DNFs in the first group was me remembering what the throttle pedal in the Evo does.

I would hate to see all of the “thread the needle” sections be taken out of our local courses, it would be nice to get practice in all styles of elements in preparation for national events. Just don’t put too many of those elements in a course.
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Re: 2018 Event Statistics

Postby Rick Brown » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:01 pm

Anthony Porta wrote:
Tom Tanquary wrote:Thanks for that, Anthony. Interesting numbers. Don't shoot me, but the next logical step would be to find what sections those DNFs came from. I'm only curious from an SSS point of view. The changes I made were first and foremost for worker safety. But I wouldn't mind plugging holes elsewhere just to help people out. But..... if you can't read the course, there are other issues at play. All this info is very helpful when I safety a course so I get a better understanding of what folks see and don't see. Although with as many bad drivers as I encounter on a daily basis I'm not surprised at anything anymore. :think:


Rick has the master radio sheets, they might have that information.

Yeah, yeah, I get the hint. Without actually counting, just a quick glance, 85-90% were on first runs, so people learned what they did wrong. And I too, am one one of those who will DNF rather than take out cones when I see I am not going to make an element. Group 1 had more in Station 1, Group 2 had more in Station 3, Group 3 had more in Station 2, and Group 4 had more in Station 2 also. Does that mess with your head enough?
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Re: 2018 Event Statistics

Postby Marshall Grice » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:18 pm

one of the dnf's in the first group was me after I spun in the finish and was backwards in the finish shoot. I decided to just exit the course rather that 5 point turn and slow down the event.

I would say a large number of the dnf's were because the course was challenging, not because we all got lost. It's kinda nice to have 'oh crap I gotta bail' options rather than having stacks of pointer cones blocking all the holes.

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Re: 2018 Event Statistics

Postby Tom Tanquary » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:09 pm

Marshall Grice wrote:one of the dnf's in the first group was me after I spun in the finish and was backwards in the finish shoot. I decided to just exit the course rather that 5 point turn and slow down the event.

I would say a large number of the dnf's were because the course was challenging, not because we all got lost. It's kinda nice to have 'oh crap I gotta bail' options rather than having stacks of pointer cones blocking all the holes.

Pointer cones don't block exits. Properly placed they should never be hit under any circumstances. Big difference between visual and physical blocking.
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Re: 2018 Event Statistics

Postby David Watson » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:55 am

Hi All,

chiming in about the course design from the Feb. weekend. I was not there on Sunday to compare changes, but the Saturday course was well done in my opinion. Few drivers had the discipline to avoid the 2nd cone in that first slalom, but it paid dividends to those who did I think! :lol: I had no trouble navigating (my first weekend since doing 1080s at the school in Nov.) and the features like S curves and the dog leg were interesting and challenging.

Might consider rotating workers around the course, some people got a waaayy better workout than others, and the opportunity to observe the other half of the course could help the nooobs.

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Re: 2018 Event Statistics

Postby Mike Flanigan » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:56 pm

Anthony Porta wrote:- Fun Runs were another great success.


Not sure that this belongs here, but I'd like to make the powers that be.....aware.....:cool:

I reallllllly like all the extra passes as it gets me valuable seat time!....but I did come up on one problem that I believe can be addressed at the drivers meeting prior to the Fun Runs.

During the fun runs, I ended up driving up on 2 individuals attempting to replace the cones in the final slalom and it was a potentially a very hazardous position to be in for them (us). I completely believe I avoided any potential harm to them as I slowed to make sure they knew I was aware of the position we were in.

What I believe happened was that the person in the car ahead of me had spun, and then continued their run.......and then took out more cones in station 4 (5) of the course (the long slalom)......and this caused a "late" attempt at fixing the course.......which put me right on top of them!

PLEASE, during the next fun run drivers meeting, ask anyone who spins out during their fun run.......get back on course and proceed quickly with all attention being paid to "not" knock any other cones down while they are completing their pass.

This should help keep the course workers "better" out of harms way!

Thanks, Mike

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Re: 2018 Event Statistics

Postby Anthony Porta » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:58 pm

Some more data for everyone retrieved manually and mostly because people have "feelings" about how often we say "hold the start". Aside from the gap between run groups where we are only running 1 car at a time, which is being addressed there was...

1 gap of 1:30
2 gaps of 1:00
1 gap of 2:00

+/- rounded to the nearest :10

For a total of 4 min and 3 seconds of down time. While I would love to get rid of that, this is an all volunteer organisation and no this wouldn't go away with a different timing software.
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Re: 2018 Event Statistics

Postby Rick Brown » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:06 pm

Mike Flanigan wrote:
Anthony Porta wrote:- Fun Runs were another great success.


Not sure that this belongs here, but I'd like to make the powers that be.....aware.....:cool:

I reallllllly like all the extra passes as it gets me valuable seat time!....but I did come up on one problem that I believe can be addressed at the drivers meeting prior to the Fun Runs.

During the fun runs, I ended up driving up on 2 individuals attempting to replace the cones in the final slalom and it was a potentially a very hazardous position to be in for them (us). I completely believe I avoided any potential harm to them as I slowed to make sure they knew I was aware of the position we were in.

What I believe happened was that the person in the car ahead of me had spun, and then continued their run.......and then took out more cones in station 4 (5) of the course (the long slalom)......and this caused a "late" attempt at fixing the course.......which put me right on top of them!

PLEASE, during the next fun run drivers meeting, ask anyone who spins out during their fun run.......get back on course and proceed quickly with all attention being paid to "not" knock any other cones down while they are completing their pass.

This should help keep the course workers "better" out of harms way!

Thanks, Mike

I'm afraid I have to disagree with your solution, Mike. The course workers should not have been in that position in the first place, especially during fun runs (or practices) where cones do not count. While I don't know if it was said at the fun run meeting, I'm sure it was at the regular driver's meeting, that worker safety takes precedence over getting a cone back in place. If you have another car coming close and you don't think you can safely get the cone(s) back in place, leave them down. Expecting a driver who just spun out to be in the frame of mind to "quickly" get out of the way isn't practical for everyone.
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Re: 2018 Event Statistics

Postby Mike Simanyi » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:38 am

Rick, I see your point - and it's correct - but it's not in disagreement with Mike's point.

His point was to emphasize to all drivers before their fun runs that if they've spun and ruined their run, they should be conscientious enough to proceed without taking out more cones. I have to agree with that position.

It's not *the* solution to the key problem though. Mike should have been red flagged by another worker, or the workers shouldn't have attempted to reset the cones before he arrived. Despite all that, as drivers we all need to make a point to keep our focus ahead, so we can adapt to the "new developments." I've seen people at Nationals drive into another car going the wrong direction on course. Expect the unexpected!

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Re: 2018 Event Statistics

Postby Reed Gibson » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:08 pm

Mike Simanyi wrote:Rick, I see your point - and it's correct - but it's not in disagreement with Mike's point.

His point was to emphasize to all drivers before their fun runs that if they've spun and ruined their run, they should be conscientious enough to proceed without taking out more cones. I have to agree with that position.

It's not *the* solution to the key problem though. Mike should have been red flagged by another worker, or the workers shouldn't have attempted to reset the cones before he arrived. Despite all that, as drivers we all need to make a point to keep our focus ahead, so we can adapt to the "new developments." I've seen people at Nationals drive into another car going the wrong direction on course. Expect the unexpected!


I think we can remedy this by just going over the basic flagging rules when the worker chief assigns fun run groups. The past few events we somehow keep ending up with a more experienced group and a less experienced group when splitting up the participants so we just need to be mindful that not everyone present knows what to do and may need some extra guidance.

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Re: 2018 Event Statistics

Postby Tom Tanquary » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:55 am

Not that it's going to be changed.... but... the problem actually starts by calling them "fun" runs. It implies a carefree jaunt of wild abandonment, i.e., conefest! Perhaps a more pointed statement about staying sane at the fun run drivers meeting is called for....... :think: :? :wave: :thumbup:
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Re: 2018 Event Statistics

Postby Sean Fenstermacher » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:15 am

Tom Tanquary wrote:Not that it's going to be changed.... but... the problem actually starts by calling them "fun" runs. It implies a carefree jaunt of wild abandonment, i.e., conefest! Perhaps a more pointed statement about staying sane at the fun run drivers meeting is called for....... :think: :? :wave: :thumbup:



Maybe just emphasize at the drivers meeting that worker coverage will be light but drivers are expected to already know the course and be able to make clean runs.

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Re: 2018 Event Statistics

Postby Mike Flanigan » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:24 pm

Thank you for all of your thoughts on the subject that has been brought to attention in this thread about the issue of safety related concerns. I believe we can figure it out and keep moving forward.......:cool:

Please revert to the designs of this thread as originally was intended......Event statistics.

Thanks again, Mike

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Re: 2018 Event Statistics

Postby Mysto Gan » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:00 pm

I agree to that. ;)

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Re: 2018 Event Statistics

Postby Sean Fenstermacher » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:58 pm

Bump for March update :)


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