CHP Ticket help/advice needed

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Lily Liu
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Re: CHP Ticket help/advice needed

Post by Lily Liu »

Kurt Rahn wrote:
then you can request a change in venue to a location near your residence.
Lily, how do you do this? Have you had success filing the motion before? What are the chances they'd grant it? I'd love to move my location from Blythe to Pasadena. Think the a-hole cop would show for that? }:)

I haven't personally done this as my ticket got dismissed after the TWD. :D I'll bring a book this weekend that has a sample motion that you can file to the court. I have a friend who is a cop and he said they usually grant the request if the court is too far from where you live or if you have a belief that the judge that will be presiding your case is prejudiced.
~Lily
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Re: CHP Ticket help/advice needed

Post by George Schilling »

Well done Jeff. Thanks for posting it.

I don't see any hope for Stephen arguing his case according to the statute. If you have time Steve, you can look up case law pertaining to that VC and see if there have ever been rulings that made exceptions for any reason. Otherwise, just hope someone drops the ball along the way and it gets dismissed.
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Re: CHP Ticket help/advice needed

Post by Jeff Shyu »

regardless of the type of ticket you get (except for obviously stupid stuff like 100+, or DUI), the trick is really to fight the circumstances, and not the ticket.

you never admit to doing wrong, but at the other hand, you never deny it. you appeal to the spirit of the law, not the word of the law. you appeal to the safety of you and those around you for your specific instance, not what the law says should be safe in any situation.

ultimately, it's up to the cop to prove that you're unsafe. if you show up with nothing, then his word is enough for any judge. if you show up with at least a half-ass believable story on why you were being safe, then the cop has to provide actual evidence to back himself up. There's not a whole lot a cop can do to provide that.
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Re: CHP Ticket help/advice needed

Post by Jeff Shyu »

i didn't realize CVC definition of "vehicle" was that .. loose..

if i were in Stephen's shoes, here's the scenario I would paint:
I (stephen) was traveling in the 2nd to the further right lane upon picking up my new trailer. I was unused to the trailer, and was traveling at exactly 55mph as the previous owner of my trailer informed me.

upon hitting the freeway, i realized that 55mph was well below the safe speed, even in the slow lane. I was constantly having to watch my mirrors in fear of being rear ended. even the 18 wheelers were closing in at high speed. after a few miles of fearing for my own safety, and those around me, i decided to speed up to keep up with the big trucks on the road.

once i felt a safe speed was achieved, I had to contend with merging traffic. more than once i was squeezed by the 18 wheelers in the 2 further right lanes when there was new traffic merging onto the freeway. Once i had to slam on my brakes to make room for an 18 wheeler making way for another 18 wheeler coming onto the freeway. that's when i started moving over to the 3rd lane from the right whenever it was clear, when i'm coming up to a freeway onramp, or to slow down and provide ample room infront and behind me if the 3rd lane was occupied.

this is where the officer saw me, when he indicated that i was traveling outside of the 2 right lanes. I can not attest to the speed of my vehicle at that specific time, since my primary concern at the time was for my own safety as I made room for the bigger trucks. I merely attained speed which gave me the buffer around the car. I do not feel I was traveling at the speed professed by the officer. I also do not believe he has any radar reading to confirm his estimate of my speed (does your ticket show a radar gun serial number?).
anyways, i'd start with that, and then build up more fluff around it.. :)
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Re: CHP Ticket help/advice needed

Post by Bob Pl »

:thumbup:
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Re: CHP Ticket help/advice needed

Post by Kurt Rahn »

Oooooooooo, you're good. I think you missed your calling, Jeff. It's not too late to go to law school ;)
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Re: CHP Ticket help/advice needed

Post by Rick Brown »

As I said in the other post, I often tow the kart at the same speeds the cars are going, but I always stay in the right lanes (I believe it's right 2 on 4 plus lane roads, right on 3 lane except to pass, not sure on 2 lane) so sometimes I'm forced to go slower if the traffic is heavy in those lanes. A cop has to extablish speed somehow, but if you're in the wrong lane it's pretty obvious. If I see a cop, I do slow to 55-60. Don't think they could argue safety since the trailer with kart only weighs about 350 lbs and has no effect on braking or even gas milage.
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Re: CHP Ticket help/advice needed

Post by Jeff Shyu »

the general strategy for fighting a traffic ticket is simple:

* never admit to doing anything wrong
* never outright say the cop is wrong
* paint a situation where the word of the law (and by association, following the exact words of the law) would be unsafe
* let the cop show that what you did, is unsafe

vehicle code, unlike actual LAWS, are pretty subjective (well, even "real" laws are pretty subjective, i guess), and everything has the underlying principle of "safety". It almost feels like shooting fish in a barrel when i do TWD. They don't really put cops through writing classes and analytical thinking.
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Re: CHP Ticket help/advice needed

Post by Jeff Shyu »

here's a couple more that i have in my e-mail from work. for the same guy. he doesn't seem to understand how to not get tickets.. :shock:

i think this one was something like 55 in a 40?
INDEX
1. CITATION BACKGROUND
2. NARRATIVE OF EVENT
3. DEFENSE
4. PICTURES/DIAGRAMS
5. SUMMATION

CITATION BACKGROUND
DATE: 04-30-07
TIME: 09:50 AM
LOCATION: SB on Rockfield Rd, at Dune Mear Rd.
California Vehicle Code cited: 22350 - Basic Speed Law

22350.  No person shall drive a vehicle upon a highway at a speed greater than is reasonable or prudent having due regard for weather, visibility, the traffic on, and the surface and width of, the highway, and in no event at a speed which endangers the safety of persons or property.

Amended Ch. 252, Stats. 1963. Effective September 20, 1963.

NARRATIVE OF EVENTS
The following narrative was written around noon of 04-30-07, shortly after getting settled into work.

I was on my way to work on the morning of April 30th, 2007, when I was pulled over for speeding at the crossing of Rockfield Rd and Dune Mear Rd.

I was driving south bound on Rockfield Rd. The traffic was light, being mid morning on a weekday.

I was traveling south bound on the left lane (2 lanes each direction), and was going approximately 50 MPH. I had a late model Nissan sedan slightly ahead of me, also traveling approximately 50 mph, but slowing down and signaling to turn right onto Dune Mear.

On approach to the intersection where I was cited, I saw a minivan approaching Rockfield from Dune Mear. He crept slightly into the intersection, intending to make a left onto Northbound Rockfield. He saw that I was approaching, and came to a stop. He waved to me, and I nodded acknowledgement, and eased on the throttle to quickly clear the intersection (which does not have directing traffic lights).

I had not seen the officer parked on Dune Mear due to the minivan partially blocking the view of Dune Mear.

The officer pulled me over shortly thereafter, and cited me for a speeding ticket. I felt that I was operating my motorcycle at a safe speed, but signed the ticket and proceeded to work.

DEFENSE
22350 specifies that a vehicle shall travel at a speed reasonable or prudent having due regard for weather, visibility, the traffic .

As the officer noted on the ticket, the sky was clear, road surface dry, and the traffic medium (though I would suggest that traffic was actually light, considering I had considerable gap [at least 5 second gap] between myself and the vehicles in front and behind me).

To these conditions, I'd like to also add that this particular section of the road has little to no intersecting streets for potential cross traffic. Also, the street does NOT have small or mid size trees that would otherwise hinder clear view of traffic, both oncoming, and cross traffic. In fact, I had a clear view of every vehicle in operation at the area, EXCEPT for the officer's vehicle, which was blocked by the minivan.

In motorcycle driving school, we're taught SIPDE - Scan, Identify, Predict, Decide, Execute. In this case, I scanned the road way, and identified the moving minivan as a potential hazard (if it came across the road, I'd have to slow my speed accordingly), after making eye contact with the driver of the minivan, and acknowledging him giving me the right-of-way, I Decided to quickly get through the intersection, both as courtesy, as well as for my own safety. I Executed by gently accelerating through the intersection.

I believe the officer only had a short window to acquire my traveling speed, as his vantage point would have been partially blocked by the minivan. At the time of his reading, I was most certainly at the top of my acceleration to get through the intersection (and immediately rolled off the throttle to slow down). As we're told in MSF (motorcycle safety foundation) classes, motorcycles' greatest advantage for avoiding incidents is its ability to quickly speed up, and decelerate around obstacles. A motorcycle can easily gain 20 MPH, and immediately drop the 20 MPH by simply letting go of the throttle. This is exactly the case here, where I accelerated to get myself out of a potentially hazardous situation, and immediately slowed down once the situation is averted.

I believe I was operating my motorcycle in the best interest of my own safety, as well as other vehicles sharing the road with me. I had plenty of room in front of my motorcycle, and felt that getting across the intersection as quickly as possible was a safer decision than to expose myself to potential cross traffic if I had been indecisive which might have lead the minivan to believe I was yielding my right of way to it.

PICTURES/DIAGRAMS

1. Diagram 1 - Overhead map <-- you gotta throw something together for these on your own.
2. Diagram 2 - Street picture <-- you gotta throw something together for these on your own.

SUMMATION
I believe that I was in full compliance with the spirit of the California Vehicle Code. I was operating my vehicle to the Safest of my motorcycle safety training. My fault lies in that I exceeded the posted suggested safe speed when I was clearing the intersection. I believe, based upon the above testimony, and the enclosed picture / map, I have shown that in this particular situation, the "reasonable or prudent having due regard for weather, visibility, the traffic" action was precisely the actions I took, and I sincerely request that the case be dismissed.

Thank you,
and i think this one was 85 on the freeway..
INDEX
1. CITATION BACKGROUND
2. NARRATIVE OF EVENT
3. DEFENSE
4. PICTURES/DIAGRAMS
5. SUMMATION

CITATION BACKGROUND
DATE: 07-20-06
TIME: 4:30 PM
LOCATION: SB on Interstate 5, near Highway 73, Carpool Lane
California Vehicle Code cited: 22349 (a) - Maximum speed limit
22349. (a) Except as provided in Section 22356, no person may drive a vehicle upon a highway at a speed greater than 65 miles per hour.
(b) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, no person may drive a vehicle upon a two-lane, undivided highway at a speed greater than 55 miles per hour unless that highway, or portion thereof, has been posted for a higher speed by the Department of Transportation or appropriate local agency upon the basis of an engineering and traffic survey. For purposes of this subdivision, the following apply:
(1) A two-lane, undivided highway is a highway with not more than one through lane of travel in each direction.
(2) Passing lanes may not be considered when determining the number of through lanes.
(c) It is the intent of the Legislature that there be reasonable signing on affected two-lane, undivided highways described in subdivision (b) in continuing the 55 miles-per-hour speed limit, including placing signs at county boundaries to the extent possible, and at other appropriate locations.

NARRATIVE OF EVENTS
The following narrative was written on the night of 07/20/06, shortly after arriving at home.

I was making my daily commute home this afternoon, when I was pulled over and cited with a speeding ticket. I understood what the officer was citing me for, though I felt I had a valid reason for what I did. I don't fault the officer for the ticket, though I wish he was able to see it from my point of view.

I was riding home on my motorcycle, just cruising along with the traffic in the carpool lane. It had been a pretty busy day at work, and I just wanted a non-eventful ride home. I remember looking over while passing by Hwy 73, seeing a CHP cruiser merging onto the freeway.

I was weary of the CHP, but continued to follow the car in front of me. I remember seeing briefly in the side mirrors the CHP pulling into the #2 lane about 5 car lengths behind me. He seemed to be content in that location, so I got back into my comfortable riding position to follow the car in front of me.

Shortly thereafter, the car in front of me was visibly uncomfortable with me following him. I was at a respectable distance, but I could see him constantly checking his mirror, and veering to the left edge of the carpool lane. He was also speaking on his cell phone.

About an 1/8 mile later, the car pulled to the extreme left side of the carpool lane, and kept waving me by. I was hesitant at first, but after a few seconds of urging, I decided to pass him, as he was slowing down slightly, leaving a bigger and bigger gap in front of him, and I was feeling less safe because the car behind me started creeping up on me.

I dropped down 1 gear, and quickly passed him on the right, and then slowed back down to ~65mph.

Approximately 10 seconds after that, I noticed the CHP officer who was behind me is working his way through traffic w/ his lights on. I was surprised when he pulled directly behind me, and instructed me to pull over. I followed his instructions as he shielded me from the traffic and pulled off to the side of the freeway.

The officer informed me that he had me exceeding 80mph, and also crossing over the double yellow line in my pass. I tried to explain to him what had happened, but he seemed un-responsive.

Given that I was not looking at my speedometer when I made the pass (on a motorcycle, the speedometer is located fairly low, and to look at the speed would require me to look down, and take my eye off the road ahead of me, which is rather dangerous thing to do while passing someone), I asked the officer how he determined my speed. He informed me that he had me on radar. I asked about the radar reading, but he did not bring me to his cruiser to show me the speed.

In retrospect, I should have insisted on seeing the radar readout, because I don't believe I was going that speed. Regardless of the speed though, I believe what I did was the right thing

DEFENSE
CVC 22349 (a) is very specific re: maximum speed as far as the word of the law, but I believe what I did was prudent to the spirit of the law. I offer the following as factual evidence of my innocence.

Double yellow

Even though I was not cited with crossing the double yellow during my pass, I believe the officer had intended to cite me on it, but realized that he lacked evidence to back him up.

He was located 2 lanes over, several car lengths back, with moderate traffic in his Line of Sight between his car and my bike. There was literally no way he could see where my tires were on the pavement. His only point of reference would be my proximity to the car I was passing.

As I stated in my narrative in the previous section, the car ahead of me had moved to the extreme left of the lane, and waved me by him. I believed at the time that it was the safest course of action for both of us (myself, and the driver in front of me) for me to pass him because it was obviously making him uncomfortable.

Speeding

I am contesting this on 2 main points:
1. The speed, whatever it was, was performed in the interest of safety, both for myself, and those sharing the road around me.
2. I was not provided with proof of speed.

I made my pass only after determining, to the best of my judgement, that it was much safer for me to quickly pass the car in front of me, than to remain behind him. The result of which would have been a very uncomfortable driver in front of me, and a very anxious driver behind me.

During my MSF (motorcycle safety foundation) course, I was taught specifically to avoid situations like this where the motorcycle is essentially being boxed in, where I would be the most vulnerable party.

I executed the pass as instructed in my MSF course, lower gear, make eye contact with the person you're passing, quickly and safely pass the car, and return to your normal speed. I performed exactly that, in order to increase my own safety as well as those around me.

PICTURES/DIAGRAMS
I suggest 3-4 pictures, taking up 2 pages.

1. overall map of the area you got the ticket at, google it, 2 sq mi would be good.
2. blowup map of the area of the ticket, 1/4 mi square
3. picture 1 - taken from carpool lane, as wide of an area as you can find (doesn't have to be the area you were ticketed, just make sure there's no street signs or landmarks to identify it to the contrary) with a SMALL car in it.
4. picture 2 - photoshop picture w/ the car to the left, and your bike to the right (I can help with this, if you send me pic 1).

SUMMATION
I believe that the officer was performing his duty to the best of his perspective, but I do feel that in the context of what happened, the spirit of the law should be paramount.

What I did, was for the greater safety of myself, as well as those I share the road with. I was always in control of my vehicle, and aware of my surrounding. I executed manuvers toward safety to the best of my ability as instructed to me by the safety experts (MSF).

Given the information provided in this defense, I request that my momentary offense of the posted speed limit be dismissed.

Thank you,
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Re: CHP Ticket help/advice needed

Post by Steve Ekstrand »

I'm confused. Were you cited for speed or did you get a verbal warning.

Only defend yourself for things you are charged with.
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Re: CHP Ticket help/advice needed

Post by Marshall Grice »

so wait, the TBD form needs to be turned in on your ticket due date? ...crap my ticket is due the 15th.
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Re: CHP Ticket help/advice needed

Post by Jeff Shyu »

hahahaha.. guess you'll be doing something besides looking at the data this weekend, ehh?.. :P
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Re: CHP Ticket help/advice needed

Post by Marshall Grice »

maybe i can talk aaron into stopping by the fountain valley city hall and picking up a traffic survey for magnolia.
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Re: CHP Ticket help/advice needed

Post by Kurt Rahn »

I'll bring a book this weekend that has a sample motion that you can file to the court.
That'd be great, Lily! Thanks!
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Re: CHP Ticket help/advice needed

Post by Kurt Rahn »

Marshall Grice wrote:so wait, the TBD form needs to be turned in on your ticket due date? ...crap my ticket is due the 15th.
The way Ticket Assassin describes it, first you file for TBD and send in the bail $$$, then once it's granted, you write your argument and send it in. I've never done it before, though, so I'm not sure.
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Re: CHP Ticket help/advice needed

Post by Marshall Grice »

Marshall Grice wrote:maybe i can talk aaron into stopping by the fountain valley city hall and picking up a traffic survey for magnolia.
crap, my planning sucks. turn around time at fountain valley city clerks office is 10 working days. :cry:

TBD is due monday. :cry:
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Re: CHP Ticket help/advice needed

Post by Jeff Shyu »

well, FYI, i don't know for sure that you have to turn it in at the time. I just have always done it that way because the TWD form seems to want you to include everything.

may want to give them a call to confirm
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Re: CHP Ticket help/advice needed

Post by Marshall Grice »

ah what the hell, i'll just do traffic school i guess.

i mean my MTBT(mean time between tickets) has dropped significantly from back in the days when i got 3 in one weekend. :oops:
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Re: CHP Ticket help/advice needed

Post by Jeff Shyu »

Marshall Grice wrote:ah what the hell, i'll just do traffic school i guess.

i mean my MTBT(mean time between tickets) has dropped significantly from back in the days when i got 3 in one weekend. :oops:
you realize OC traffic school means a full day saturday at the courthouse in costa mesa/newport, right?

i'd at least give them a call tomorrow and clarify if the TWD form needs to be mailed with the check, or later.
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Re: CHP Ticket help/advice needed

Post by Craig Naylor »

Wow, reading your write ups....I'm dead! 52 in 35. My only argument is there was no speed limit signs from the point I turned onto the road 1/2 mile before the hiding place, and the next one is about 1 1/2 miles after where I was pulled over. I personally thought the speed limit was 45, didn't think I was traveling the speed written up, but as I hit my brakes for a red light in front of me before being pulled over, I have no idea what I was doing when he hit me with the radar.

Can you send me your "packet"

Interesting... opening the mail here as I'm answering a question for my daughter, before returning to the posting.... My citation notice has my name as: Caarl Miller... looking at my ticket, reading the chicken scratch... I would agree with the first name error, but my last name is clearly spelt, apparently the person typing the letter, can't copy well. Everything else address, DL#, car plate, etc.... all correct. Doubt that error would get me far.

I was a little surprised by this the last line on the letter, after talking about traffic school options. "The dismissal will appear on your DMV record and your insurance may be adversely affected"

I thought the whole idea behind Traffic school, was to remove it from your record, and your insurance company would not learn about it.
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Re: CHP Ticket help/advice needed

Post by George Schilling »

Craig Naylor wrote:Wow, reading your write ups....I'm dead! 52 in 35. My only argument is there was no speed limit signs from the point I turned onto the road 1/2 mile before the hiding place, and the next one is about 1 1/2 miles after where I was pulled over. I personally thought the speed limit was 45, didn't think I was traveling the speed written up, but as I hit my brakes for a red light in front of me before being pulled over, I have no idea what I was doing when he hit me with the radar.

Can you send me your "packet"

Interesting... opening the mail here as I'm answering a question for my daughter, before returning to the posting.... My citation notice has my name as: Caarl Miller... looking at my ticket, reading the chicken scratch... I would agree with the first name error, but my last name is clearly spelt, apparently the person typing the letter, can't copy well. Everything else address, DL#, car plate, etc.... all correct. Doubt that error would get me far.

I was a little surprised by this the last line on the letter, after talking about traffic school options. "The dismissal will appear on your DMV record and your insurance may be adversely affected"

I thought the whole idea behind Traffic school, was to remove it from your record, and your insurance company would not learn about it.
Craig, I just got out of a 53 in a 30 on radar using a TWD.

He wrote you for a 22350. If you read the code, it says nothing about exceeding the speed limit. Explain the circumstances to me on Sunday and I'll give you some direction.
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Re: CHP Ticket help/advice needed

Post by Jeff Shyu »

nothing is beyond arguing in court.

I got out of doing 90 in a 45 on PCH (on the motorcycle). that was a straight up fight too, no fibbing.
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Re: CHP Ticket help/advice needed

Post by Jeff Shyu »

George Schilling wrote:He wrote you for a 22350. If you read the code, it says nothing about exceeding the speed limit. Explain the circumstances to me on Sunday and I'll give you some direction.
what George said.

"basic speed law" is about as open ended of a code as you can get.. you probably thought those "speed limit" signs on the road meant speed limits, right?.. those are -suggested safe speed limit- The cop is citing you for exceeding the suggested safe speed. your task is to show that your speed, while it might have been higher than the sign, was still safe.
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Re: CHP Ticket help/advice needed

Post by George Schilling »

Jeff Shyu wrote:
George Schilling wrote:He wrote you for a 22350. If you read the code, it says nothing about exceeding the speed limit. Explain the circumstances to me on Sunday and I'll give you some direction.
what George said.

"basic speed law" is about as open ended of a code as you can get.. you probably thought those "speed limit" signs on the road meant speed limits, right?.. those are -suggested safe speed limit- The cop is citing you for exceeding the suggested safe speed. your task is to show that your speed, while it might have been higher than the sign, was still safe.
Yes and no. It's actually the officer's job to prove your speed was unsafe. Your defense on a TWD could be as simple as "At no time did I (insert the terms of the statue)." Of course your chances are increased if you take the individual parts of the law and make a statement about each one such as "the weather was clear" or "road conditions were dry." If the officer responds to the TWD by saying I got him on radar at 55 in a 30, he has offered no testimony to refute the fact that you at no time violated the law. Remember, 22350 says nothing about speed limits. Without that testimony, your case should be dismissed.
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Re: CHP Ticket help/advice needed

Post by Pat O\'Neal »

In the "85 on the freeway" one, in the narrative, you said "I was weary of the CHP, but continued to follow the car in front of me."

As accurate as that may be, you might want to change "weary" to "wary". Definitely an unfortunate typo!

Pat.
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