F125 is not in CPM or did I miss ---

[Eric Clements]

Don, what do you feel is bad/unfair about karts in CPM?

Eric,they are not in the class by the rules!

Don

OK, so you're not conceptually against karts in the class.
Your only problem is that karts are not specifically called out in 7.x.x.x.

Explain to me why is it acceptable for you to choose to move into the combined class when you have a class...

[Eric Clements]

If I were in your shoes and you in mine this would never have gotten this far in the first place. If I had a kart and I went to Rick and asked him to score me as a CPM, for the reason you did, he would have told me to get lost after telling me that I was trying to gain an advantage over the other CPM's or you already have a class of 3 or the computer won't allow it or I don't have the time or go ask all the other competitors if it is OK. But, it would never have happened.

Yes, Sunday was unfair, the ability in a local event to change the tires for every run is a kart advantage. Tom sure couldn't, Irish and Renee sure couldn't, I might be able to if I had an orange whip or some new orange race shoes for QV.

I didn't ask Rick to score me in CPM. I entered CPM.
Nobody changed tires for every run. Jon & I put the rains on before the heat started. Rick changed tires when the event was stopped to rebuild the course (I'm guessing here, I didn't actually see him swap tires). With a cordless impact a set of car tires can be changed in about 5 minutes, if you choose not to do it that doesn't make it unfair.

[Eric Clements]

Ron, you seem to have missed the point----There is a class, clearly defined in 7.2.3

And, no we can't "just get along" if we start changing or making rules after 3 events to satisfy one person (either Eric for points or Rick for some "future maybe"). Change the rule by the rules----like they did for Historic 2.

Read 7.2.3 again. It says if you don't have a class (2 drivers) you may be combined and scored on index.
Currently there is no CPM class. There is no allowance for anyone to choose to move to the index class in 7.2.3

If we don't change or make rules, Don and QV are stuck in GP, Tom, Irish and Renee go back to EP, Rick, Jon and I go back to F125. KJ can get bumped to the index class where he'll still be a class of one.

Is that what you want or does it make more sense to put a combined/index/bump class in the supps and go racing?

Maybe we should all get EV's or ECV's :gpower:

[Eric Clements]

Eric this is what is bad/unfair about karts in CPM.Modified Class A (AM).Cars with a minimum weight of 900lbs with driver and a minimum72-inch wheelbase,plus Formula SAE as specified in Section 18.5 .GCR-compliant Formula S and GCR-compliant ASR vehicies may compete in this class.Class (BM) All Formula Cars or Sports Racers compliant onder the current year GCR. Page 35 3.3 VEHICLE SAFETY.3.3.2 Roll Bars are required in all (AM/BM/CM/FM/) and all open (DM/EM and Prepared cars).2011 SCCA National Solo Roles.

Not quite sure I'm following you here. Lack of a roll bar makes karts unfair?? Or all the classes you listed shouldn't be in a combined class??

[Don Salyers]

Don, what do you feel is bad/unfair about karts in CPM?

Eric,they are not in the class by the rules!

Don

OK, so you're not conceptually against karts in the class.
Your only problem is that karts are not specifically called out in 7.x.x.x.

Explain to me why is it acceptable for you to choose to move into the combined class when you have a class...

First, yes I am conceptually against karts running against cars.

I did not know we had a choice. We will run GP for the year, if that is what the rules say. We do not have a problem following the rules! I am also sure that John Edwards, Craig Way, David, QV and I will enjoy fighting it out each month (if at least 1 car is running }:) ). Tom and Irish would probably enjoy the head-to-head comp. also.

Which also puts you and your son in the CM class and I really don't know why you choose to run with CPM.

Also, then I would propose that next year the Modified and Prepared cars be divided into seperate classes and if you and Rick wish to do away with F125 as a stand-alone class you can then run with the Modified cars. I would also propose that it should take more than just 1 car with a driver and a co-driver to constitute a class.

But, this sure seems like alot of BS just so that you can get 100 pts and establish Rick in the CPM class.......

Just drop your scores from last weekend down to F125. Run the CM car on Sundays and have Rick talk KJ into co-driving the AM.

No problem, no changes, no panties in a bunch......

Don

[Eric Clements]

Which also puts you and your son in the CM class and I really don't know why you choose to run with CPM.

Also, then I would propose that next year the Modified and Prepared cars be divided into seperate classes and if you and Rick wish to do away with F125 as a stand-alone class you can then run with the Modified cars. I would also propose that it should take more than just 1 car with a driver and a co-driver to constitute a class.

But, this sure seems like alot of BS just so that you can get 100 pts

I think Solo is about competition, we ran the CM car in CPM to have some competition.

If it was just about getting 100pts I would have started the year with the kart and brought out the CM after it had some development time and fresh tires. Having driven the CM early in the year in a well subscribed class will make it easy to track improvements as we develop a setup for it.

I already sent a proposal. More than 2 drivers to make a class sounds good to me, you should send it to the E Board.

[Patrick Mc Bride]

Eric if you read the rules for prep/mod it is self explanatory as to why karts are not in either class.As to why I run in CMP its because when I register in EP I am automatically put into CMP

[Marshall Grice]

It's not like you guys are running head to head. each class has a roughly appropriate index to correct for the performance differential.

It seems somewhat odd to me that we actually track CPM as a class for points considering it's not a real class by national or local rules.

[Don Salyers]

It's not like you guys are running head to head. each class has a roughly appropriate index to correct for the performance differential.

It seems somewhat odd to me that we actually track CPM as a class for points considering it's not a real class by national or local rules.

Agreed., take the GP cars out of the argument and the totally classless CPM. In fact, I checked the entries before the event and John Edwards had entered GP with no Pax classification.

Don

[Earl Merz]

Years ago most prep and mods ran their own class. Then a few loud people wanted to make all prep and mods run CPM. even when there were up to 4 competitors in a class. Even with the fight the drivers put up, the powers that be decided to make them run CPM even if they did have a class. Now people are blaming the drivers because they can't run anything but Pax or CPM? Wow! Don't blame the drivers, it's the leaderships fault.

Personally I would be against F125 in CPM. They don't fit the rules. Per the Solo rules and the GCR rules governing the road race cars in Mod, they all have to have wheels sprung from the chassis. Along with minimum wheelbase and track requirements.

[Steve Ekstrand]

That's not my memory from taking notes at the actual meetings where it was discussed Earl.

The discussion was making CPM the default with an opt out for (the exact example given was Pat and Earl running FP) people wanting to run their own class and who usually had at least two competitors.

The reasoning was, that if you defaulted to the class and then shifted to CPM if no competition, season points got screwed up. So the thought was put everybody in CPM so they had a season points battle unless some regular P&M types knew they'd usually make class.

This thread is not exactly, uhm... impressive.

[Earl Merz]

Steve, if that was true, why did John, Jay, Pat, and I have to fight it out with the hosting club because they bunched us all together in CPM when we all registered FP? Not once, but several times. There were several discussions at events, on the forums, and even in the Rules Commitee(which I was a part of at that time) meetings. At the time, Bill Martin was the only competitor who was cool with CPM. The other competitors all had a class.

[Rick Brown]

The idea behind a prepared or modified car is exactly that... to prepare and modify a stock bodied car, or build one up from scratch to be competitive within a certain set of guidelines.

For prepared yes. For modified no. Many of the mod classes are based on purpose built road racing cars, BM (Formula atlantics, sports racers) CM, (formula fords, sports 2000) and FM (formula vee, f500)

Don, what do you feel is bad/unfair about karts in CPM?

Eric,they are not in the class by the rules! If you think it is fair then why don't you make that proposal to who-ever and ask for a rule change for next year. Or am I missing the point or the process.

If I were in your shoes and you in mine this would never have gotten this far in the first place. If I had a kart and I went to Rick and asked him to score me as a CPM, for the reason you did, he would have told me to get lost after telling me that I was trying to gain an advantage over the other CPM's or you already have a class of 3 or the computer won't allow it or I don't have the time or go ask all the other competitors if it is OK. But, it would never have happened.

Yes, Sunday was unfair, the ability in a local event to change the tires for every run is a kart advantage. Tom sure couldn't, Irish and Renee sure couldn't, I might be able to if I had an orange whip or some new orange race shoes for QV.

Don

You don't know me at all. I would have handled it exactly the same way. I don't favor friends or fellow class members over others for something like that. I thought about it and based on previous experience where F125 was treated as a modified vehicle, I said sure, why not. Being that I race mainly for fun these days, I admittedly don't spend a lot of time reading all the current rules. I am not defending the right or wrong of the current situation, just my thoughts at the time. When I noticed that Jon was also registered in CPM, I figured I might as well go too so we can all run together.

Eric and Jon changed their tires before the group started runs. I didn't because we thought it would be interesting to see the difference. It's been said that you only need rain tires when there is standing or running water, not just a wet surface - at least for karts. "They" were wrong.

I changed mine after 2 runs when there was all that down time for cone remarking (may be a little faster than some cars because we don't have to jack, but still have to remove lug nuts, change wheels and reinstall lug nuts). Otherwise I wouldn't have. Anybody would have had enough time to do it then.

BTW, if you want to go by just what is actually written in the rules, you, QV and John are not allowed in CPM since you have enough to make a class on your own. Under what was decided at a meeting when we combined everyone, you do have that as an option. That is of course one of the difficulties of things that are just in meeting minutes, not everyone will know about it down the road.