The ant and the grasshopper

[George Schilling]

And when an American can learn to have basic respect for other Americans - and not call for their murder - maybe then I'll consider voting in a way that they would approve of.

Yep, the dems control the hot button "feel good" issues.

No, George. This is what I was referring to.

Does the Orkin man gas the liberals? I'd pay for that.

But thanks for missing the obvious point that today's conservatives have adopted UnAmerican behaviors that no American should be proud of.

It's one thing to disagree with someone else that's on your team, it's fully another thing to call for their execution because of the disagreement. Where are we, 1937 Germany?

Oops, sorry Larry. I thought you were referring to the death penalty. I recognized Steve's comment for what it was.

Could you site some of those behaviors?

[Larry Andrews]

George - I think it's safe to say that you've had a chance to evaluate my work ethic first hand.

[George Schilling]

Thanks for missing the obvious point that today's conservatives have adopted UnAmerican behaviors that no American should be proud of.

Sorry Larry. I was referring to this. I may not agree with all conservative values, but I don't have reason to believe any are un-American or anything to be ashamed of. That's why I'm asking you to site examples. I was just curious what values you feel conservatives should be ashamed of.

[Jeff Shyu]

the conservative right making religion a very political issue is one reason why i don't identify myself with the republican party. I wouldn't go so far as to call it un-american though.

i'm interested to hear the debate moderated by Rick Warren. been meaning to make it to one of his saddleback sermons after i read his book.

[George Schilling]

the conservative right making religion a very political issue is one reason why i don't identify myself with the republican party. I wouldn't go so far as to call it un-american though.

i'm interested to hear the debate moderated by Rick Warren. been meaning to make it to one of his saddleback sermons after i read his book.

Interesting you would say that Jeff. I'm curious as to what's the religious agenda you're talking about? References to God go back to the very roots of our country and are certainly central to our core values. It's liberals who have made religion a political issue by wanting to remove it from every aspect of public life. This was not the intent of the framers of the Constitution. BTW, it's not all liberals and certainly not all democrats. But this is the view that the Democratic Party has embraced. I don't know if you noticed, but after 9/11, the dems in congress were praying just as hard as the conservatives.

[Jeff Shyu]

therein lies one of the big problems i have with the dem party, and why i've strayed from them. Dem have steadily moved toward the right, in order to try to cater to the generally more conservative attitude after 9/11.

i think it's safe to say that no one is 100% democrat, nor 100% republican.

the country is framed around some of the most powerful ideas presented in religion, but it was also framed to maintain a separation of church and state. So much of the republican platform caters to the religious right. Why is abortion and gay rights even being debated on the national level? it's a religious driven debate. It would be great, to one day, see a VIABLE presidential candidate to come out and say "I'm an atheist, but I challenge anyone to dispute my moral standards".

it'll never happen though.

[Kevin Price]

Nice rant Kevin

Thanks, I try.

In my lifetime I have never asked for anyone to pay for my dinner. I may not have had steak all my life, but I never begrudged those that did. Today it's quite different. Values have changed. A large segment of society now feel entitled to the spoils of the of the ants despite their unwillingness to earn those spoils. Talking about this does not make one a victim.

The fact that most people accept these changing values I find very disheartening. These are not the values that make for a successful society IMHO. Talking about the direction the country is going certainly does not make one a victim.

George, you're not the only one out there who apparently worked his way from poverty to affluence. But to say on one hand that you're not complaining, and then turn around and complain about taxes, how dumb kids these days are, how much values have diminished (not yours, of course, but everyone elses) and how everyone is trying to mooch off you is very much "playing the victim." Saying "I'm virtuous and hard working and moral and deserving, and everyone else isn't, and those bad guys are ruining it for me" is exactly, precisely, what victim politics is all about.

You seem to think that "kids today" are the problem, but I would submit to you that kids today are not very different from kids 20 or 30 or 40 years ago. Sure, they do different things, they have shinier toys and ipods and cell phones, but under all that fluff they're the same people they always were. 20 year old soldiers serve nobly in Iraq just like they did in past wars. Aren't they as worthy of respect as your generation was? Or are they part of the problem too? And yet, back then, other kids got in trouble, dropped out of school, and got thrown in jail. Were they somehow better than the ones who do that today? Didn't people used to complain that the Irish immigrants were ruining things, then the Italians, then whoever? Didn't people used to complain that hippies were ruining the 60's, that dope smoking soldiers were ruining the army? (I wouldn't know, I was barely alive).

So what has changed over the years? You and I have, bro ;) That's the biggest difference between then and now. Maybe you have a grand idea of how noble and hardworking you were and are, and a grander idea of how much people suck these days, but both views are probably a little wrong.

[George Schilling]

therein lies one of the big problems i have with the dem party, and why i've strayed from them. Dem have steadily moved toward the right, in order to try to cater to the generally more conservative attitude after 9/11.

i think it's safe to say that no one is 100% democrat, nor 100% republican.

the country is framed around some of the most powerful ideas presented in religion, but it was also framed to maintain a separation of church and state. So much of the republican platform caters to the religious right. Why is abortion and gay rights even being debated on the national level? it's a religious driven debate. It would be great, to one day, see a VIABLE presidential candidate to come out and say "I'm an atheist, but I challenge anyone to dispute my moral standards".

it'll never happen though.

to

Actually, our founders feared the establishment of state sponsored religion. It was never intended to keep religion out of the public square. God is referenced often in government, less now of course than earlier in our history. As for an atheist being elected president, it could happen in Europe were religion is much less relevant. But like it or not, we are a Christian nation.

Jeff, I haven't heard either of these issues discussed in any of the debates, nor has either candidate made it an issue to the best of my knowledge. Roe vs. Wade highlights on one the major differences between the parties. The dems are more likely to use courts to push their agenda ala Roe vs Wade. Conservatives, by an large, feel the court overstepped it's bounds in this decision and would like to see it overturned. In the past, pro abortion proponents used the scare tactic that if this happens, we would return to "back room" abortions. Not true. It would merely return the decision to the states where people overwhelmingly support abortion as an option. It's unlikely anything would change, but if it did, it would reflect the values of the voters, not the court.

I not sure what rights I have that gays do not. But conservatives, by and large, think that everyone should be treated equally. I can only assume you're referring to the right of a state sanctioned marriage? I'd like to marry my son Joey. After all, I love him. He already lives with me. I'd save at least $10,000 a year in taxes if we were married instead of just father and son. Is it fair that I can't marry him? $10,000 a year man. If it's about love, we qualify. Instead of focusing on this, how about focusing on reversing the current trend and getting government out of our private lives?

[Jeff Shyu]

a lot of things have changed since the founding of our country, and a lot of things are outdated and in need of change.

I believe that religion was a big part of everyday life back in the early stages of our country, and remains so this day, but I don't think it was intended to be an integral part of politics. I think it's simply a prorogation of the white collar backbone of our country, where religion is taught from childhood, and MADE an integral part of their lives.

I think religion is important to the upper class, the lower class, but not so much for the middle class citizens.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

the conservative right making religion a very political issue is one reason why i don't identify myself with the republican party. I wouldn't go so far as to call it un-american though.

i'm interested to hear the debate moderated by Rick Warren. been meaning to make it to one of his saddleback sermons after i read his book.

Interesting you would say that Jeff. I'm curious as to what's the religious agenda you're talking about? References to God go back to the very roots of our country and are certainly central to our core values. It's liberals who have made religion a political issue by wanting to remove it from every aspect of public life. This was not the intent of the framers of the Constitution. BTW, it's not all liberals and certainly not all democrats. But this is the view that the Democratic Party has embraced. I don't know if you noticed, but after 9/11, the dems in congress were praying just as hard as the conservatives.

I'm not pushing for the removal of religion from public life, but I won't stand for public money to be expended on ANY religion.

[Jeff Shyu]

on the issue of abortion and same sex marriage, i'm actually more on the side of "laisez faire". I really don't care one way or another. My opinion is that it shouldn't be a deciding factor in a presidential election.

you haven't heard the candidates debate about it, because they both know it's a volatile issue. Both of their voting records are known on the issue, and a "flip flop" in either would be disastrous. Regardless if they TALK about it, it's still a very present issue. Your talk shows on either side of the isle bring up their personal stance on these issues like the opposition is going to bring about your personal damnation if you vote for em.

i don't have the answers, i just know i don't like it. much like the 2 party system.

[Steve Ekstrand]

Religion and tradition are closely twined in American history and culture.

Demographic trends are trampling all over that....

http://www.wsmv.com/news/17063986/detail.html#-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

700 of 1200 workers in a Tennessee Tyson plant are Muslims? Mostly from Somalia.

[Steve Ekstrand]

I'm not pushing for the removal of religion from public life, but I won't stand for public money to be expended on ANY religion.

I hear that a lot, my students say it, but I'm never sure what it means.

A school district offers its facilities for community groups to use after hours.
Any problems with the following?
Gay and Lesbian group
Irish American group
Methodist Church Bible Study group
NAACP Meeting
AA meeting
Elks Lodge meeting
Boy Scout troop
Newman Club Social
American Socialist Party Meeting
Greenpeace

[Bob Beamesderfer]

I'm not pushing for the removal of religion from public life, but I won't stand for public money to be expended on ANY religion.

I hear that a lot, my students say it, but I'm never sure what it means.

A school district offers its facilities for community groups to use after hours.
Any problems with the following?
Gay and Lesbian group
Irish American group
Methodist Church Bible Study group
NAACP Meeting
AA meeting
Elks Lodge meeting
Boy Scout troop
Newman Club Social
American Socialist Party Meeting
Greenpeace

Making a public facility equally available to all isn't the same thing as a school district deciding that the school day begins with a prayer. Whose prayer? Catholic? Bahai? Zoroastrianism? Jewish? Muslim? Hindu? Sikh? Budhist chant? Spin a Tibetan prayer wheel? Hail Mary, full of grace, keep the Angels in 1st place?

[George Schilling]

Thanks, I try.

George, you're not the only one out there who apparently worked his way from poverty to affluence. But to say on one hand that you're not complaining, and then turn around and complain about taxes, how dumb kids these days are, how much values have diminished (not yours, of course, but everyone elses) and how everyone is trying to mooch off you is very much "playing the victim." Saying "I'm virtuous and hard working and moral and deserving, and everyone else isn't, and those bad guys are ruining it for me" is exactly, precisely, what victim politics is all about.

You seem to think that "kids today" are the problem, but I would submit to you that kids today are not very different from kids 20 or 30 or 40 years ago. Sure, they do different things, they have shinier toys and ipods and cell phones, but under all that fluff they're the same people they always were. 20 year old soldiers serve nobly in Iraq just like they did in past wars. Aren't they as worthy of respect as your generation was? Or are they part of the problem too? And yet, back then, other kids got in trouble, dropped out of school, and got thrown in jail. Were they somehow better than the ones who do that today? Didn't people used to complain that the Irish immigrants were ruining things, then the Italians, then whoever? Didn't people used to complain that hippies were ruining the 60's, that dope smoking soldiers were ruining the army? (I wouldn't know, I was barely alive).

So what has changed over the years? You and I have, bro ;) That's the biggest difference between then and now. Maybe you have a grand idea of how noble and hardworking you were and are, and a grander idea of how much people suck these days, but both views are probably a little wrong.

Kevin, I wish you wouldn't make this personal. Although reluctant, I told of my past in response to the fact that you accused me of having a victim mentality. I have never been a victim and I can't let you get away with that. Discussing issues, whether you agree or disagree, does not make one a victim. You are also putting words in my mouth that I neither said nor believe.

And I'm not complaining. Everything I say I believe to be factually accurate and provable. I'll admit when I'm wrong. Kevin if you think that I can't tell whether things are the same or different than they were when I was kid, your smoking something. Can I come over?

I'm going to once again try to make my point. IT'S NOT ABOUT ME! I want all children today to have the same opportunities that I had when I was young so that they can become successful and live a prosperous and happy life. This will not be possible if taxes keep rising and values keep declining.

Kevin, things have changed dramatically since I was a child. Education is one very important example. Kids are more ignorant than ever. This is a provable fact. I don't blame the kids. It's the adults. We're the roll models. If we don't do our jobs as parents, what can we expect? Ask any teacher Kevin, the number one factor for success in school, with all other factors being equal, is parental involvement.

Values have definitely declined. Personal responsibility has been replaced with shifting the blame. "It's not my fault the car drove through the garage door. I was just sitting there with the motor running when a mysterious force suddenly made my foot hit the gas pedal. If the manufacturer hadn't located the gas pedal there, nothing would have happened".

And last of all, Kevin, I'm very grateful for everything this country has afforded me. I'm grateful for our volunteer armed forces. And yes they have my respect. I have no clue what would make you think otherwise. But then again, you do like to put words in my mouth. ;)

Our country Kevin, has a lot of problems. I bring up these problems from time to time in an attempt to stimulate thought and hopefully change minds. I don't believe the typical liberal solution to most problems is helpful and I have made it my business to try and reverse the trend toward the nanny state.

[George Schilling]

Where did this obsession with religion in government come from. Is there some sort of groundswell to inject religion in government that I'm not aware of? I just don't think this is an issue.

Great point Steve with that list.

Why were the Boy Scouts kicked out of public facilities? Because they have values they wanted to preserve and would not succumb to the liberal agenda? Are they a positive influence on boys? Without a doubt. And would they be excoriated if it came to light that a gay scout leader was molesting boys? Of course. But it doesn't matter. It's a christian organization. That's all that matters. This is the liberal agenda. Anything christian must go. Does anyone think this is productive? If this isn't an indication of changing valves, I don't know what is?

[Steve Ekstrand]

Making a public facility equally available to all isn't the same thing as a school district deciding that the school day begins with a prayer. Whose prayer? Catholic? Bahai? Zoroastrianism? Jewish? Muslim? Hindu? Sikh? Budhist chant? Spin a Tibetan prayer wheel? Hail Mary, full of grace, keep the Angels in 1st place?

My real point was fear the absolute statements. On the legal side of things a blanket no public spending law could block many of those uses even if the policy is content neutral and allows fair and equitable access to all groups.

As for school prayer, what about beginning the day with a silent minute of personal reflection. It serves many roles easily. Even for atheists it serves our primal need for ritual. And a way to calm the monkeys down. And teach some discipline in the schools---have sister Mari swat the noisy ones knuckles with her machinists rule. Atleast one of the five formal muslim prayer times occurs during school hours--usually at the noon break. How do you accomodate these students. They need a clean place to kneel. If you allow them a classroom during lunch have you violated the "no public money" policy? Apparently, they better figure this one out in Shelbyville, TN.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

This is the liberal agenda. Anything christian must go.

That is, to quote Harry Truman, "the biggest bunch of Goddamn bull**** I've ever heard."

[George Schilling]

This is the liberal agenda. Anything christian must go.

That is, to quote Harry Truman, "the biggest bunch of Goddamn bull**** I've ever heard."

Thanks for joining the conversation Bob.

I'm prepared to be corrected. So who's behind it?

[Steve Ekstrand]

This is the liberal agenda. Anything christian must go.

That is, to quote Harry Truman, "the biggest bunch of Goddamn bull**** I've ever heard."

Maybe its an exaggeration, but greater hyperbole is in your quote. Christians are under attack.

Instead of fostering personal freedoms we are focused mainly on the freedom from religion not the free exercise thereof.

And specifically its open season on all things Christian, while at the same time political correctness means we bend over backwards and jump through little hoops and over high hurdles to accommodate everything from Muslims to Wicca.

Granted we have Christian holidays like Christmas and Easter on the calendar. But I think at some point you have to recognize and give deference to history, tradition, and culture.

[Kurt Rahn]

indication of changing valves

Did America suddenly go VTEC when I wasn't looking?

Sorry, just trying to inject some levity.

[Kurt Rahn]

And specifically its open season on all things Christian, while at the same time political correctness means we bend over backwards and jump through little hoops and over high hurdles to accommodate everything from Muslims to Wicca.

True. Same problem with being a white, middle-class male. We're paying overtime for all the crap non-white, non-male, non-middle-class people had to go through over the last 200 or so years.

[Jeff Shyu]

you're not getting any of that from the asians..

we don't expect anyone to help us, we just do it ourselves, and be thankful if help presents itself..

[Bob Beamesderfer]

This is the liberal agenda. Anything christian must go.

That is, to quote Harry Truman, "the biggest bunch of Goddamn bull**** I've ever heard."

Maybe its an exaggeration, but greater hyperbole is in your quote. Christians are under attack.

Instead of fostering personal freedoms we are focused mainly on the freedom from religion not the free exercise thereof.

And specifically its open season on all things Christian, while at the same time political correctness means we bend over backwards and jump through little hoops and over high hurdles to accommodate everything from Muslims to Wicca.

Granted we have Christian holidays like Christmas and Easter on the calendar. But I think at some point you have to recognize and give deference to history, tradition, and culture.

Who, specifically, is attacking Christians and over what?

Where was the conservative outrage when the Presbyterian church in Tucson was charged with harboring illegal Salvadoran immigrants in the '80s? I was working in AZ at the time and I didn't see John McCain or Jon Kyl come running to their defense.

Am I attacking all Christians or Christianity itself when I say that Pat Robertson is an ass for saying the 9/11 attacks are some divine or other punishment for what he believes are this country's ills?

[Steve Ekstrand]

Am I attacking all Christians or Christianity itself when I say that Pat Robertson is an ass for saying the 9/11 attacks are some divine or other punishment for what he believes are this country's ills?

Pretty much think you're just attacking an arrogant, intolerant, asshole.