ABS and Stability control "free" in Prepared (25235)

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Jason Swindle
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ABS and Stability control "free" in Prepared (25235)

Post by Jason Swindle » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:45 pm

I'm not sure if anyone caught this in the July Fastrack, but the proposal (#25235) to allow ANY ABS and/or stability control in Prepaired seems ludicrous to me. The costs associated (~10K) with the really good ABS systems and the resultant benefits would seem to make such a system mandatory to be competitive in Prepared. Add to that traction control (~7K) and it really seems like SCCA is going to price the vast majority of competators out of Prepared....

So, I'm writing a letter, but it seems based on the July Fastrack that these are largely being ignored. Is there another approach I should be taking as well? This rule change MUST not pass or it will essentially kill Prepared...

Thanks,
Jason "was looking at CP" Swindle

For reference:

http://www.gomuchfaster.com/bosch/bosch-abs/

https://www.a1racing.com/davistechnolog ... gKNn_D_BwE

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Anthony P.
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Re: ABS and Stability control "free" in Prepared (25235)

Post by Anthony P. » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:54 pm

Megasquirt has traction control built in to the programming... so, included in the price of an ecu you could solider together if you were looking to save money. And if there were newer cars in c prepared with abs...


Now, full stability control... that would be nuts. Agreed.

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Mike Simanyi
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Re: ABS and Stability control "free" in Prepared (25235)

Post by Mike Simanyi » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:09 pm

I'm well out of the loop on the SEB side of things, but perhaps Marshall could chime in here and explain some of the background for consideration.

I know that Prepared has been... "stable" (to use a positive term) on their ruleset, but when someone in an OE car comes in and romps on people there (cough CP cough) and happens to have an ABS- and traction-control-equipped car, I can understand how some people feel the need to address allowances.

Marshall, is this subject related to anything like that?

As for the allowance, what if members were allowed to update/backdate to a production ABS computer and hardware? I know that for my BMW, some of the best options were/are using the E46 M3's ABS system or even the Subaru STI ABS system. While not cheap, at least these aren't "competition" systems with commensurate price tags. In theory, I could acquire them at a pick-your-parts wrecking yard and adapt it to my car for a reasonable expense.

Traction control is different and if you read about the tuning that goes into that at the OE level, you'll realize an individual simply doesn't have the hardware, software and expertise to make it happen very well, but how do you police it? For what we do, it's probably not too hard to implement. Heck, most aftermarket ECUs seem to have some level of traction control functionality.

Jason Swindle
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Re: ABS and Stability control "free" in Prepared (25235)

Post by Jason Swindle » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:58 pm

Having worked with the Bosch M4 competition ABS in the RR world, it is head and shoulders better than any factory implementation, even the VERY good BMW versions. There's abs and the there's fully programmable / customizable RACE ABS.... I'm guessing the same is true with the race ECU implementations of traction control vs what you have available in megasquirt for example.

Is this not just another knee jerk reaction to a very good driver in a well prepared car winning and the resulting panic? I would HATE to have the price tag of winning in Prepared moved up by 10-20K so one can add really good ABS, and traction control, essentially taking the driver out of the equation....

I'd rather have it go the other way.... No ABS or traction control allowed.....

Jason

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Mike Simanyi
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Re: ABS and Stability control "free" in Prepared (25235)

Post by Mike Simanyi » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:15 pm

Please write in, but know that NO traction and ABS is basically the current rule, unless you already have them on the car, from the factory. This causes the problem. I don't think we can reasonably say "you have to delete these things that are already on your car" and conversely (some of) the members without it don't want that deficit to bite them.

I still like my earlier suggestion and will probably write in unless I see some good counterpoints to it. It's not enormously expensive and it allows the Have Nots to join the Haves in a reasonable manner. For those people who don't want to spend *any* money for such systems, they're welcome to remain as they are, but they need to recognize that Prepared has to catch up with the times at some point. That catch-up, however, doesn't need to come with a 5-figure price tag.

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Marshall Grice
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Re: ABS and Stability control "free" in Prepared (25235)

Post by Marshall Grice » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:44 pm

Mike is on point. The bosch programmable abs has come down in price. There are now many different ways to hack in a factory abs to almost any car for quite cheap (hint: the race abs is just a factory porsche 911 abs unit with different software). The performance delta between fully programmable and a factory abs unit is small when you consider how short autox braking zones are. I don’t think the sky is falling.

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Marshall Grice
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Re: ABS and Stability control "free" in Prepared (25235)

Post by Marshall Grice » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:54 pm

I figure this might be enlightening.
https://specializedgerman.com/2006-pors ... gKMevD_BwE

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Mike Simanyi
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Re: ABS and Stability control "free" in Prepared (25235)

Post by Mike Simanyi » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:02 pm

Marshall, is the Porsche ABS computer a standalone unit? Or is it built into the pump?

That may be the Droid I want for the M3...

Jason Swindle
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Re: ABS and Stability control "free" in Prepared (25235)

Post by Jason Swindle » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:50 am

Marshall Grice wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:44 pm
Mike is on point. The bosch programmable abs has come down in price. There are now many different ways to hack in a factory abs to almost any car for quite cheap (hint: the race abs is just a factory porsche 911 abs unit with different software). The performance delta between fully programmable and a factory abs unit is small when you consider how short autox braking zones are. I don’t think the sky is falling.
Hey Marshall,

So what software is to be used with the 911 ABS module? Any links to that part of the solution? Saying that you can just use the 911 abs un modified can't be the answer.

Thanks,
Jason

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Marshall Grice
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Re: ABS and Stability control "free" in Prepared (25235)

Post by Marshall Grice » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:59 pm

I believe the software is what costs 7500 bucks. I have no direct experience with reflashing an abs module but it can be done.

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Re: ABS and Stability control "free" in Prepared (25235)

Post by solo2r » Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:54 pm

How about having another Class as in CP1 [older cars] and CP2 [newer cars w abs/trac control,etc] ?

Jason Swindle
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Re: ABS and Stability control "free" in Prepared (25235)

Post by Jason Swindle » Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:18 pm

Marshall Grice wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:59 pm
I believe the software is what costs 7500 bucks. I have no direct experience with reflashing an abs module but it can be done.
So back to a big price tag.... I've used the software with the race ABS module. It works very well considering you can alter just about any parameter.... So yeah, back to you're going to need to have that in order to be competitive....

Jason

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Anthony P.
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Re: ABS and Stability control "free" in Prepared (25235)

Post by Anthony P. » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:21 pm

https://www.miataturbo.net/suspension-b ... de-100731/

This guy put a e46 abs in his miata. I'm guessing he spent less than the car...

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Mike Simanyi
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Re: ABS and Stability control "free" in Prepared (25235)

Post by Mike Simanyi » Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:11 am

Jason Swindle wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:18 pm
Marshall Grice wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:59 pm
I believe the software is what costs 7500 bucks. I have no direct experience with reflashing an abs module but it can be done.
So back to a big price tag.... I've used the software with the race ABS module. It works very well considering you can alter just about any parameter.... So yeah, back to you're going to need to have that in order to be competitive....

Jason
Reference Marshall's point above: there is unlikely to be any meaningful gain from crazy expensive software in this particular discipline. On track I can see it being more effective, but here it sounds like it's in the noise.

I'll grant you that "noise" is relative. If I'm driving against Anthony and already at a talent deficit, I certainly don't want a hardware deficit as well...

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