Extreme street, should it replace CST?

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Anthony P.
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Extreme street, should it replace CST?

Post by Anthony P. » Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:35 pm

The title says it all, looking at 2021. Rules attached.

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Xtreme_Street_(XS)_Rules_-_2020.pdf
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Mike Simanyi
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Re: Extreme street, should it replace CST?

Post by Mike Simanyi » Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:49 pm

I have no dog in this fight, but in my opinion: no. CST already covers everything that's in XS.

If there's an index for XS, I'd suggest keeping whichever is "harder" - XS or our basis for CST. We don't need people gaming the system on soft indexes to mess up the year-long competition for drivers of the year.

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Re: Extreme street, should it replace CST?

Post by Jacob Abrams » Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:57 pm

I'm not sure. I think the questions that need to be asked are really geared towards people not currently running CST (either in another class or new members).

How would it affect the populations of the other classes? It doesn't do much good if practically everyone decides to join it. It also doesn't help if it further confuses new members with a class with a bunch of rules when CST has essentially none.

Personally I don't care much either way. I'm not sure what the concerns about making the index too soft are about though given there are some specific rules mentioned to avoid that. Namely the weight class split and banning of super cars and ultralight cars (ie, Caterham 620s) that could easily take advantage of the index. With those two stipulations in place I don't see why the index shouldn't be somewhere between STU and SM without anyone gaming the system.

The one upside to running XS vs CST is the new rules preventing someone like me from building a crazy Catherham 620 or 911 turbo cup car and dominating CST. Those were both ideas of mine for builds to start on this year, but I'm gonna have to rethink my plans, ha.

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Re: Extreme street, should it replace CST?

Post by Ed T » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:06 pm

Jacob Abrams wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:57 pm
The one upside to running XS vs CST is the new rules preventing someone like me from building a crazy Catherham 620 or 911 turbo cup car and dominating CST. Those were both ideas of mine for builds to start on this year, but I'm gonna have to rethink my plans, ha.
I kinda wanna see that! lol
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Marshall Grice
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Re: Extreme street, should it replace CST?

Post by Marshall Grice » Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:37 am

XSA and XSB now have pax factors. Perhaps this will impact any decisions.

http://solotime.info/pax/rtp2020.html

XS-A 0.844
XS-B 0.864

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Re: Extreme street, should it replace CST?

Post by Shane Donahue » Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:47 am

I would encourage it, if only for rules parity with other SCCA clubs in the area should someone want to jump around.
It's index will also get regular attention from RR if you're into that sort of mathing.

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Re: Extreme street, should it replace CST?

Post by Anthony P. » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:21 am

A survey will be sent out to CST competitors first.

It seems like it comes down to two questions.
1) Do you want XA XB to replace CST?
2) Do you want them combined on index or separate?

Also, does anyone know of any cars prepared in excess of those rules that currently competes in CST?

Supps changes happen in Dec, so we would be looking at 2021, which would probably include more accurate pax factors after a year of running.

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Re: Extreme street, should it replace CST?

Post by Ed T » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:40 am

Anthony P. wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:21 am
A survey will be sent out to CST competitors first.

It seems like it comes down to two questions.
1) Do you want XA XB to replace CST?
2) Do you want them combined on index or separate?

Also, does anyone know of any cars prepared in excess of those rules that currently competes in CST?

Supps changes happen in Dec, so we would be looking at 2021, which would probably include more accurate pax factors after a year of running.
I wanted to raise something we should think about.

CST is currently our catch-all class, especially for novice or beginners. SCCA classing is already complicated enough. If CST is going to be split into XA and XB, we should think about which one, if any, will be our catch-all for hard to class semi-tuned cars.
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Re: Extreme street, should it replace CST?

Post by Reed Gibson » Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:28 pm

Ed T wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:40 am
Anthony P. wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:21 am
A survey will be sent out to CST competitors first.

It seems like it comes down to two questions.
1) Do you want XA XB to replace CST?
2) Do you want them combined on index or separate?

Also, does anyone know of any cars prepared in excess of those rules that currently competes in CST?

Supps changes happen in Dec, so we would be looking at 2021, which would probably include more accurate pax factors after a year of running.
I wanted to raise something we should think about.

CST is currently our catch-all class, especially for novice or beginners. SCCA classing is already complicated enough. If CST is going to be split into XA and XB, we should think about which one, if any, will be our catch-all for hard to class semi-tuned cars.
Why split them, let's just offer the XS indexed PAX class. I think we'll be hard pressed to find any serious competitors (notice I'm not mentioning first time autocrossers) whose car won't fall into either A or B. CST would basically be replaced with XS for the majority of cars that have been noticeably modified past existing class rules. The only difference between CST and XS is our local allowance for <200 TW tires which, last I checked, non of the front runners are using...

Going forward, I honestly think we should recommend "softer" interpretations of the rules for new comers. By this I mean, let the stock-ish Miata with two sway bars run ES even though they are only allowed one. Give them a taste of a level playing field for their car and let them decide if they want to fully conform to the rules. It's really only going to be a problem if they start winning with an over-prepped car anyways.

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Re: Extreme street, should it replace CST?

Post by Sebastian Rios » Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:47 pm

Plenty of new to SCCA folks understood the 3 CAM classes. It's obvious that CAM is a hit. I think this is supposed to be CAM for imports, it too can be a hit.

I think we should try to have as little variance from the National standard as possible without alienating people. In my opinion, the biggest problem this poses for current CST competitors is having to get new class letters.

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Re: Extreme street, should it replace CST?

Post by Robert Joe » Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:49 pm

I like these XS classes. I am setting up my ND for track events this year so it will no longer qualify under STR. I could run XS-B at National Events.

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Anthony P.
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Re: Extreme street, should it replace CST?

Post by Anthony P. » Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:36 pm

Thank you everyone so far, for the feedback both in person and here. Please encourage your fellow CST people to comment for or against. Typically people just post to complain, but I haven't heard of any opposition as of yet.

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Re: Extreme street, should it replace CST?

Post by Jacob Abrams » Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:34 pm

I'm definitely leaning towards using the XS classes and running one indexed class of XS-A and XS-B together.

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Re: Extreme street, should it replace CST?

Post by Reed Gibson » Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:54 am

Jacob Abrams wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:34 pm
I'm definitely leaning towards using the XS classes and running one indexed class of XS-A and XS-B together.
How much does your car weigh Jacob? I think your setup is literally the perfect example of why XS class exists. A sweet ride, not built exclusively for solo, but for the owners enjoyment at a HIGH performance level.

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Re: Extreme street, should it replace CST?

Post by Jacob Abrams » Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:18 pm

Reed Gibson wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:54 am
Jacob Abrams wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:34 pm
I'm definitely leaning towards using the XS classes and running one indexed class of XS-A and XS-B together.
How much does your car weigh Jacob? I think your setup is literally the perfect example of why XS class exists. A sweet ride, not built exclusively for solo, but for the owners enjoyment at a HIGH performance level.
Right on 3400lbs with fuel, but without driver. So plenty of room above the 2750lb minimum weight for RWD. Yep, that was always the idea, to build it for multiple uses but still be competitive.

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Re: Extreme street, should it replace CST?

Post by Doug Teulie » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:40 pm

The one question I have is weight, how do we measure it locally? Do we need scales for some events or just not do it like local SM? Using the allowances provided it is possible to build an incredible power to weigh ratio car. Some cars can reduce weigh from stock. An S2000 (stock 2813 lbs with heavy wheels but can be reduced to 2680) would sit on the fence between the A and B split. If the S2000 added 30 to 50 lbs to make 2750 it would take the lower index. Some cars would need to add weigh just to make the minimum 2000 lbs fwd or 2150 lbs rwd weight. How do we measure weight at local events?
Last edited by Doug Teulie on Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Doug T
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Anthony P.
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Re: Extreme street, should it replace CST?

Post by Anthony P. » Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:43 pm

Doug Teulie wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:40 pm
The one question I have is weight, how do we measure it locally? Do we need scales for some events or just not do it like local SM? Using the allowances provided it is possible to build an incredible power to weigh ratio car. Some cars can reduce weigh from stock. An S2000 (stock 2813 lbs with heavy wheels) would sit on the fence between the A and B split. If the S2000 added 30 to 50 lbs to make 2750 it would take the lower index. Some cars would need to add weigh just to make the minimum 2000 lbs fwd or 2150 lbs rwd weight. How do we measure weight at local events?
We have scales, I believe if someone protests, but it would probably be like local SM. I suppose we could weight the top 3 cars randomly twice a year to help.

No "race" interiors, but yes they could be quite light.

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Re: Extreme street, should it replace CST?

Post by Doug Teulie » Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:19 pm

Cool. It would be nice to use the scales a few times a year just for fun. Sport seats can save 20 to 60 lbs. When a car is on the fence fuel level is factor. It would be nice to have the opportunity for the car builder to weigh in just to know.

Thanks for the answer.
Doug T
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