Quality of E85 in So Cal

[Bill Schenker]

FYI. Just got off the phone with Pearson fuels, the guys that bring us E85 here in the Southland. I asked if their formulation changes through the year, like pump gas does; they said "no", so that's cool! They said it stays @ 85% ethanol, even when the price of it goes up.

You're welcome, Marshall (in return for giving me the good advice to bring my own E85 to Lincoln, as the quality of it there can vary)!

[Marshall Grice]

FYI. Just got off the phone with Pearson fuels, the guys that bring us E85 here in the Southland. I asked if their formulation changes through the year, like pump gas does; they said "no", so that's cool! They said it stays @ 85% ethanol, even when the price of it goes up.

You're welcome, Marshall (in return for giving me the good advice to bring my own E85 to Lincoln, as the quality of it there can vary)!

yeah well turns out when it's cold outside the 85% ethanol doesn't start worth a crap. it took a while to get the car out of the trailer on sunday.

[Bill Schenker]

FYI. Just got off the phone with Pearson fuels, the guys that bring us E85 here in the Southland. I asked if their formulation changes through the year, like pump gas does; they said "no", so that's cool! They said it stays @ 85% ethanol, even when the price of it goes up.

You're welcome, Marshall (in return for giving me the good advice to bring my own E85 to Lincoln, as the quality of it there can vary)!

yeah well turns out when it's cold outside the 85% ethanol doesn't start worth a crap. it took a while to get the car out of the trailer on sunday.

Yes, noticed that; a spritz of starter fluid on those occasions?

[Mako Koiwai]

OK ... what's up with E85, vis a vis performance ?

[Jayson Woodruff]

OK ... what's up with E85, vis a vis performance ?

Equivilent to a very high octane. Considered a 'Pump' fuel, so SCCA legal for the lower classes.

Jay W

[Marshall Grice]

OK ... what's up with E85, vis a vis performance ?

pro:~105 octane, higher energy chemical mixture than gas, evaporative cooling.

con:requires ~30% more fuel volume then gas, poor cold starting, hard to find

[Jayson Woodruff]

hard to find

Locally. In Denver you can easily accidentally put it in your rental car that wasn't made for it. It was 20cents cheaper than Ezero.

BTW, standard fuel system's are typically not going to handle E85 long term. It'll eventually melt away a standard gas system. Many modern cars are coming E85 compatible though (Ford's Flex Fuel).

Jay W

[Marshall Grice]

BTW, standard fuel system's are typically not going to handle E85 long term. It'll eventually melt away a standard gas system. Many modern cars are coming E85 compatible though (Ford's Flex Fuel).

Jay W

ethanol will dissolve natural rubber and is corrosive to bare aluminum. cars have been equipped to handle ethanol for some time now (i don't know the exact dates) with the government requirement to be able to run up to 10% ethanol in regular pump fuel as an oxygenate.

[Giovanni Jaramillo]

hard to find

Locally. In Denver you can easily accidentally put it in your rental car that wasn't made for it. It was 20cents cheaper than Ezero.

As for locally...there's literally one 1/4 a mile away from me in Brentwood Conserv Fuel

BTW, standard fuel system's are typically not going to handle E85 long term. It'll eventually melt away a standard gas system. Many modern cars are coming E85 compatible though (Ford's Flex Fuel).

Jay's right as my BMW engine wouldn't last long using it consistenly from reading articles on it (assuming it's the E46 chassis)

[Jayson Woodruff]

ethanol will dissolve natural rubber and is corrosive to bare aluminum. cars have been equipped to handle ethanol for some time now (i don't know the exact dates) with the government requirement to be able to run up to 10% ethanol in regular pump fuel as an oxygenate.

E10 is very different than E85. I think all manufactures have okay'd E10 in their cars (10% ethanol) and we're force fed it in the winter time. But E85 (85% ethanol) is not cleared in most cars. Those that they are make a big marketing deal about it (again Ford Flex Fuel).

Here's a list
http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/flexfuelvehicles.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's kind of funny from our perspective because pick-ups tend to be the first to be E85 compatible, when you expect it to be the hippy cars. But E85 is way more common in the middle of the country where the rednecks live.

Jay W

[Marshall Grice]

ethanol will dissolve natural rubber and is corrosive to bare aluminum. cars have been equipped to handle ethanol for some time now (i don't know the exact dates) with the government requirement to be able to run up to 10% ethanol in regular pump fuel as an oxygenate.

E10 is very different than E85. I think all manufactures have okay'd E10 in their cars (10% ethanol) and we're force fed it in the winter time. But E85 (85% ethanol) is not cleared in most cars. Those that they are make a big marketing deal about it (again Ford Flex Fuel).

Here's a list
http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/flexfuelvehicles.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's kind of funny from our perspective because pick-ups tend to be the first to be E85 compatible, when you expect it to be the hippy cars. But E85 is way more common in the middle of the country where the rednecks live.

Jay W

well you can't just put e85 in a normal car. the fueling needs to be altered to inject the correct amount, lest it run excessively lean. it has nothing to do with the fuel system 'melting away'.

flex fuel cars have an ethanol content sensor in the fuel system and automatically adjust the fueling based on what fuel mixture is in tank allowing them to switch between e85 and normal gas on the fly. E10 requires no such fueling adjustments.

[Marshall Grice]

As for locally...there's literally one 1/4 a mile away from me in Brentwood Conserv Fuel

there is also a new station in pomona and one in perris that sells E85. http://www.pearsonfuels.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

so that makes 3 gas stations in the greater LA area (out of thousands) that sell e85...i think that counts as "hard to find".

[George Schilling]

As for locally...there's literally one 1/4 a mile away from me in Brentwood Conserv Fuel

there is also a new station in pomona and one in perris that sells E85. http://www.pearsonfuels.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

so that makes 3 gas stations in the greater LA area (out of thousands) that sell e85...i think that counts as "hard to find".

If you found them Marshall, how hard could it be?

[Craig Naylor]

To bad that web sites info is less than complete.

The 5.7L in the Tundra & Sequoia are not E85 compliant in all 50 states. Those states using CA emissions rules: obviously CA, and a few N.E. states are not E85 compatible.

I'd hope someone looked in their owners manual before the followed some websites info (since we all know anything posted on the web is: true and researched thoroughly)

[Q V]

well you can't just put e85 in a normal car. the fueling needs to be altered to inject the correct amount, lest it run excessively lean. it has nothing to do with the fuel system 'melting away'.

So, for a "normal" street car, if I were to tune the car for e85 (i.e. just making sure my AFR stay where I want them throughout the rev/load range) & replace my rubber fuel lines to something that can handle ethanol I should be a-okay to run it, maybe?

How corrosive exactly is it - i.e. sitting in my fuel tank between events?

THANKS! I'm too lazy to do extensive searching & I trust your answers way more than the info I find on the regular interwebs,

[Marshall Grice]

So, for a "normal" street car, if I were to tune the car for e85 (i.e. just making sure my AFR stay where I want them throughout the rev/load range) & replace my rubber fuel lines to something that can handle ethanol I should be a-okay to run it, maybe?

How corrosive exactly is it - i.e. sitting in my fuel tank between events?

THANKS! I'm too lazy to do extensive searching & I trust your answers way more than the info I find on the regular interwebs,

yeah if you retune your car it'll run fine on e85, but it will likely require larger than stock injectors.

is your gas tank made out of aluminum? Most tanks i know of are made of either steel or plastic, neither of which have a problem with ethanol. The bigger problem with the fuel sitting in your tank between events is the fuel will absorb water out of the air and dilute itself.

also, most 'rubber' fuel lines these days are not made of natural rubber so they don't have issues. you can always soak anything you're curious about in e85 for a while and see if it starts to break down.

[Mako Koiwai]

I was trying out Toluene as an octane booster years ago. When I replaced the fuel pump, the heavy duty rubber fuel line that attached to the pump cut like butter, when I pulled it off with a pair of pliers! So a synthetic rubber line would have held up better?

[Aaron Goldsmith]

I was trying out Toluene as an octane booster years ago. When I replaced the fuel pump, the heavy duty rubber fuel line that attached to the pump cut like butter, when I pulled it off with a pair of pliers! So a synthetic rubber line would have held up better?

You should always read the spec sheet on anything you're putting in you car to see what it's reactive with. Toluene and Ethonal aren't the same, one I have in my kitchen.

[Bill Martin]

higher energy chemical mixture than gas

In what way? Gasoline is significantly higher than alcohol in BTUs/lb.

[Mako Koiwai]

76 100 octane pump fuel is simply 91 octane with added 114 octane Toluene ... according to a Turbo magazine octane booster test from a number of years ago. They had a chemical analysis done. I believe they said the 91 octane gasoline was basically 87 with added Toluene. So it would seem we're always exposing our cars innards to Toluene. I was just adding a bit more to 91 to occasionally make around 94.

Anyone have more data on this ...


(The early F1 Turbo cars ran on Toluene with a neutral "filler" to create their desired octane level.)

[Steve Lepper]

76 100 octane pump fuel is simply 91 octane with added 114 octane Toluene ... according to a Turbo magazine octane booster test from a number of years ago. They had a chemical analysis done. I believe they said the 91 octane gasoline was basically 87 with added Toluene. So it would seem we're always exposing our cars innards to Toluene. I was just adding a bit more to 91 to occasionally make around 94.

Anyone have more data on this ...


(The early F1 Turbo cars ran on Toluene with a neutral "filler" to create their desired octane level.)

These days, it's more likely Xylene than Toluene. Xylene is relatively safer/easier to handle, and from what I understand, currently cheaper.

[Bob Pl]

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[Aaron Goldsmith]

76 100 octane pump fuel is simply 91 octane with added 114 octane Toluene ... according to a Turbo magazine octane booster test from a number of years ago. They had a chemical analysis done. I believe they said the 91 octane gasoline was basically 87 with added Toluene. So it would seem we're always exposing our cars innards to Toluene. I was just adding a bit more to 91 to occasionally make around 94.

Anyone have more data on this ...


(The early F1 Turbo cars ran on Toluene with a neutral "filler" to create their desired octane level.)

it's not that simple, other items are added to fuel as detergents and to aid in material compatibility. It sounds like standard forum regurgitation. I don't find keeping xylene and toluene around worth the brain damage and extreme birth defects they cause. Ethanol is certainly safer than all of them.

Either way, if you're going to run non-standard fuels look at what they will react with. Run Teflon lined hoses if you wanna be safe.

[Mako Koiwai]

I'll see if I can find that TURBO magazine article ... it was not web regurge

[Steve Lepper]

76 100 octane pump fuel is simply 91 octane with added 114 octane Toluene ... according to a Turbo magazine octane booster test from a number of years ago. They had a chemical analysis done. I believe they said the 91 octane gasoline was basically 87 with added Toluene. So it would seem we're always exposing our cars innards to Toluene. I was just adding a bit more to 91 to occasionally make around 94.

Anyone have more data on this ...


(The early F1 Turbo cars ran on Toluene with a neutral "filler" to create their desired octane level.)

it's not that simple, other items are added to fuel as detergents and to aid in material compatibility. It sounds like standard forum regurgitation. I don't find keeping xylene and toluene around worth the brain damage and extreme birth defects they cause. Ethanol is certainly safer than all of them.

Either way, if you're going to run non-standard fuels look at what they will react with. Run Teflon lined hoses if you wanna be safe.

Brain damage, indeed.

It bears repeating that, if you're going to be messing around with mixing fuels in any way, please take proper safety precautions! This means gloves, proper ventilation, breathing mask, etc. as required. This stuff can cause serious short- and long-term health problems.

Regarding F1 fuels: back in the late 80's, ELF made a fuel for the Renault team that could explode when it came in contact with air! They blew up the fuel storage bunker at (IIRC) Paul Ricard when someone left a fuel drum cap off for a little too long...