For the poll you are given two votes. Use one to rate the fun of the event and use the other to vote for how we should handle points for this event.
Ok, I want to start a discussion about the future NOTLD events. This includes any feedback and suggestions, thoughts from this year. Please be honest and give your feedback on this event. We can't make it better unless we know what you think is wrong. (and please keep the insults to a minimum otherwise I will seek my moderator boyfriend on your posts)
A couple points that I think should be discussed:
1. Saftey
----a. Tired course workers
----b. Tired drivers
----c. The drive home
2. Novices
3. 3 vs. 4 runs
4. General enjoyment of the event
5. Points event vs. exhibition event
6. Avalibility of El Toro, thus avoiding the heat of summer in Fontana
7. Any other points that you think are important to this event.
Please don't missunderstand me, this years NOTLD event went very well. The course was fun. It seemed to run fairly smoothly. I just want to see what everyone's opinions are.
Last edited by Christine Grice on Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
~Christine Grice
2006 Mitsubishi Evolution, Berry Family Racing/Hoosier/ChaseCam
1. Saftey
----a. Tired course workers
----b. Tired drivers
----c. The drive home People know this event is going to happen and should prepare for it.
2. Novices Let them run
3. 3 vs. 4 runs 3
4. General enjoyment of the event
5. Points event vs. exhibition event Points
6. Avalibility of El Toro, thus avoiding the heat of summer in Fontana 100 degrees at Fontana or 90 at El Toro, you'll still going to get cooked from the heat off the pavement
7. Any other points that you think are important to this event. Preregistration only
No dark shirts
No extra lights on cars
Run only non street legal cars first in the first group before running any car with headlights
Christine -
I think you have brought up valid points and as this years "ring leader", I'll start off the comments.
The single biggest challenge in putting on this event is registration/run/work groups. When 1st posted, we "guesstimated" 150-160 drivers. Monday before the event, there were 99 members registered +6 novices registered. Hence the 4 run groups/4 runs. By reg end Thursday, there were 140 or so members and 18+ novices. Back to 160. To change run/work groups on Friday would have been a disaster. We tried tto change run/work groups on the fly a few years ago and ended up running the last group at sunrise.
It was suggested that this be a pre-reg only event and closing pre-reg 4 or 5 days prior. Then do the run/work groups. That would prevent a glut of Pax drivers in the 1st group so they can go home early.
It could run as we just did, with a ton of drivers in 1 or 2 groups and split the work groups (which actually seemed to be much safer for course workers) And I would imagine there are a bunch of other good ideas to make the event run smoother.
Safety-
I think the entire club(s) are truly concerned about worker safety, more than any other club I have had the opportunity to run with. The entrants, usually, realize that running at night has definite challenges and are either "up" for working or have had some rest prior to working the course. And I cannot imagine a Worker Chief DNW someone that was just too tired to work course. There is always another job that needs doing.
Drivers-
are pretty much the same.
Driving home -
This is one area that strikes very close to home. Last years event I did drive home far to tired and the last 4 or 5 miles of the 605 was more NOTLD than the event. I asked and was told we could use lot 2 to crash for a few hours in the motorhome.
When I talked to Secutiry at the Speedway, I was told that they would "accomodate" members sleeping in lot 2 if they were to tired to drive. It seems to be a big issue with them, kinda like letting a drunk drive home. The challenge as I see it is - who is responsible to tell members they are to tired to drive. Members are usually pretty good about policing themselves, but as with drunks, they don't always listen to themselves.
We could rent a big tent with cots for those that need a few winks.
We could also start earlier with the 1st run group, but add'l entrys could negate that.
Novices -
In past years the novice drivers have had a real negative impact ont NOTLD: getting lost, not paying attention when working course, generally slowing down the event to a snails pace at times. I believe the manatory Instructor course walk and Safety/Etiquette instructions before being allowed to drive worked well enough that we might think about incorporating it into every event. Leonard took a group 20-30 strong on course with Sebastian directly after and I don't think the novice drivers were anymore off course than the experienced drivers (I DNF'd the first run!). And this event is fun!! It can/will lead to a whole new batch of Solo2'ers that can do nothing but enhance the entire club, safely.
3-4 runs-
The 4 runs was a bonus this year when there were 105 entrants. Between George, Mako and myself, it was decided to leave them in even with 200 drivers. "More bang for your Buck". And the projected end of the event was less than 45 minutes from actual. The 3-4 runs should be left to the Event Master and the Chiefs to decide. It's part of their responsibility - draw the crowd, make it fun, and if they deem it so, get a little more in return for $30.00 and being there all night.
General fun -
This event is just different. That's what makes it fun. I think we had drivers there this year because of Craig that had never been to NOTLD before. Most that I spoke to will be back because it's different and fun.
Point vs exhibition -
I see no reason to make it a practice event or exhibition. With the exception of the 1st run group, the playing field is as level as Nationals and rain. It all counts.
El Toro -
Part of the "tradition" of NOTLD is the Fontucky/Florida simmering summer heat. That's why NOTLD started. Again, it's part and parcel of the Event. Moving to El Toro or another venue would remove some of the "mystique" of the event.
Other Points-
If I keep a hat on, no one can see it!
It's been said 100 times before, 2 heads are better than 1 and 50 are better than 2. With a little forethought, and keeping egos out of the mix, this thread just might make EVERY event better.
1. Saftey
----a. Tired course workers
----b. Tired drivers
----c. The drive home
Karen and I were stupid to drive back to Glendale after breakfast at Denny's ... after sticking around to help round up the lighting units. Didn't get home until 5:30 am. Danerously tired even with Red Bull and coffee. Next year we'll get a room if we're going to be there until the end.
2. Novices
I don't believe we had any issues with the Novices? I was wondering how that huge mob of Newbs could hear Leonard, especially during the first part of the Novice walk with the music coming out of our speakers. Bull horn next time?
3. 3 vs. 4 runs
I like 4 runs but perhaps not a good idea when we have 200 drivers at night.
4. General enjoyment of the event
Seems like most people were having fun. We enjoyed ourselves! We didn't realize there would be food available. If there is going to be food available next year, we should let people know in advance.
5. Points event vs. exhibition event
Points, but not team ones.
6. Avalibility of El Toro, thus avoiding the heat of summer in Fontana
Might be harder to light a spread out El Toro night event. The round'ish Fontana course designs work better lighting wise.
7. Any other points that you think are important to this event.
We might want to have one set of lights behind the motorhome ... lighting the start area and general paddock/grid area. Light would be behind the starters. But even though there was a light in front of us at the start, and almost no light on the start elements ... it worked out OK. I think it was good that we went out and adjusted the lights after the first run group. It's almost impossible to set the lights properly during daylight. We need to factor in that lighting adjustment time ... and have a folding high stepping stool and a six foot long stick handy to make it easier to move the individual lighting heads.
Tom Phillips wrote:
Point vs exhibition -
I see no reason to make it a practice event or exhibition. With the exception of the 1st run group, the playing field is as level as Nationals and rain. It all counts.
Except there is no such thing as the Overall and team championships @ Nationals.
1. Saftey
----a. Tired course workers
----b. Tired drivers
----c. The drive home
I agree with Glenn here - everyone knows it's a night event and should prepare accordingly. As a morning person, I was a bit concerned about falling asleep on the way home from NOTLD, so I made a concerted effort to rest as much during the day Saturday to conserve my energy for later knowing full well that I was doing the Novice Course walk at the beginning of the evening and probably wouldn't be running until after 1 a.m. - which was also past my bedtime. Unfortunately, not everyone has the luxury of just resting all day. I think Will Kalman's idea of having lighted red flags/beacons for the course workers would benefit greatly - I know I had a difficult time seeing ANY course workers out there. Also, I'd suggest some reflective vests for the workers, but they would have to look VERY different from the reflectors on the cones.
2. Novices
Boy, that was a lot of novices in one course walk! Glad I had that many at a previous practice as experience beforehand. I tried to keep my talk short, direct, and to-the-point while lacing it with some humor to keep everyone's attention and projecting my voice as loudly as I could through the entire walk. I encouraged questions and answered any as best I could. I liked the form we had for the Novices to sign and I was glad we split the safety talk and the novice course walk - last time I gave both I don't think I was able to cover everything. Another thing I did was at the start of each of the first three run groups, I walked around to see if any novices needed/wanted instructors and worked on arranging ones for them. So, anyone who didn't feel secure before going out on their first runs was taken care of - except for the last group, which I ran in myself. I also followed up with many of these novices on their final non-instructed runs to see how they were doing and got lots of positive feedback there. If I had to change one thing about how I handled it - follow up with the novices who initially didn't want an instructor on the first run to see if they wanted one on their second run after trying the course. I know I had discouraged having novices attend before the event, but I was glad to have the opportunity to introduce some new people to the sport in what is a unique event in our schedule.
3. 3 vs. 4 runs
I would have been fine with three to keep the event shorter, but four was a lot of fun.
4. General enjoyment of the event
I had a blast - but I worked through most of the run groups so that kept me up and active for most of the event and was easily able to stay mostly fresh by the time I ran in the fourth group. I would probably have felt differently if I had just sat around and waited for my work/run groups like most everyone else.
5. Points event vs. exhibition event
Points event. It's a champ event but with a different set of challenges from the norm.
6. Avalibility of El Toro, thus avoiding the heat of summer in Fontana
It's still hot down there too, right? And NOTLD just wouldn't be the same there IMO.
7. Any other points that you think are important to this event.
I was VERY glad we had food on-site. Made my life SO much easier!
~Leonard Cachola
#82 CS, CSCC Solo Novice Coordinator
1...Flags you can see in the dark. Maybe reflective like the cones.
2...I think we should have 4 runs in regular events and 3 in this one.
3...If you get rid of points, I dont think anyone will show up.
4...start an hour earlier.
Kathy Teulie wrote:Will Kalman had a good idea. He suggested using some kind of lights for the red flag. The red flags were hard to see.
The type used by ground crews at airports would be perfect.
CASOC Autocross Club, 1984 Van Diemen RF-84, 1600cc Kent, Hewland Mk9, Centerline 2 pc. wheels, Hoosier R25B, SuperTrapp, Zimmer Alloclassic titanium left hip w/Metasul LDH chromium-cobalt lg dia head
Christine Berry wrote:
6. Avalibility of El Toro, thus avoiding the heat of summer in Fontana
I think Christine's intention here was day time at El Toro vs night time at Fontana. And if not, the gaurds lock up El Toro at night, I doubt that's negotiable.
Christine Berry wrote:
6. Avalibility of El Toro, thus avoiding the heat of summer in Fontana
I think Christine's intention here was day time at El Toro vs night time at Fontana. And if not, the gaurds lock up El Toro at night, I doubt that's negotiable.
Jay W
Yes, my intention was to suggest a day time event at El Toro instead of a night event at Fontana. We are not trying to avoid heat, we are trying to avoid 105 degree heat that happens in Fontana. Whne this event was started the only places we had to run were Noton and Devore, not the coolest places in the world.
~Christine Grice
2006 Mitsubishi Evolution, Berry Family Racing/Hoosier/ChaseCam
I'd like to add that Tom Phillips' lighting of the grid area from his R.V. was fantastic, and Bill's grid technique was great too (not using cones, just liner).
That grid technique saves a lot of setup and tear down time, and eliminates the problem with people tripping over cones. That's one of those "improvements" we can put into play for other events, when we don't use a National-style grid.
Christine Berry wrote:For the poll you are given two votes. Use one to rate the fun of the event and use the other to vote for how we should handle points for this event.
Ok, I want to start a discussion about the future NOTLD events. This includes any feedback and suggestions, thoughts from this year. Please be honest and give your feedback on this event. We can't make it better unless we know what you think is wrong. (and please keep the insults to a minimum otherwise I will seek my moderator boyfriend on your posts)
A couple points that I think should be discussed:
1. Saftey
----a. Tired course workers
Everyone seemed ok where I was stationed, but I could not see car number/class - I assume radio was better positioned & could see them. I just called a cone or dnf to my radio & hoped he had the car #.
----b. Tired drivers
Once you are running the course, I think adrenaline trumps sleepiness
----c. The drive home
Less traffic
2. Novices
Saw no problems, I'm sure the mand. course walk was the reason, keep it.
3. 3 vs. 4 runs
4 was definately better
4. General enjoyment of the event
Good.
5. Points event vs. exhibition event
My opinion is this should not be points. Night vision declines with age. Unfair advantage to younger drivers. But as another poster said, this will cause a significant drop off in attendance by itself. Maybe that would be ok.
6. Avalibility of El Toro, thus avoiding the heat of summer in Fontana
El Toro is superior in just about every way I could imagine.
7. Any other points that you think are important to this event.
Kudos to all those who put it on! I do think the lighting was better in 2007, but I can't specifically say why. Course was fine. I just did not have as much an issue seeing the course in 07 vs this year.
One safety comment, I have seen plenty of close calls in daytime events, so if anyone thinks that a driver going full out is going to SEE a dark red cloth flag being waved on a dark intermittantly lit course, well please, think again, driver is not going to see it. We show absolutely have bright red lights (with fast on/off capability) to wave instead of red cloth flags. Like Kurt posted. This is a no brainer.
Please don't missunderstand me, this years NOTLD event went very well. It had one of the highest entry counts of the year. The course was fun. It seemed to run fairly smoothly. I just want to see what everyone's opinions are.
1. Saftey
----a. Tired course workers
----b. Tired drivers
----c. The drive home BUCK UP
2. Novices FUN SEEING NEW FACES AND CARS LIKE THE GTR AND NEW M3 ..etc luckly no one out of control.. the simple short course layout helped
3. 3 vs. 4 runs ON A 30 SEC COURSE HAS TO BE 4
4. General enjoyment of the event
GREAT TIME AS ALWAYS.. ENJOYED THE NEW CHALLENGE OF PLAYING 'NIGHT DRIVER' VIDEO GAMES FOR REAL
5. Points event vs. exhibition event POINT OR IF NOT SOMETHING NEW
6. Avalibility of El Toro, thus avoiding the heat of summer in Fontana THIS EVENT DOES NOT HAVE TO BUT MORE EVENTS SHOULD BE IN EL TORO... MORE EVENTS AT EL TORO AND CHANGE THINGS UP A BIT CREATIVELY UTILIZING THE SPACE WHILE ITS STILL AROUND-- 'PROPS TO GUY A. FOR THAT AMAZING DIVISIONAL LAYOUT
7. Any other points that you think are important to this event.
OPEN TECH AND REG EARLIER- MAYBE HAVE ONE MORE PERSON IN THE MOTOR HOME IN THE BEGINNING TO HELP WITH THE MADNESS- OTHERWISE THE OTHER THINGS MENTIONED LIKE USING THE FLASHLIGHT TUBES----call me crazy but i had the day dream of crashing in our racing lot and waking up to breakfast on the FSAE grizzle, coffee up a little, and having runs in the late morning and afternoon
7. Any other points that you think are important to this event.
OPEN TECH AND REG EARLIER- MAYBE HAVE ONE MORE PERSON IN THE MOTOR HOME IN THE BEGINNING TO HELP WITH THE MADNESS- OTHERWISE THE OTHER THINGS MENTIONED LIKE USING THE FLASHLIGHT TUBES ----call me crazy but i had the day dream of crashing in our racing lot and waking up to breakfast on the FSAE grizzle, coffee up a little, and having runs in the late morning and afternoon
I've gotta say, it would be fun to get a hotel room, then run the next day as a practice or something. Maybe bass-acwards, but it'd give people a reason not to drive home. Plus, it's be really interesting to run the same course in the daylight to see the difference in times.
==============
Oversteer is better than understeer because you don't see the tree you're hitting.
Tom's course WAS fun and very flowing. Our newest Course Designer did a very nice job. He and his crew arrived something like FIVE hours before the start so that they would have plenty of time to fine tune the course. They went way above and beyond to make sure we had a good course.
Someone mentioned that the course lighting was better in '07. I remember it being very spotty creating those alternating contrasting pools of light and dark. This year we tried to even out the lighting. They also didn't just arbitrarily place the reflector collars but instead only placed them on apex's, element entries and slalom cones ... so that they had more meaning.
I like the night event because it is different. We usually get a large turnout too. I would be happy with only three runs and a longer lap but I understand why it is a good idea to run a circle layout with the overhead lights. The layout was great this year, thanks Tom.
I understand why the night event is not as popular for some (like Kathy for one) but others enjoy it. If we start making every different event a "non points" event we are going to have to run fewer points events during the year or run more total events to include the extra events. If we need 12 events for points and if we do not use the night event we will need to run 13 events to make 12 points events. Fewer points events reduces the number of through-outs so attendance becomes even more critical. If we start adding more local events it cuts into more National schedules, San Diego events, Divisional, Pro Solo and car work / development time. Running more local events during the year is more expensive because of the need for more sets of tires. I have been running on junk tires over the past two years to try to save some money. R compound tires have gotten expensive.
If the night event was a non points event I know Kathy would not drive it at all. I would have to look at my tire inventory and then decide if I would go. I don't like running pointless events. I think running in the dark needs more structure than a practice that could get out of control. At the very least it needs to be a race with trophies or prize money.
Doug T PSCC CSCC #99 /SCNAX SD #151 LT Points 23,600. TEAM DHE/FAST 1976 KARMANN 8V FSP MK1 SILVER SCIROCCO TEAM DHE/FAST 1980 KARMANN 8V FSP MK1 RED SCIROCCO
Need VW parts?--->http://www.parts4vws.com Need Wax?--> Mother's
Doug Teulie wrote: If we start making every different event a "non points" event we are going to have to run fewer points events during the year or run more total events to include the extra events.
How many "different" events do we have outside of NOTLD? None, as far as I can tell.
Doug Teulie wrote: If we start making every different event a "non points" event we are going to have to run fewer points events during the year or run more total events to include the extra events.
How many "different" events do we have outside of NOTLD? None, as far as I can tell.
Forgot about the Divisional huh? And when we ran Buttonwillow some felt that it should have been non points.
Doug Teulie wrote: If we start making every different event a "non points" event we are going to have to run fewer points events during the year or run more total events to include the extra events.
How many "different" events do we have outside of NOTLD? None, as far as I can tell.
Doug Teulie wrote: If we start making every different event a "non points" event we are going to have to run fewer points events during the year or run more total events to include the extra events.
How many "different" events do we have outside of NOTLD? None, as far as I can tell.
we used to have the scnax cup.
The SCNAX Cup was NEVER a championship, simply an adjunct to a two-day practice.
Glenn, the Divisional was a local points event and was always going to be a local points event for CalClub; it is a standard, daylight, 3 runs, 2-second cone penalty Solo event, thus it is not "different." We haven't done Cone Fest in five years, and at the time the argument was always "this is what we have drops for."
In the here and now, going forward we have one event that has a major difference and that's NOTLD.
Bob Beamesderfer wrote:
How many "different" events do we have outside of NOTLD? None, as far as I can tell.
we used to have the scnax cup.
The SCNAX Cup was NEVER a championship, simply an adjunct to a two-day practice.
Glenn, the Divisional was a local points event and was always going to be a local points event for CalClub; it is a standard, daylight, 3 runs, 2-second cone penalty Solo event, thus it is not "different." We haven't done Cone Fest in five years, and at the time the argument was always "this is what we have drops for."
In the here and now, going forward we have one event that has a major difference and that's NOTLD.
There was a lot of talk about the Divisional being a two day, one day and no points day but you knew that since you were on the committee and the Divisional is run much more formal which is different from just another Regional but you knew that too.
(and please keep the insults to a minimum otherwise I will seek my moderator boyfriend on your posts)
and the Divisional is run much more formal which is different from just another Regional but you knew that too.