Sept Fastrack posted

[Marshall Grice]

my outside take on the 'superduper stock' is that they're trying to protect SS and AS by not putting the crazy cars in SS or shifting cars down from SS to AS. It does seem odd though that they're doing that at the expense of disbanding CS. I would have figured putting the 'life time savings-mobiles' on the stock exclusion list would have been an easy decision.

Although i guess the zr-1 and GTR aren't exactly mega dollar cars. I'm just not sure what the $80K class is going to come up with in terms of number of competitors.

[Sebastian Rios]

Well, seeing how the raw times are so similar, why not combine CS and BS.

And while we're at it, combine STS & STS2.

:ibrightdea:

I think Hollis said it best when he said he would immediately transfer his stuff to a CRX and go even faster if the two were combined. The CRX is at least 100lbs lighter than the EF civic. But still it might be a possibility in the future, but why mess with a brand new class?

[Steve Coe]

If you are asking about the "sunset rule", I would ask if you have ever seen the factory documentation from a stock legal TVR.

In know way should you take my tone here as any sign of how I feel about these two items.


TVR documentation? Sure Bill Sanford has them printed when ever he needs it. ;) Really! He just calls them and asks for what he needs.

[Marshall Grice]

Well, seeing how the raw times are so similar, why not combine CS and BS.

And while we're at it, combine STS & STS2.

:ibrightdea:

I think Hollis said it best when he said he would immediately transfer his stuff to a CRX and go even faster if the two were combined. The CRX is at least 100lbs lighter than the EF civic. But still it might be a possibility in the future, but why mess with a brand new class?

then why does he(andy) run a miata in sts2? Everyone already knows that you could put the same effort into a 240 and go faster then an EF civic...?

[Jason Uyeda]

my outside take on the 'superduper stock' is that they're trying to protect SS and AS by not putting the crazy cars in SS or shifting cars down from SS to AS. It does seem odd though that they're doing that at the expense of disbanding CS. I would have figured putting the 'life time savings-mobiles' on the stock exclusion list would have been an easy decision.

Although i guess the zr-1 and GTR aren't exactly mega dollar cars. I'm just not sure what the $80K class is going to come up with in terms of number of competitors.

SuperDuper Stock could end up being dominated by 50k Lotuses... Although the Gallardo/R8/GT2/GTR are all also contenders imho.

TVR documentation? Sure Bill Sanford has them printed when ever he needs it. ;) Really! He just calls them and asks for what he needs.

I thought they just wrote it on a napkin and faxed it over???

[Bob Beamesderfer]

I thought they just wrote it on a napkin and faxed it over???

They're Brits, so moist towlette. Avoids warranty claims.

Still, I don't see why BS and CS need to be rearranged to make an SDS class -- could be X Stock, eh?

[Doug Teulie]

Sunset rule for stock class sports car club cars:

So what the SAC is saying is, Cars twenty five years and older can run at local events but the SAC can act with prejudice (a preformed opinion, usually an unfavorable one, based on insufficient knowledge, irrational feelings, or inaccurate stereotypes) to prevent all cars built in the 80’s then the 90’s from running at SCCA stock class events for contingencies. So C4 Corvettes, E30 M3 BMWs, MR2s, CRX CIVCCs and Miatas will be removed year by year at Tours and Nationals until they are all gone. All traditional Sports cars like MGs are not welcome at all at Tours in stock class. That is a real great sports car club! It sounds like VW got upset with SCCA when they found out the majority of the VW contingencies were paid out to VWs that were older than twenty five years so VW can’t promote the victories. Does the rule book include a process to make members look for a another SAC committee ?

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

E30 M3 BMWs
CRX CIVCCs
All traditional Sports cars like MGs are not welcome at all at Tours in stock class.
That is a real great sports car club! It sounds like VW got upset with SCCA when they found out the majority of the VW contingencies were paid out to VWs that were older than twenty five years so VW can’t promote the victories. Does the rule book include a process to make members look for a another SAC committee ?

Do you see a lot of those turning up now in stock class at tours?
VW has a PRO spec series, why would they need to worry about a solo win?
Great club... Look at the club racing rules for stock, 10 years and your car is out (btw that is new, use to be 5 yrs).

Wow, yet another thinks there is a waiting list of people who want to sit on a board. Typically filling any AC requires begging, lying or getting some unsuspecting person drunk and tricking them into joining. The good news for you is there is no waiting at the head of any line, send in your resume and join the AC of your choosing.

[Doug Teulie]

Do you see a lot of those turning up now in stock class at tours?
Great club... Look at the club racing rules for stock, 10 years and your car is out (btw that is new, use to be 5 yrs).
Wow, yet another thinks there is a waiting list of people who want to sit on a board. Typically filling any AC requires begging, lying or getting some unsuspecting person drunk and tricking them into joining. The good news for you is there is no waiting at the head of any line, send in your resume and join the AC of your choosing.

Solo is grass roots racing!
Fast track is put out for the members to make comments and ask questions. If the SAC does not want to get hit with tomatoes they need to….Sorry you took the job but the tomatoes will still fly with proposals like this.

Note Jason deleted the MR2 from my first post on this topic.

What is the real issue that is forcing this? Is it contingencies? Why not just move all the older cars to SS if you want to kill them?
It won’t be that long before E36 BMWs ES MR2s and Miatas are on death row. So if the older cars don’t show up to any events like you say why does the SAC want to prevent older out classed cars from filling stock classes at the Pro and Tour? Newer cars can get even more contingency money if they win in a larger class. It looks like the SAC is shooting the club in the right foot at the local grass roots level to me. Younger drivers can afford older cars like Miatas, MR2s and CRXs but if this passes they have no future driving at Tour or Nationals in stock class car they purchased mowing lawns. It will be great to watch every model year retire one model year at a time. If you have the last C4 (one of the top AS cars at this point) you can run the longest and watch all your friend's cars die . The SAC has a tough job for low pay but you can say no I don't like getting hit with tomatoes. What is driving this move? SAC please sell us on why this is a great idea for Solo.

[Kurt Rahn]

Without any context as an outsider, I have to agree with Doug. What's the harm in letting an "outdated" car run against newer cars. One thing I've noticed in my quest for the ultimate AutoX car is that cars made 15-20 years ago had less power, but also needed less power because they weigh 1000-1500 (or more) pounds less than cars today. It's a lot easier to make a car more powerful in Solo, but basically illegal (unless you're at the top levels) to make a car weigh less. I understand today's car makers feeling the pressure from normal consumers to put sound deadening, etc, in cars, which make them more boatational, but why is the mother ship rewarding that and moving away from the essence of a sports car: less weight is better? If a 30 yr old "clunker" can beat a spankin' new spiffmobile, why distort competition? Let 'em run!

[Robert Puertas]

This is about eliminating three stock classes, DS, ES and FS.
ES is obvious, with the old Miatas & MR2's being put to pasture, or as the SEB no doubt sees it, Street Touring.
The less obvious one, is the ITR. Make it go away, along with the older muscle cars, and its suddenly alot easier to split what's left from DS and FS into GS and BS.
The bonus cars in this are the C4 vette and the RX7 TT. This makes the creation of the SS / AS tweener class a moot point.

Frankly, if you made a full complement of ST classes - to give these cars a place to play where they can maintain their budget mindset - I think it could be ok.

[Mari Clements]

ES is obvious, with the old Miatas & MR2's being put to pasture, or as the SEB no doubt sees it, Street Touring.

Did I miss something and MR2s are now going to be legal for ST? They never have been before...

[Robert Puertas]

ES is obvious, with the old Miatas & MR2's being put to pasture, or as the SEB no doubt sees it, Street Touring.

Did I miss something and MR2s are now going to be legal for ST? They never have been before...

It can't be too far away...
The existing ST class situation will become a full fledged group of A-F classes just like the other prep levels at some point.

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

Solo is grass roots racing!
Fast track is put out for the members to make comments and ask questions. If the SAC does not want to get hit with tomatoes they need to….Sorry you took the job but the tomatoes will still fly with proposals like this.

Note Jason deleted the MR2 from my first post on this topic.

What is the real issue that is forcing this? Is it contingencies? Why not just move all the older cars to SS if you want to kill them?
It won’t be that long before E36 BMWs ES MR2s and Miatas are on death row. So if the older cars don’t show up to any events like you say why does the SAC want to prevent older out classed cars from filling stock classes at the Pro and Tour? Newer cars can get even more contingency money if they win in a larger class. It looks like the SAC is shooting the club in the right foot at the local grass roots level to me. Younger drivers can afford older cars like Miatas, MR2s and CRXs but if this passes they have no future driving at Tour or Nationals in stock class car they purchased mowing lawns. It will be great to watch every model year retire one model year at a time. If you have the last C4 (one of the top AS cars at this point) you can run the longest and watch all your friend's cars die . The SAC has a tough job for low pay but you can say no I don't like getting hit with tomatoes. What is driving this move? SAC please sell us on why this is a great idea for Solo.

Yes, I deleted the MR2 because you do see the last generation actually showing up. However the other cars on your list appear to be MIA. Now that you have updated the E30 BMW to an E36, I will ask you the same question as before, how many do you see in stock now?

I am sorry, by your comment asking about how to recall the SAC I thought you wanted to actually get involved. I guess I misunderstood, because you just want to "provide feedback" but not be involved beyond that. I sure hope you write a letter, because no post on a forum will do you any good.

I have no idea where you get these ideas on contingency plans? How many manufacturers do you see with plans? Do you think they are lined up out the door just begging to give money on solo? I guess we should let them and all the extra SAC members in.

btw I am not on the SAC, and can take anything you want to toss... Just be prepared to get it back when you display that you don't know what you are talking about.

[Mike Simanyi]

The interesting twist that I don't see mentioned anywhere is Stock's affect on ST / SP.

If your car isn't Stock legal, it can't run in ST. I'm sure the SEB can change that but it certainly wasn't mentioned in the latest Fastrack.

Likewise SP fundamentally picks up cars from Stock, with some exceptions listed in Appendix A. Again, there's probably a plan for this but I don't think it's been published... yet.

I'll add that the change is proposed well in advance, for adoption in 2010. There's a big window for member comment. I'm sure there's time to work out the details so we don't have the SM "Whaddya mean my seat has a minimum weight?!?" effect.

Mike

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

ES is obvious, with the old Miatas & MR2's being put to pasture, or as the SEB no doubt sees it, Street Touring.

Did I miss something and MR2s are now going to be legal for ST? They never have been before...

I am with Robert... I don't see how the LSD rule can not change in STS2. Try to find a good viscous for a Miata. STS2 either needs to be relaxed to let the later Miata/MR2 in, or another class will have to come along. I just cant see much room for growth under the current STS2 rule set.

I don't see a parallel class for every stock class, some cars would just suck on ST tires, but we could use more. The numbers don't lie, ST is the one area of growth in the club.

[Doug Teulie]

Jason,
As you know many of us including me respect your insight and knowledge of the issues, impacts and proposed changes to our club's rules. I can't think of anyone more qualified to answer our questions and concerns.

Thanks.

I note-->
"the SAC believes their eligibility for Divisionals, Tours, and the National Championships should be limited"...(no longer).. "compete in contingency events "

The interesting twist that I don't see mentioned anywhere is Stock's affect on ST / SP.
If your car isn't Stock legal, it can't run in ST. I'm sure the SEB can change that but it certainly wasn't mentioned in the latest Fastrack.
Likewise SP fundamentally picks up cars from Stock, with some exceptions listed in Appendix A. Again, there's probably a plan for this but I don't think it's been published... yet.
I'll add that the change is proposed well in advance, for adoption in 2010. There's a big window for member comment. I'm sure there's time to work out the details so we don't have the SM "Whaddya mean my seat has a minimum weight?!?" effect.
Mike

It does look like they are going to keep the old cars listed on the "stock" lines (only for local events) but not allow them to run at Divisional events or Tour / NAs. So if old cars are still listed..?... I don't know what is up with big stock shuffle and if it will have any positive impact on ST or SP? If we all understood the issues we would not need to ask questions and start thinking about the consequences that we will have to live with.