STX solstice discussion split from Tim's for sale thread...

[Tim Albin]

Seems that Jason Isley has decided not to reply. I'm pretty sure Jason chose not to rebut because the facts speak for themselves. One question that was never answered by the SEB is WHY all the other years of Miata's weren't allowed to buy springs for their cars? IF the SEB had allowed that then the gap between the MS-R and the MX5 would be much closer. I have always wanted stiffer springs for our 99 NB. I actually bought a second set hoping to find better springs but the ones I bought were within a pound of the ones we already had. Jason, can you help me with why all the other years of NC's and NB's were not allowed to buy the springs too? Seems like Mazda would like to make spring sales because every AX Miata needs more spring. Of course there were other less important parts in the MS-R package that should have be made available to ALL Miata competitors as well.

In this sport I see anyone who puts on a helmet is pretty good already. In the picture in the first part of the For Sale thread Sharon Holley was driving the Solstice and it looked like the car was going to roll over. She propped herself up on a pillow and drove the car great the first time she was ever in the Solstice.

Another pet peeve I have. In the CSCC all the RT classes use the street tire factor of .980 . Nationally that factor is .975. Now .05 might not seem like a big deal to most, but it does mean a lot to competitors who run in RT classes and know that fact. My competitive spirit always drives me to do as well as I possibly can. CSCC is loaded with many top notch drivers and I want every thousandth of a second that I feel I deserve. That .05 translates to a tenth and a half which many times will realize a finish of 1 or 2 or more places higher in the PAX standings.

[Craig Naylor]

One question that was never answered by the SEB is WHY all the other years of Miata's weren't allowed to buy springs for their cars?

Because EVERY car has an achilles heal. The Miata needs this, the MR2 that, the Impresa 2.5 this, the WRX that, the Mini this the Civic that; etc, etc, etc.
I find it funny you ask this question.... as the SEB has answered this question numerous times before. While we currently have A-H stock classes, there currently is no "I" class, though potentially the most popular...
the only way to solve every cars inherent problems is to have 100k+ classes, could you just imagine the derivatives of the "I" class that would be necessary.... some cars would need to add another door just to fit all of the extra digits?

Pax street tire index. CSCC created the .98 index 10+ years ago? There is no "National" RT index. An index for the ProSolo bump class was created... last year? But it's no different than the RTP index we use being different than the ProSolo index Prosolo has used for many years. Cars preform differently off the line on the drag starts than they do on a normal roll in on a typical AX course, or so they say so different indexed have existed.

[Tim Albin]

You missed my point Craig. You might want of go back a few posts and read the message exchange with Jason Isley. I have been waiting for Jason to answer. More than likely he can't hence the no reply. I was pointing out the decision the SEB made in early 07 to allow the 2007 MX 5 Base to have the MS-R package installed. That decision has changed C/S ever since. The bottom line is that every N/C with the exception of the 2007 wasn't allowed to install the MS-R package. My contention is that the SEB's decision ELIMINATED every Miata built from 2006 until 2013. Our Solstice is stock with the ZOK package added but the N/C can NOT add the MS-R package like I added the ZOK package. I really feel for all the competitors that bought N/C's only to find out the SEB made a bad decision and NEVER corrected it. To this day you won't see anything but 2007 Miata's with the MS-R packages entered in C/S at the 2013 Nationals. Now there is all the concern about what went wrong with stock. Of course there are MANY reasons but one could start right there for the now convoluted C/S class.

Craig, you are not correct when you say the SEB has answered the question about *WHY is the 2007 MX-5 the only N/C Miata allowed to install the MS-R package* numerous times. To my knowledge the SEB has never addressed that decision. Maybe you can shed some light on that question Craig. My contention is that the SEB could have easily corrected the initial decision and allowed the same MS-R package (stiffer springs, bars, chassis bracing) to every Miata that has been built for the last 7 years. So what I am talking about is far from what you call the "I" class.

I have been asking questions and not getting any answers ever since the current SEB has chosen to move our stock Solstice (on the 3rd revision) to B/S with the MS-R and ZOK Solstice. We want to remove the ZOK package and stay in C/S with the MX 5 as per original proposal. The Solstice has new owners and there is no way they belong in B/s. The SEB's decision to move the stock Solstice to B/S was based ENTIRELY on Ryan Buetzer. Essentially moving one car and one driver in America. The new owners will be 10 seconds slower than Ryan and be at the bottom of the PAX list. NOT a good way to start in SCCA Solo for them and I am disappointed in the SEB for them.

You make my point Craig when you say the road tire index was .980 10+ years ago. The road tire index has been bandied about for the last year or so and the PAX guy Rick Ruth has determined that .975 is the right number. Of course some road tire guys want a lower index and the Hoosier guys want the .98... I'm going with Rick Ruth's assessment because .05 does make a difference.

[Craig Naylor]

Actually I did get your point, again I refer to my original comment, your looking for a I class with a mod to fix a problem for a specific car... The fact you don't like the answer does not mean others have not answered your question. Again...the answer is: in stock there is no update / backdate.

So addressed more specifically to the MS-r package...
Quoted from Edmunds:
"After working out the MS-R package over the winter, Mazda presented the details of the MS-R package to the SCCA and it was approved for competition in late winter of 2007. (**Note,my addition... there referring to road racing, and responding to the Neon ACR trunk kit option)

Two cars were soon built and delivered and two races were soon won. Then, in mid-July, the SCCA changed its mind and the MS-R was declared ineligible, effective immediately. Mazda and the two racer customers were perplexed, to say the least. Then the Pontiac Solstice Z0K — of which, only slightly more than a dozen examples had been built — swept the SSB championship again in 2007, largely uncontested.

The reason for the 2007 Mazda MX-5 Miata MS-R's existence instantly evaporated. As a result, it no longer appears on the order sheet for 2008."

So why was the trunk kit allowed in Solo? Can't answer that... but why not other years... because it was officially only a 2007 option from Mazda. So technically the SEB didn't eliminate the option, SCCA road racing did indirectly, and in turn Mazda did directly. At that point Solo stock rules for update / backdate eliminates it on any year other than 2007 as that is the only year Mazda offered it.

[Justin Tsang]

I remember Nate Whipple was running fast with a solstice in 2011... Ryan drove it the fastest, but doesn't mean the car is slow?

[Craig Naylor]

You make my point Craig when you say the road tire index was .980 10+ years ago. The road tire index has been bandied about for the last year or so and the PAX guy Rick Ruth has determined that .975 is the right number. Of course some road tire guys want a lower index and the Hoosier guys want the .98... I'm going with Rick Ruth's assessment because .05 does make a difference.

Where does Rick Ruth publish a street tire index? I don't see any mention of one below (full quote from the RTP post below). Again CSCC has had one for many years, ProSolo just implemented one... just as ProSolo has a different Index all together than the RTP. THERE IS NO OFFICIAL STREET TIRE INDEX published by the SCCA, or Rick Ruth. If you beleive CSCC's is wrong, feel free to contact your Club rep, and have them make a proposal at the next meeting to the rest of the club reps.

On that note though... I would estimate that for every bit of improvements DOT race rubber has made over the last few years, street tires have matched, and vice versa. That said it will all play out next year anyway when DOT goes away for Stock, and there is no more RT / Hist & Nov. SK.

This Index was developed by Rick Ruth and reflects study of results from well over 500 nationwide Solo events including, the Tire Rack® Solo National Championships, National Tour, Alabama Region, Atlanta Region, Chicago Region, California Sports Car Club, Central Florida Region, Equipe Rapide (Florida & Texas), Great Lakes Solo Series, Hawaii Region, Houston Region, Midwest Divisional Series, Milwaukee Region, Minnesota Autosports Club, New England Region, Northwest Region, Northern New Jersey Region, Oregon Region, Philadelphia Region, Rocky Mountain Series, San Francisco Region, San Diego Region, South Jersey Region, St. Louis Region, Tri-State Sports Car Council, Texas Region, Washington DC Region, Wisconsin Autocrossers Inc., and many, many others

SS 0.859 SSP 0.871 XP 0.901 AM 1.000
AS 0.847 ASP 0.866 BP 0.878 BM 0.962
BS 0.845 BSP 0.858 CP 0.862 CM 0.910
CS 0.834 CSP 0.861 DP 0.874 DM 0.918
DS 0.826 DSP 0.855 EP 0.875 EM 0.928
ES 0.828 ESP 0.849 FP 0.877 FM 0.917
FS 0.830 FSP 0.838 GP 0.850 FSAE 0.989
GS 0.816
HS 0.804 STF 0.795 SM 0.867 KM 0.955
STC 0.824 SMF 0.852 JA 0.879
STS 0.829 SSM 0.881 JB 0.842
STR 0.839 JC 0.743
STX 0.827
STU 0.846

[Steve Lepper]

Now, why again are they moving the Solstice to B/S? }:)

[Ed Holley]

Now, why again are they moving the Solstice to B/S? }:)

Ya, you got THAT right. Maybe the driver just wasn't up to the level of the very best PAX-establishing drivers. Oh that's right, he IS one of those drivers.

[Tim Albin]

I have no ax to grind with you Craig. My point was to allow ALL the MX 5's the same allowance. IF you care to know about the .975 index please go the SCCA Forums and look at Rick Ruth's posts in the event results. Your explanation on the MS-R is right out of the SEB playbook. Old news for us.

Thanks for all your work getting the Solstice ready for Lincoln Steve. The car was the best it has ever been but it took a combination of things for the 370Z to beat Ryan by .1. The East course was a no brainer Horsepower course. 3 stop, point and shoot sections where the 370Z used all of it's 332 V 6 Horsepower. That course was the very worse scenario for us with our poor brakes and lack of horsepower. I always thought National courses were designed to emphasize driver skill where Ryan shines. The tougher the course the better for Ryan. Ryan did his normal great job behind the wheel but was still .8 behind the first day. I thought we were in a good position because Ryan was only .8 behind and the West course was a more challenging Nationals style course. Going into the third run Ryan had picked up 1.7 to lead the the 370Z by .9. The guy in the 370Z took a flyer on his last run and ran a second faster than his second run to win by .1.

There is a new dawn for C/S. 50K to buy and prepare a new 350 HP 370Z is now the car to beat in C/S with the SEB's decision to move it's competition to B/S. There probably won't be many who can afford the price of admission so it looks like the SEB has their twins in all kinds of classes.

Ryan did win 2 Hoosiers at the San Diego Tour but the new Hoosier redemption policy caught Ryan out and Hoosier said SORRY no tires because you took too long to apply for the tires. I knew we were done with C/S after Nats so I didn't buy $1500 worth of new tires for Lincoln. I thought Ryan would win with the tires we already had. So he ran the tires we used in San Diego. MY BAD. 3 heat cycles there and 3 more cycles at Nats with a test and tune and 2 days of competition runs. Unfortunately the front tires just gave up a touch when Ryan asked the car for another .2 on his last run.

Ryan being the great level headed person that he is took everything in stride. Of course he did question the East course design but ultimately he put the onus of not winning on himself. Certainly wasn't Ryan's fault. It was all the CIRCUMSTANCES. I am still vacillating between letting it all go like Ryan and fighting to the inevitable end. I can say for sure that I hope to do the best driving I possibly can to finish out this season in RTR and our Solstice era .

2013 has been the most fun year I have ever had in autocross. The RTR guys are really fun to run against and Diana and I will never forget the wonderful day we had for our 50Th. wedding anniversary event...Going to do my best to let the SEB stuff go...