CTV work day 10-9-10

[Eric Clements]

Rick & I worked on the CTV last weekend. More needs done.

Will/Marshal/Jayson, or someone else with real EE knowledge would be really helpful. The displays seem to have some real gremlins...

Anyone have a source for RV door frame material?

7994 Rosebud st, Rancho Cucamonga 91701

[Michael Palero]

What kind of finish does the CTV have?

and serious question, where will the work day be happening?

[Jayson Woodruff]

I have some ideas, but they're really just an alternative to scrapping. Will's got good knowledge on them right now. But if the segments aren't getting the right signal, then there's not much else to do.

My personal Chronomix has similar problems with the most significant digit.

BTW, I ordered a 'production set' of printed circuit boards for my little display project to.

Jay W

Will/Marshal/Jayson, or someone else with real EE knowledge would be really helpful. The displays seem to have some real gremlins...

[Will Kalman]

I'll see about making it there and checking out the displays. I've torn them down to the individual segment coils and there's not much there to go wrong other than a hard hit popping the segment axles out or someone using oil to lube them and the oil has gotten too viscous (I use dry graphite).

Of course, if the circuit board is toast, there's no guarantee that you'd even be able to find a replacement. I found a place to service the Pro Solo shot clock keypad and Howard sent it to them and they promptly stopped responding to emails or the phone.

There is a possibility of designing a new board to drive the mechanical displays....seems like I did something like that recently ;)

BTW, the charging circuits on these Chronomix boards roast batteries. There's no point in even having a battery in it as it will be ruined well before its time.

[Jayson Woodruff]

Eric has done several 'axel reassembles', so it's got to be something electrical. Coils burning or circuit not putting out I guess.

And yesssss on the charging circuit. Runs a 12V battery up to 22V if I remember right. I think the battery is kind of necessary for power draw serges. Maybe a big capacitor instead.

I tried to contact the repair people that the old chronomix company forwarded you too. No response.

I'll work faster.

Jay W

I'll see about making it there and checking out the displays. I've torn them down to the individual segment coils and there's not much there to go wrong other than a hard hit popping the segment axles out or someone using oil to lube them and the oil has gotten too viscous (I use dry graphite).

Of course, if the circuit board is toast, there's no guarantee that you'd even be able to find a replacement. I found a place to service the Pro Solo shot clock keypad and Howard sent it to them and they promptly stopped responding to emails or the phone.

There is a possibility of designing a new board to drive the mechanical displays....seems like I did something like that recently ;)

BTW, the charging circuits on these Chronomix boards roast batteries. There's no point in even having a battery in it as it will be ruined well before its time.

[Eric Clements]

What kind of finish does the CTV have?
and serious question, where will the work day be happening?

The finish is very poor! Fiberglass gel coat with vinyl graphics. Graphics need to be removed, don't know if gelcoat is salvageable.
Address in first post.

[Eric Clements]

Sticky digits I can handle. It's the odd ball stuff like plugging in a second display which kills a previously working first display. Or plugging them in to 12v makes them stop working, which it didn't used to...

We're also going to try to nail down the plan for the equipment storage area/bays.

[Rick Brown]

Background on the display issues:
Our problem with the displays is not with the display itself, it is connecting them to a timer. They are consistently inconsistent. First, in an effort to simplify things, we added XLR connectors to the displays in parallel to the connectors they come with. Then we would only need one type of cable to connect everything, displays and timing lights, plus the XLR is a much better connector. We ran the internal wiring with the exact same wire as the external cables for the displays. The internal wiring for the CTV has two separate sets which would allow 2 completely separate timers, lights, displays to operate. On the roof, the connector panel has a switch which joins the two displays together to operate off a single signal. This duplicates the external system which has a "Y" cable to connect two displays to a single cable. We also have 12vdc connectors on the roof panel to provide power/charging to the displays instead of using the 110vac chargers.

The cable that comes with a display has a 9 pin connector to the clock and a plastic 4 pin connector to the display. Only two wires are used, data and ground, with no connection to physical ground. The XLR connectors have 3 pins plus being a metal connector, a pin for case ground. We originally had the neutral and case ground shorted as that was the way most of the timer cables were setup. We recently discovered this provided the sensing to the timer box that something is connected to the box. So the cable should not be grounded, the connector on the timing light itself should have this short so that it tells us when it has a light connected, not just a cable. So we removed all the shorting in the cables and the connectors on the CTV and the displays.

Over the last few events, we have been unable to get the internal wiring to work so have been running an external wire to the displays with the "Y" cable and connected to the 12vdc power on the roof. This seems to have worked pretty well. After trouble shooting some internal wiring issues and fixing them, we can get the internal wiring to work and operate both displays, but if we connect the 12vdc, suddenly only one display will work, or sometimes neither. We often have to reset the timer, the display or both to get anything to work on internal wiring. Eric and I played with this most of last Sunday and are just stumped as to what's happening.

[Mako Koiwai]

I should get Reijo to describe the completely wireless system they use. I believe he said they can run narrow'ish runway courses in one direction, ie. Finish at the far end from the Start.

[Jayson Woodruff]

We originally had the neutral and case ground shorted as that was the way most of the timer cables were setup. We recently discovered this provided the sensing to the timer box that something is connected to the box. So the cable should not be grounded, the connector on the timing light itself should have this short so that it tells us when it has a light connected, not just a cable. So we removed all the shorting in the cables and the connectors on the CTV and the displays.

I've always considered that function useless. Other's did too I assume, which is why they'd ground the wire to the shells.

Over the last few events, we have been unable to get the internal wiring to work so have been running an external wire to the displays with the "Y" cable and connected to the 12vdc power on the roof. This seems to have worked pretty well. After trouble shooting some internal wiring issues and fixing them, we can get the internal wiring to work and operate both displays, but if we connect the 12vdc, suddenly only one display will work, or sometimes neither. We often have to reset the timer, the display or both to get anything to work on internal wiring. Eric and I played with this most of last Sunday and are just stumped as to what's happening.

Where is the 12V converter? If it's in the timing cabin, then running a long cable out to the displays, maybe there's too much voltage drop. If this is the case, if you put a meter on the 12V leads by the displays, it would still show 12V+ because there's no load, thus hard to discover. Could be similar with the serial cable length and splitting, but shouldn't be affected by the addition of the 12Volts.

I've got a computer program (others do too), that can read the serial signal outputted from the timer box. Maybe check that the signal is still getting there properly when the display acts up. That would at least limit it to a power problem, or a display problem.

I should get Reijo to describe the completely wireless system they use. I believe he said they can run narrow'ish runway courses in one direction, ie. Finish at the far end from the Start.

The timing lights work just fine. We're talking displays.

There are some simple looking wireless serial thingys that you just wort on to the serial in/out ports. I just don't know how easy they'd be for our application.

Jay W

[Mako Koiwai]

Completely wireless system including the displays ... but I believe I recall now that it's a one off that the fellow might commercialize when he retires.

[Rick Brown]

Where is the 12V converter? If it's in the timing cabin, then running a long cable out to the displays, maybe there's too much voltage drop. If this is the case, if you put a meter on the 12V leads by the displays, it would still show 12V+ because there's no load, thus hard to discover. Could be similar with the serial cable length and splitting, but shouldn't be affected by the addition of the 12Volts.

I've got a computer program (others do too), that can read the serial signal outputted from the timer box. Maybe check that the signal is still getting there properly when the display acts up. That would at least limit it to a power problem, or a display problem.

Jay W

The 12v on the roof is straight from the vehicle batteries/solar panel, not the inverter. We tried it also with the generator running (which charges the batteries through an inverter) and with the CTV engine running. No difference. With nothing running, just over 12v at the connector, with the engine or generator running, 13v to 14v.

Where do I get that program? I have an old oscilloscope, just not sure I remember how to use it, lol.

[Will Kalman]

I'll bring my 'scope and other tools (laptop with serial port, connectors and appropriate program for testing) to the work day, assuming I can make it (which is about 95% certain) and we'll nail this down.

BTW, you should measure the *AC* voltage at the display end of the power leads with the display powered up. It could be that there is excessive noise riding on the DC. There should be little AC voltage there. The 'scope will show that, for sure.

[Eric Clements]

BTW, you should measure the *AC* voltage at the display end of the power leads with the display powered up. It could be that there is excessive noise riding on the DC. There should be little AC voltage there. The 'scope will show that, for sure.

AC on a DC line!? That's why I dragged your name into this thread

[Murray Peterson]

Completely wireless system including the displays ... but I believe I recall now that it's a one off that the fellow might commercialize when he retires.

It is a one-off at the moment, but I do have circuit boards ready to be printed, parts lists, etc. I designed it because of my frustration with existing systems -- no names need to be mentioned

I am willing to give (sell?) the design to interested parties -- if you have someone that is handy with electronics, then they could build this system themselves. It is entirely wireless, with even the display being good for a two day event without recharging (in Canadian winters). Right now, the only issue I have is that the IR sensors (Cutler-Hammer) for the start and finish seem to go out of alignment within 30 minutes after first setup. Once re-aligned, they are good for the rest of day without a problem. The wireless display uses narrow angle green LEDs, but is incredibly bright. Direct sunlight is no impediment to visibility whatsoever with no shades or coloured glass required.

Right now, my plans for this winter are:
1. Try 30 degree LEDs instead of 15 degree -- not as bright, but probably acceptable
2. Wireless transmitters to be capable of using Race America sensors (with alignment indicators) as well as built-in sensors
3. Create a simple plug-in "you are aligned" LED display for Race America sensors (I _hate_ having to wait for someone in the timing trailer to tell me about alignment)
4. External antenna for longer range (6 miles advertised, probably 1/2 mile in reality)

The wireless systems all talk to Axware software without any issues -- plug in directly with USB cable to your laptop or netbook.

Oh -- FCC approved on all radio systems, so even using them at airports is fine.

If you are interested, contact me at murray.spam1trap(at)shaw.ca

Right now, I don't have a commercial manufacturing set up -- this would have to be a DIY sort of person that wants to know how to do this.

[Rick Brown]

Right now, the only issue I have is that the IR sensors (Cutler-Hammer) for the start and finish seem to go out of alignment within 30 minutes after first setup. Once re-aligned, they are good for the rest of day without a problem.

We use these sensors:
http://info.bannersalesforce.com/xpedio ... /03560.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Are they compatible? The work very well, easy to align (flashing light on the receiver indicates signal strength) and inexpensive. We have 3 complete setups (we have had two practice courses plus a kids kart course) and a lot of spares.

[Murray Peterson]

Right now, the only issue I have is that the IR sensors (Cutler-Hammer) for the start and finish seem to go out of alignment within 30 minutes after first setup. Once re-aligned, they are good for the rest of day without a problem.

We use these sensors:
http://info.bannersalesforce.com/xpedio ... /03560.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Are they compatible? The work very well, easy to align (flashing light on the receiver indicates signal strength) and inexpensive. We have 3 complete setups (we have had two practice courses plus a kids kart course) and a lot of spares.

Definitely compatible! How do you mount them to be adjustable (and stable in windy conditions)?

[Jayson Woodruff]

Mini Tripods.

Definitely compatible! How do you mount them to be adjustable (and stable in windy conditions)?

[Rick Brown]

Definitely compatible! How do you mount them to be adjustable (and stable in windy conditions)?

Small aluminum box: http://www.frys.com/product/1927773?sit ... IN_RSLT_PG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Cheap plastic tripod: http://www.minitripods.com/Assia_Pocketpod.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Solar Panel to power sending unit: http://www.harborfreight.com/15-watt-so ... 44768.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sensor mounted to lid, big hole in front, small hole in back to see LED, threaded hole on bottom. Line up initially by sighting along the sides and top of each, fine tune by looking at light on receiver. Small enough that they don't seem to be effected by wind unless very strong, then just put a small weight on it. Less than $15 invested so no big deal if crunched by a car, and so small and lightweight that they don't damage cars if hit. Usually the only thing broken is the $5 tripod.

The sensors seem to be nearly indestructible and I've bought most on eBay for 50-90% off retail. Since we have sun 99.5% of the time in SoCal, using the little solar panels for sensor power works really well, higher and more constant voltage than a battery (which we still have for backup) which seems to allow increased distance between sensors, and you don't have to remember to charge them.

[Will Kalman]

Murray, did you get my email?

[Murray Peterson]

Murray, did you get my email?

Nope. I'll PM you.