Cal Club grid process could use tweaking...

[Ed Holley]

My reference to "Nationals-style" was only because others had used the term earlier. All I know is that whatever we used last June at El Toro seemed to work pretty well...I think.

You'll be able to experience the fully staffed Nationals style grid at the San Diego tour in April. PSCC will do it at the next event in March. We have a Nationals grid expert, so if you want to learn how to do it, be there.

I'm already registered for both.

[Ed Holley]

As someone who has put on more events than anyone else in the region the past three years including using both types of grid set ups, I personally don't endorse using a national style grid for local events so I'm not going to be the driver here. Doesn't mean I'm right. Before doing anything as EM, I carefully weigh out the options and try to foresee problems. Using my experience as a guide, my opinion is it's more trouble than it's worth.

So that said, those of you who want this, prove me wrong.

BTW, we did try using national style grids as the standard several years ago. There is a reason we no longer go to the trouble. It was a PITA.

So like I said folks, don't stand on the sidelines. If you want this to happen, get involved and push to get it done.

George, I guess I don't get it, as usual. Others here have indicated it worked quite well in Calgary, Chicago, Washington and, I thought, El Toro. But it's a PITA here?
Hmmm...Another one bites the dust...???

[Ed Holley]

My reference to "Nationals-style" was only because others had used the term earlier. All I know is that whatever we used last June at El Toro seemed to work pretty well...I think.

You'll be able to experience the fully staffed Nationals style grid at the San Diego tour in April. PSCC will do it at the next event in March. We have a Nationals grid expert, so if you want to learn how to do it, be there.

I'm already registered for both.

BTW, I'm surprised we only have one Nationals grid expert. Who is he or she? Maybe they could head up the sub-committee along with us volunteers.

[Aaron Goldsmith]

BTW, I'm surprised we only have one Nationals grid expert. Who is he or she? Maybe they could head up the sub-committee along with us volunteers.

You're taking the jokes as reality.

We've done this style grid at local events a bunch of times.. just not much in the last few years. There used to be a few folks who thought anything derived from the national process was evil. It just takes more setup, an extra volunteer and the coarse designer to work it in,

[Rick Brown]

True Nats style is like this I believe:

Note the way the numbers run to see how the grid person walks.

[Ed Holley]

You're taking the jokes as reality.

To take it as a joke, one has to recognize it as a joke.

[Max Hayter]

coarse designer

I thought the last event's designer was very well shaven!

[Ed Holley]

coarse designer

I thought the last event's designer was very well shaven!

Does anyone here actually have a job? You know, one in which there's no time for frivolity during business hours.

[Max Hayter]

Does anyone here actually have a job? You know, one in which there's no time for frivolity during business hours.

One should always make time for sheer genius!

[Kurt Rahn]

coarse designer

I thought the last event's designer was very well shaven!

Oy, homonym jokes! Only an Englishman could get away with that.

[James Yom]

If I can attend the sunday event next time, I'll set up early that morning, but if QV or anyone else wants to do it for the practice, it's SUPER easy. If you wanna make a grid for 30 cars, All you need to do is make 2 rows of cones, 16 cones each, space the 2 rows about 12 feet apart, and each cone spaced 8-9 feet apart. Block off grid so that people can't just drive in (but that's optional). We will always start the LEFT row first, and therefore will grid the two driver cars on the FIRST 10 spots in grid. That way we always know where the 2 drivers go, and the order of the grid. During the drivers meeting, announce the grid we're doing and tell the drivers to park at an angle, like a one way parking lot. To make things easier, we'll have a couple cars parked in grid to show what we're talking about.

Here's my diagram, best Icould do with my keyboard:

Code: Select all

      ................................................
      :                                              :
      :              \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ :                    
 entrance                                            to start
      :              / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / :
      :                                              :
      ..         .....................................
         from finish 

[Ed Holley]

Does anyone here actually have a job? You know, one in which there's no time for frivolity during business hours.

One should always make time for sheer genius!

See, because I'm in the awards business I occasionally need to be creative with thin metals. In which case, I'm a shear genius.

[Rick Brown]

If I can attend the sunday event next time, I'll set up early that morning, but if QV or anyone else wants to do it for the practice, it's SUPER easy. If you wanna make a grid for 30 cars, All you need to do is make 2 rows of cones, 16 cones each, space the 2 rows about 12 feet apart, and each cone spaced 8-9 feet apart. Block off grid so that people can't just drive in (but that's optional). We will always start the LEFT row first, and therefore will grid the two driver cars on the FIRST 10 spots in grid. That way we always know where the 2 drivers go, and the order of the grid. During the drivers meeting, announce the grid we're doing and tell the drivers to park at an angle, like a one way parking lot. To make things easier, we'll have a couple cars parked in grid to show what we're talking about.

Here's my diagram, best Icould do with my keyboard:

Code: Select all

      ................................................
      :                                              :
      :              \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ :                    
 entrance                                            to start
      :              / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / :
      :                                              :
      ..         .....................................
         from finish 

The next event is PSCC hosted (your club) and we will do a national style grid. But take this to the PSCC forum to discuss how and who will do it.

[Jayson Woodruff]

Plus, with our national events coming up it would be helpful for new folks to become familiar with that arrangement.

BTW, the ProSolo doesn't use a 'National's' style grid. But then it's a whole different beast when it comes to run cycling.

Jay W

[Bill Schenker]

El Toro lends itself very well to "Nationals" style grids because of the way El Toro is set up (runways).

[Mike Simanyi]

I agree with Bill - this could work at El Toro.

The biggest problem with nationals-style gridding is the acreage required. It takes a *lot* more space to make this work - more than double the area. That's not a problem at El Toro, but it certainly can cut into the course at AAA Speedway.

On top of that it also introduces more traffic complexity, which could lead to more safety incidents. Tours and Nationals have Grid Traffic assignments for a reason. We don't have the luxury of sufficient participants to provide that without compromising the quality of our coursework.

I don't know if it's already been mentioned in this thread or the one about single-drivers vs multi-drivers, but I understand part of the grid problem - particularly in Group 3 - was caused by a lane being shut down due to an oil leak. That can wreak havoc on grid management...

Mike

[Eric Clements]

but I understand part of the grid problem - particularly in Group 3 - was caused by a lane being shut down due to an oil leak. That can wreak havoc on grid management...

Another advantage of a national style grid, if a car has issues it is easy/seamless to pass it up and go on to the next car.
The other problem with group 3 was people were expecting a worker changeover after Fj since they now have their own course worker crew.

I don't buy the national style grid as being less safe. How is it safer to have more cars moving and more people wandering around grid gathering up their stuff to bring it to to a new grid space after every run?

If space is that much of a concern a double deep home space system is way better than pull-up, stop, pull-up, stop...

And for clubs thet just can't be bothered, just turn the grid sideways. 10 lines of 4 instead of 4 lines of 10.

[Doug Kott]

Does anyone here actually have a job? You know, one in which there's no time for frivolity during business hours.

One should always make time for sheer genius!

Or shear genius, if you're not clean shaven.

Sorry, Ed, late to the punchline...didn't see your post before I posted!!

[Steve Towers]

Anyone have an idea for width and length to allow for each car in a nationals style grid? How about lane width?

[Craig Naylor]

Anyone have an idea for width and length to allow for each car in a nationals style grid? How about lane width?

Bill S. can attest to this better than I can because he was officially in charge for several years. I helped a few times before he took the task on. In the case of the S D National Tour, the National staff tells you how many grid spots they will need in advance in the largest run group, because they know in advance their total entry (save one or two onsite signups cancellations.) You then lay it out, massaging it to get both grids to fit (remember you have an A & B grid.) Space length, width, etc varies to some extent based upon how many spots you need, and the space left for you. There is no cookie cutter formula. It varies every year. Sometimes spaces are nice and wide, sometime you take two shots to get your Miata into the space, not because the space is to narrow, but because the isle was. Etc, etc, etc.

Let me preface I personally like the format. It has been used both in SD and LA off, and on over the years. But it has way more negatives than positives in my personal opinion.

Some of your complaints don't go away.

1.)People still pull into your spot. (Always happens)
2.)People still dump oil, and you have to go around it. With this format, it can actually be more difficult go go around than just moving over a lane. You may actually have to move the entire grid, when they drop an entire line down the middle of what was the drive lane. (Though rare, has happened more than once.)
3.)You HAVE TO chalk it. No way around it. If you don't every other car WILL FIND A WAY to pull between cones some way other than intended. (Note every National Tour is chalked, every Nat Tour I have attended has cars facing the wrong way, sitting across chalk lines anyway. People are just stupid, what else can you say!?)
4.) It takes twice the space, as it has to be set up to work for start and finish lines both days, without moving, as we often do, and can easily change for our "line" system we normally use. Personally I'd rather more space be given to the course, than grid. But I may be in the minority.
5.) We don't have the benefit of total entry numbers of our biggest run group. How often have you attended an event were the lines are not long enough, and cars are piled out the back of the lanes. Some times we deal with it, sometimes we have the benefit of adding an additional lane. You just can't easily add spaces in a Nat style as you can a line style if your estimate of the biggest group is off.
6.) And this is the biggie that IMHO is why we don't do it more often. Unlike Nat. events with a person sitting on your car with a stopwatch, and / or a DQ if you don't go in order, 2 driver cars go even less often. There is no pressure of the line behind them waiting to go out, so they take more time, and in return run groups take even longer.

I personally quit Chairing events because of number 5. I got tired of badgering, and the gruff I received in return while a limited few of our two driver long timers held up events, because there was no pressure for them to return to the course. For this one reason alone, because we have no teeth to force cars (drivers) out when they want more time, and we no longer need them to move out of the way, I'm against going back to Nat style grids.

[George Schilling]

For grid layout the ideal space is 12' wide and 15' long. Lanes have to be wide enough for the back tire to clear the marker cones before turning a larger car with wide tires, a minimum of 16' works well.

Craig, I'm with you. I too, prefer national style grids, however, apparently memories are short and folks don't remember (or want to remember) the problems we had when using national style grids for local events. Funny thing is, the problems we had at the last autox Sunday would have been even worse using that system. With either style, it boils down to having a person who understands the grid and what needs to be accomplished to run it properly. That includes initial staging and identifying problems before the group begins. This is much more chaotic with a nation style system, especially with one person running the grid. Running a grid with lines is far easier for everyone to understand and the chances of success much greater. Instead of guys walking up and down the line complaining about how their being overlooked, they'll be leaving their grid space and driving to the head of the line waving, "it's my turn". But it looks like we'll have to learn those lessons all over again.

And this doesn't consider the additional time it takes to design and set-up a proper grid. Oh wait a minute......it's easy......I forgot! :mrt:

[John Stimson]

For this one reason alone, because we have no teeth to force cars (drivers) out when they want more time, and we no longer need them to move out of the way, I'm against going back to Nat style grids.

The car can lose its run if it doesn't run when it is time to go. I've never seen a multi-driver car that was holding up the event, where they cared that they were delaying the cars behind them.

I like Eric's idea of turning the grid sideways. There's a little more wasted space -- maybe -- because your lanes won't be exactly 2 or three cars long. But it won't take as much space as a full-on row/lane/row/lane angled setup. And you don't have to chalk it.

[George Schilling]

For this one reason alone, because we have no teeth to force cars (drivers) out when they want more time, and we no longer need them to move out of the way, I'm against going back to Nat style grids.

The car can lose its run if it doesn't run when it is time to go. I've never seen a multi-driver car that was holding up the event, where they cared that they were delaying the cars behind them.

It's impractical to try that locally John. Sometimes the run groups are just too small, especially near the end of a small run group. We are more about having fun, or should be, at the local level. Nationally, at least you have the five minute rule. For Joey and I, we need about 5 minutes to swap.....and that's rushing.

[John Stimson]

It's impractical to try that locally John. Sometimes the run groups are just too small, especially near the end of a small run group. We are more about having fun, or should be, at the local level. Nationally, at least you have the five minute rule. For Joey and I, we need about 5 minutes to swap.....and that's rushing.

I was just responding to Craig's statement that there wasn't anything to do about people who are dragging their feet. If it's an actual problem that you want to do something about, then you can enforce it. If not, then lets not entertain complaints about people taking too long...

You're guaranteed 5 minutes between runs in the rules, anyway. And threats can be so effective that you never actually have to carry them out.

[George Schilling]

It's impractical to try that locally John. Sometimes the run groups are just too small, especially near the end of a small run group. We are more about having fun, or should be, at the local level. Nationally, at least you have the five minute rule. For Joey and I, we need about 5 minutes to swap.....and that's rushing.

I was just responding to Craig's statement that there wasn't anything to do about people who are dragging their feet. If it's an actual problem that you want to do something about, then you can enforce it. If not, then lets not entertain complaints about people taking too long...

You're guaranteed 5 minutes between runs in the rules, anyway.

The key for the grid chief is to act in a reasonable manner. I agree that any whining about it is counter productive.