Stock Market

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Giovanni Jaramillo
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Re: Stock Market

Post by Giovanni Jaramillo »

Bob Beamesderfer wrote:
Steve Ekstrand wrote:There are execs that make what that little retreat cost in a day.

Those pwrichz probably had no clue they were doing anything wrong or insulting or immoral. They are so out of touch with reality they probably thought there were properly slumming it....
After all, it wasn't the south of France. :evil:
Did you hear the response from AIG? Oh we had this planned months in advance to treat our top salesmen for great sales numbers for the past year. But we do understand that perception is sometimes reality.

Duh? You think!
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Re: Stock Market

Post by Bob Beamesderfer »

Dow down 679 today. Last 20 minutes or so of trading included a small dead-cat bounce and a huge spike in volume. :shock:

Year-over-year, the Dow is down 39.4%

Can't wait til tomorrow. Like Samuel L. Jackson said in "Jurassic Park," "Hold on to your butts." }:)
Last edited by Bob Beamesderfer on Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stock Market

Post by Mike Simanyi »

I was wrong yesterday. Paulson spoke, and I told my bidness partner the market would drop 300 points today because of it.

When I saw it was down 189 around 11:30 or 12:00, I thought I was still in the ballpark. Damn. Time to stop the short selling again.

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Re: Stock Market

Post by Sebastian Rios »

Buy Buy Buy!
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Re: Stock Market

Post by Christine Grice »

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... wanted=all" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Headline from September 30th, 1999:

Fannie Mae Eases Credit To Aid Mortgage Lending
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Re: Stock Market

Post by Steve Ekstrand »

Looks like final number is 678 down. Thats dow 8579. We are now down 39.6% from the peak closing price (14,198). A forty percent drop from the high's. I figure I'm down right at 50% from my high. Getting a little brutalized because of the energy bias. All the money I spent for toys and home remodel and debt reduction was out of my equities account, so that slowly biased me the last 18 months towards the cash tied up. Good thing in retrospect. Wouldn't have thought so last year when I was up so much the previous 18 months. I figure Stacey's family trusts are down a million dollars on a single stock alone. Of course, that single stock, Chevron, is way too big a holding for them. Not so much anymore.... :( That's called unintentional portfolio rebalancing. Major :(

I thought when we had the first 778 down on the busted deal that that might be a bottom. I resisted answering Seb's quandry's that day, because frankly when things are this ugly I fear giving advice, its too hard right now. And I've always been good id'ing flyers and the good future momo stocks. I've beaten the market every positive market year I've followed it since I was a student. I usually beat the market in slightly down years. But in go bust years, I go bust. I killed the market in 85 and 86. I got wiped out in 87. And I killed the market again in 88. So, anytime I see a potential bear market I try to tread lightly. I just didn't see the market going down another 15% after that bad day. So, I jumped in with a silly bet on some of my worst hit stocks. I made 25% on that the first couple of days on mixed market days. But then got killed on it, probably down 25% now or more on that bet. Ouch! That wasn't that big of hit relative to my overall net worth, but it does reinforce the idea that I should never try to catch the flying daggars. I just don't have the bear market gene. I'm good at valuations and trends. I'm not good at irrational panic.

I believe its out of control now. I'm not sure they can save it. All American car companies will go bankrupt without major intervention. It would appear that Toyota is getting way way uglier than anybody would have dreamed possible. Who can afford a car? And why would anybody buy a new car with an endless flood of nearly new luxury cars flooding the auctions and used lots? I'm thinking about bailing on our 335 and buying a used M3 instead. Even a new 2008 M3 might get a better deal than my corporate wholesale deal on the 335, because of the .9% financing available. BMW has been doing great even as other companies are dying, yet suddenly last month they were down 30%. Its tough to trust that any company is safe.

The biggest investors in the US market are insurance companies and as they lose 40+% of their portfolio value they have to recapitalize or they are basically shutdown. That is happening across the board. Banks like BofA that I thought were bulletproof still have to raise capital to fit within the feds plans of picking up distressed assets and to build reserves for new business. Yet the latest BofA $10 Billion offer had trouble. If BofA can't raise capital, what bank can? That tosses every bank and insurance company into doubt now worldwide.

The futures are stable afterhours, so the US sell off isn't still in freefall, but I'm pretty spooked. There is so much collateral damage from all this right now, that I'm not sure what can be trusted in terms of banks, brokerages, etc. I'm afraid of muni bonds which are the hottest investment going right now, and where I planned to put 30% of the trusts held in probate when they clear. But I'm worried about a wave of municipal bankruptcies now.

Trillions of dollars in net worth have been wiped out. That will put a drag on consumption for years. Deleveraging will contract the supply side and reduce jobs further crushing demand. Its a vicious cycle that doesn't just go away because you assume full employment (sorry-vague Keynes joke mocking the classical economists pre-1939).

The only solution is massive overwhelming government intervention worldwide. I have libertarian leanings too, but I'll never commit fully, because I understand as an economist that pure capitalism doesn't work. Pure capitalism is brutal. Its funny that so many small business people and entrepreneurial types embrace libertarianism. They don't understand that under pure capitalism they would not exist. On a pure capitalist libertarian game board the biggest bully would make the rules, enforce the rules and own the game.

I favor competition. But that requires rules and somebody to enforce the rules and decide disputes fairly. Some government regulation and intervention is necessary. Imagine trying to hold a Superbowl or World Series without any referees or umpires? But that said, the ref's and ump's shouldn't become to big an element in the game.

Because we've had an imperfect system to this point on so many levels... Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac clearly demonstrate the unintended consequences of government intervention in free markets. But its done. The market is now broken and can't fix itself. You have to intervene, even though intervention is partially to blame for getting you in the mess to begin with. You can't argue about what should have been done, you have to fix the problem you're in immediately to get the game going again. Then when things are moving under their own power you figure out what needs to be changed so it doesn't crash again. These mortgage securities got AA and AAA ratings ratings. That is just completely fraudulent. The umpires and referees were not asleep, they were locked out of the stadium. An example of the lack of government regulation that caused a market failure. So, where we stand today is the result of both government intervention creating a market failure and deregulation creating a disaster. There has to be a balance. The game needs rules to make it worth playing. It needs fair and unintrusive enforcement that fosters competition. That's where we need to be in the future. What we need now is to keep the game running. We have to figure out the fastest way to keep it alive. That requires massive and immediate mindblowing intervention. Insane, I know, and unlikely to work very well, but it has too. And too costly? The burden is on the taxpayers? Our great grandchildren??? Think this through. All your whining and complaining will do nothing to protect the kiddies. The damage is done, the question is how to minimize the damage.

We have taken trillions of dollars in value out of our markets, just erased it. What is the tax revenue loss on that? We are facing the very real threat of losing maybe as much as 4 trillion dollars a year in GDP. What is the tax revenue loss there? And through it all we face the prospects of a dramatic decrease in the standard of living. So, $700 Billion bailout? Another trillion dollars in treasury interventions and bailouts??? If we spend $2 trillion on trying to fix this collapse is it really that costly to the taxpayers? Not if it even partially works. If we do nothing we may cost the taxpayers a lot more than $2 trillion.

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
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Re: Stock Market

Post by John Coffey »

Shoot, that's nothing. I just lit the interior of a Mustang on fire - pretty good way to concentrate the mind. Luckily its getting stripped anyway. The shop stinks now.
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Re: Stock Market

Post by Mike Simanyi »

Christine Berry wrote:http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... wanted=all

Headline from September 30th, 1999:

Fannie Mae Eases Credit To Aid Mortgage Lending
Huh... kinda prescient:

''From the perspective of many people, including me, this is another thrift industry growing up around us,'' said Peter Wallison a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. ''If they fail, the government will have to step up and bail them out the way it stepped up and bailed out the thrift industry.''
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Re: Stock Market

Post by Marshall Grice »

so is there where we have exxon-mobil come in and write a check to cover this whole disaster? I figure they got a couple trillion laying around after all of their hooker and blow parties? :roll:
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Re: Stock Market

Post by Bob Beamesderfer »

Some numbers on local stocks here:

http://www.laobserved.com/biz/2008/10/t ... ath_aw.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not for the squeamish.
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Re: Stock Market

Post by Mike Simanyi »

Marshall Grice wrote:so is there where we have exxon-mobil come in and write a check to cover this whole disaster? I figure they got a couple trillion laying around after all of their hooker and blow parties? :roll:
Exxon-Mobil for Vice Chair!!
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Re: Stock Market

Post by David Barrish »

Everyone, take a deep breath.

There are a few things we all do every day.

1. Turn on the lights.
2. Use the phone.
3. Buy food.
4. Put gas in the car.
5. Brush your teeth.

Pick your company and buy the stock.

DB
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Re: Stock Market

Post by Steve Ekstrand »

Mike Simanyi wrote:
''From the perspective of many people, including me, this is another thrift industry growing up around us,'' said Peter Wallison a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. ''If they fail, the government will have to step up and bail them out the way it stepped up and bailed out the thrift industry.''
That quote would have been interesting like a year ago. We are way way past that now. My career plans were wiped out by the RTC plan when they changed the rules mid-game on Landmark land and Oak Tree Savings. We are already at the level of danger we were then if not well past. And this one is global and involves far more collateral damage than that go round.

Japan down more than 10%. Aussie's down 7%.

I'm really not all that concerned with the stock market. Excrement happens. But if the banks and insurance companies dry up, its eat dirt time.
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Re: Stock Market

Post by Bob Beamesderfer »

Down 686 at the open, bounced back to -238
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Re: Stock Market

Post by Steve Ekstrand »

Down 700
Blow past the magic 850 S&P target number all the techies have been looking for to call a bottom....
Snap back too positive a 100.
Now fade back down 300...

I wonder if the fade off is delayed margin wash outs or delayed panic capitulation. Wake up, commute to work, listen to radio "DOWN 700!!!", get to work, log into Schwab, DUMP, SELL, BARF.....

I think we're near a bottom. Either that or we aren't.
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Re: Stock Market

Post by Steve Ekstrand »

Why is there any value on the shares of AIG, Freddie Mac, or Fannie Mae?
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Re: Stock Market

Post by Bob Beamesderfer »

Steve Ekstrand wrote:Why is there any value on the shares of AIG, Freddie Mac, or Fannie Mae?
Those left who are hoping Buffet's right. The Dow touched a low not seen in five and a half years before bobbing to the surface.

The chart pattern looks a lot like yesterday.
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Re: Stock Market

Post by Bob Beamesderfer »

It's credit-default swap day for those holding what's left of Lehman Bros. Pimco and AIG are two of the big players in the game. Could be very bad.

Bloomberg:
Settlement of Lehman contracts may lead to protection sellers paying out as much as $220 billion, assuming a 20 percent recovery on the U.S. bank's senior debt, according to Andrea Cicione, a London-based credit strategist at BNP Paribas SA. "Banks can go to the Federal Reserve, or use the commercial paper market where it is still functioning" to meet protection payments, said Cicione. "But fund managers r hedge funds, once they've used their cash, have only one option, to sell assets."
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Re: Stock Market

Post by Steve Ekstrand »

Goldman labeled a negative. Ouch. Goldman in serious risk.

Still I'm screening stocks for the lowest PEG ratios I can find. My portfolio avg is approaching .5 right now. Screen for under .6 and with each stock ask yourself if that company can still finance operations and still make money in a recession. I think investments in those companies will payoff over the next 1-3 years.
Last edited by Steve Ekstrand on Fri Oct 10, 2008 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stock Market

Post by Giovanni Jaramillo »

This is all depressing. :barf:
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Re: Stock Market

Post by Marshall Grice »

Steve Ekstrand wrote:Goldman labeled a negative. Ouch. Goldman in serious risk.

Still I'm screening stocks for the lowest PEG ratios I can find. My portfolio avg is approaching .5 right now. Screen for under .6 and with each stock as yourself if that company can still finance operations and still make money in a recession. I think investments in those companies will payoff over the next 1-3 years.
So i assume from you using the PEG to rate stocks that you're expecting all of these companies to actually grow?
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Re: Stock Market

Post by Mike Simanyi »

Giovanni Jaramillo wrote:This is all depressing. :barf:
No... this is all opportunity!

It's human nature to overreact. That's why we have bubbles, and this is just the opposite. Find the companies that are fundamentally healthy, buy them at a bargain price and don't sweat the gyrations.

Mike
Last edited by Mike Simanyi on Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stock Market

Post by Marshall Grice »

Mike Simanyi wrote:
Giovanni Jaramillo wrote:This is all depressing. :barf:
No... this is all opportunity!

It's human nature to overreact. That's why we have bubbles, and this is just the opposite. Find the companies that are fundamentally health, buy them at a bargain price and don't sweat the gyrations.

Mike
assuming you have any money left to buy these great deals with....
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Re: Stock Market

Post by Mike Simanyi »

Marshall Grice wrote:
assuming you have any money left to buy these great deals with....
Now that I have to pay full price for my In-N-Out...
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Re: Stock Market

Post by Bob Beamesderfer »

This could be the Christmas that a lump of coal is a useful gift, provided you have something to burn it in.
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